Parents Multiple repeat level 3s who train 16 hours per week

[ChalkFullOfLove]

I just learned that there’s a training group of 8 gymnasts who all repeated Level 3 at our gym a year ago. They train 16 hours per week which is on the high end for level 3s, so I was surprised that so many had to repeat. I can’t help but wonder if this points to a larger issue with the coaching or the development program.

My daughter is not part of that group. She just completed her first competitive season as a Level 3. A couple of months ago, her coaches mentioned that they anticipate holding a bunch of her group back for next season. My daughter and her group also train 16 hours per week. I’m okay with her repeating Level 3 if she genuinely needs more time, but I want to make sure it's not due to weak coaching. She puts a lot of time and effort into gymnastics, and I want to be sure she’s in the best environment to grow and feel successful.

Also, my understanding is that upward mobility at this gym is based on skillset not on AA scores.

Has anyone experienced something similar at their gym? Would this situation raise any red flags for you?

 

[Coach Kate]

How are they scoring? That seems like a lot of hours for level 3. With that many hours, I would expect a lot of up training.

Having that many girls need to repeat level 3 is definitely raising my eyebrows. The kip is the big difference for level 4 and if you can't learn a kip in a year of 16 hours a week, I do think there could be a coaching issue.

 

[ORgymmom]

Sounds like our old gym.

When I encountered this years ago, it took me a long time to understand and only in hindsight and after a gym change. Now that we have spent time elsewhere and I’ve watched other cohorts come through the ranks, I understand it more.

In our case the gym was excellent at polishing optionals from elsewhere and identifying future elites, but inexperienced with creating compulsory athletes from scratch, especially teaching basic 3 and 4 skills. There were just enough extremely talented girls who broke through that they never had to question their own coaching experience and instead blamed athletes and parents for repeats. From mymeetscores, I can see that the only girls who made it to level 6 who we know from those years tested out of 4 and 5. Everyone else got stuck in 4 or 5 in spite of high scores and left the sport. Our new gym can get any warm body through level 6/7 if they’re willing to put in the work.

There was also a shortage of coaches and crowding issue so some girls would be held at level 3 or 4 due to space constraints but told it was because they didn’t meet the gym’s for the next level. Some years those requirements would change at the last minute (also in hindsight due to space constraints or accepting new girls at the next level)- so to train 5 you needed to have level 6 or 7 skills. This created a crunch for girls trying to move to 4. I also realized when we switched gyms how badly rotations and practice schedules were managed. There was a lot of standing around and often not enough coaches to go around.

When some people did speak up and ask questions, the girls who were scoring 38s were held up as proof that everything was fine. Those girls could have scored 38s trained by my dog in our backyard!

I would be wary of staying in a program like that, and I say that as a parent of an athlete who was at a gym that did 16 hours for level 3 and still had repeats and some big skill gaps. It might be fine for the top 2-3 athletes in the group but you’ll see a ton of attrition from the rest of the group over the next couple of years.

 

[Lobster]

I think it depends what repeating a year of level 3 looks like at your gym. Is the second year spent mostly working upgrades because the intention is to then do level 4 while being ready to score out of 5 and hop to level 6 that same season?

I see some gyms around here using that formula. 1st year level 3, 2nd year level 3, 3rd year level 4 in the fall, score out of 5 and then be level 6 in January.

I’ve also experienced gyms moving through the compulsory levels at a snails pace because there is not space/coaching in the levels above. The gym doesn’t and can’t take kids into the higher optional levels so the longer they keep clients in compulsory levels, the longer they keep you as a client. Most kids won’t make it to upper optionals anyway, so this works for the gym. Eventually from going to meets you will figure out they can’t offer the upper levels and move on if your child is headed that direction.

 

[ChalkFullOfLove]

How are they scoring? That seems like a lot of hours for level 3. With that many hours, I would expect a lot of up training.

Having that many girls need to repeat level 3 is definitely raising my eyebrows. The kip is the big difference for level 4 and if you can't learn a kip in a year of 16 hours a week, I do think there could be a coaching issue.

Thanks for your response! I thought there'd be more up training as well with that many hours. On average, they score in the 35 - 36 range. A few still don't have their kip. After nearly a year on the team, my daughter only got her kip recently and it's not yet consistent.

 

[GymDadWA]

Might be as simple as until you have certain skills like Kip, BHS BHS, Cartwheel on Beam, etc. you can't move up. Then the question is if those are the restrictions why aren't the gymnast able to develop those skills training that much.

 

[Gymgirl84]

I think for such high hours, there might some issue if many are still not scoring pretty high and not getting some of the upper level skills.
I'm in EU but my team is close in level to 3-4-gold and this year all of them got their kip with 9 hours a week. Some got it pretty early on and have been competing it this year, some have got it recently and it's still in the clean up process but they'll be competing it next season.

 

[Coach Kate]

Thanks for your response! I thought there'd be more up training as well with that many hours. On average, they score in the 35 - 36 range. A few still don't have their kip. After nearly a year on the team, my daughter only got her kip recently and it's not yet consistent.

Yeah I'd honestly be expecting either 38s or that they'd have their level 4 or even 5/6 skills with that many hours. Level 3 is just really basic so if you have that many hours a week, it should be enough to either be scoring 9.5+ (hyper attention to detail, including routine text, but also immaculate form on basics) or a ton of uptraining.

If I were you, I would look into some other programs in your area. Your daughter may still repeat level 3, but I think you're probably wasting a lot of time in your/her life. It's really good in the lower levels especially to maybe do another sport or activity - swimming and dance are great compliments to gymnastics, but really it could be anything. It's just too many hours and it seems like they're either very inefficient or ineffective, or some combinations.

 

[ChalkFullOfLove]

Sounds like our old gym.

When I encountered this years ago, it took me a long time to understand and only in hindsight and after a gym change. Now that we have spent time elsewhere and I’ve watched other cohorts come through the ranks, I understand it more.

In our case the gym was excellent at polishing optionals from elsewhere and identifying future elites, but inexperienced with creating compulsory athletes from scratch, especially teaching basic 3 and 4 skills. There were just enough extremely talented girls who broke through that they never had to question their own coaching experience and instead blamed athletes and parents for repeats. From mymeetscores, I can see that the only girls who made it to level 6 who we know from those years tested out of 4 and 5. Everyone else got stuck in 4 or 5 in spite of high scores and left the sport. Our new gym can get any warm body through level 6/7 if they’re willing to put in the work.

There was also a shortage of coaches and crowding issue so some girls would be held at level 3 or 4 due to space constraints but told it was because they didn’t meet the gym’s for the next level. Some years those requirements would change at the last minute (also in hindsight due to space constraints or accepting new girls at the next level)- so to train 5 you needed to have level 6 or 7 skills. This created a crunch for girls trying to move to 4. I also realized when we switched gyms how badly rotations and practice schedules were managed. There was a lot of standing around and often not enough coaches to go around.

When some people did speak up and ask questions, the girls who were scoring 38s were held up as proof that everything was fine. Those girls could have scored 38s trained by my dog in our backyard!

I would be wary of staying in a program like that, and I say that as a parent of an athlete who was at a gym that did 16 hours for level 3 and still had repeats and some big skill gaps. It might be fine for the top 2-3 athletes in the group but you’ll see a ton of attrition from the rest of the group over the next couple of years.

Thanks for sharing your experience and advice. It's helpful to get input from other people in the gymnastics community so that I know I'm not just being too critical. I feel the gymnasts should have more to show for the 16 hours per week. If it were just 2-3 gymnasts per year, that would feel different. And yes, there are big skill gaps in the training group as well. I am still not sure of the reason for the slow development, whether it's not enough room for mobility, lack of coaching skill/ training, etc., but during the few times I get the chance to watch practice, I have noticed that there is a lot of standing around.

 

[ChalkFullOfLove]

I think it depends what repeating a year of level 3 looks like at your gym. Is the second year spent mostly working upgrades because the intention is to then do level 4 while being ready to score out of 5 and hop to level 6 that same season?

I see some gyms around here using that formula. 1st year level 3, 2nd year level 3, 3rd year level 4 in the fall, score out of 5 and then be level 6 in January.

I’ve also experienced gyms moving through the compulsory levels at a snails pace because there is not space/coaching in the levels above. The gym doesn’t and can’t take kids into the higher optional levels so the longer they keep clients in compulsory levels, the longer they keep you as a client. Most kids won’t make it to upper optionals anyway, so this works for the gym. Eventually from going to meets you will figure out they can’t offer the upper levels and move on if your child is headed that direction.

Thanks for your input. I don't get the sense that our gym has that strategy but I'll ask what the plan is if my daughter has to repeat 3.

 

[ChalkFullOfLove]

Might be as simple as until you have certain skills like Kip, BHS BHS, Cartwheel on Beam, etc. you can't move up. Then the question is if those are the restrictions why aren't the gymnast able to develop those skills training that much.

Yes, thank you! That's what I've been wondering as well. How can they train 16 hours a week and not get those skills.

 

[ChalkFullOfLove]

Yeah I'd honestly be expecting either 38s or that they'd have their level 4 or even 5/6 skills with that many hours. Level 3 is just really basic so if you have that many hours a week, it should be enough to either be scoring 9.5+ (hyper attention to detail, including routine text, but also immaculate form on basics) or a ton of uptraining.

If I were you, I would look into some other programs in your area. Your daughter may still repeat level 3, but I think you're probably wasting a lot of time in your/her life. It's really good in the lower levels especially to maybe do another sport or activity - swimming and dance are great compliments to gymnastics, but really it could be anything. It's just too many hours and it seems like they're either very inefficient or ineffective, or some combinations.

Thank you for saying this! It's helpful to hear that I'm not crazy. If there was a nearby option with lower training hours for the lower levels, I'd take it. Unfortunately all the gyms in our area make their level 3s train 16 hours per week. I asked her this spring if she wants to stay in DP and she does. Since we are stuck with the 16 hours, I want it to be worth her time (and yes mine too! ). I would also love for her to play other sports and/ or do dance but I'm afraid of exhausting her now.

 

[StephensMom]

Sounds like our old gym.

When I encountered this years ago, it took me a long time to understand and only in hindsight and after a gym change. Now that we have spent time elsewhere and I’ve watched other cohorts come through the ranks, I understand it more.

In our case the gym was excellent at polishing optionals from elsewhere and identifying future elites, but inexperienced with creating compulsory athletes from scratch, especially teaching basic 3 and 4 skills. There were just enough extremely talented girls who broke through that they never had to question their own coaching experience and instead blamed athletes and parents for repeats. From mymeetscores, I can see that the only girls who made it to level 6 who we know from those years tested out of 4 and 5. Everyone else got stuck in 4 or 5 in spite of high scores and left the sport. Our new gym can get any warm body through level 6/7 if they’re willing to put in the work.

There was also a shortage of coaches and crowding issue so some girls would be held at level 3 or 4 due to space constraints but told it was because they didn’t meet the gym’s for the next level. Some years those requirements would change at the last minute (also in hindsight due to space constraints or accepting new girls at the next level)- so to train 5 you needed to have level 6 or 7 skills. This created a crunch for girls trying to move to 4. I also realized when we switched gyms how badly rotations and practice schedules were managed. There was a lot of standing around and often not enough coaches to go around.

When some people did speak up and ask questions, the girls who were scoring 38s were held up as proof that everything was fine. Those girls could have scored 38s trained by my dog in our backyard!

I would be wary of staying in a program like that, and I say that as a parent of an athlete who was at a gym that did 16 hours for level 3 and still had repeats and some big skill gaps. It might be fine for the top 2-3 athletes in the group but you’ll see a ton of attrition from the rest of the group over the next couple of years.

We had a very similar experience in a lot of ways at our first gym and I completely agree with your take on this.

In our case, my daughter had just finished a level 2 season. I had had some concerns about the gym structure and coaching but didn’t know any better as it was our first gymnastics experience. At the end of summer training, there were about 12 girls who had competed level 2 the year before and only 4 were moving to level 3. At that point, I thought this had to be a coaching/gym issue because how could they possibly have so many girls needing to repeat (or were told they needed to move to xcel)?? The girls who did move up were those who just had a lot of natural talent. If you questioned it, the coaches blamed the kids and/or parents. At that point, we decided to move to another gym in our area.

Fast forward 9 months, the new gym trains higher hours similar to what OP stated. Level 2 was 12 hours. Level 3 will be 16. My daughter did another level 2 year so we got to see what that looks like in a different gym and the change was dramatic. This new gym does a lot of up training and definitely expects everyone to be consistently scoring over 36 with their higher hours. Some were scoring 38+ consistently. Of the many level 2 and 3s, I expect only a couple of the youngest girls might repeat. The vast majority finished the competition season already having the skills for the next level. For my daughter, she is kind of on the cusp of doing either 3 or 4 next year. She will train 16 hours next year and it would be crazy for her to get through a year of that without being ready for level 4 and that’s assuming she doesn’t skip to level 4 right away. So to summarize this very long response, I would be very concerned with so many girls repeating level 3 after training 16 hours all year.

 

[Dahlialover]

I just learned that there’s a training group of 8 gymnasts who all repeated Level 3 at our gym a year ago. They train 16 hours per week which is on the high end for level 3s, so I was surprised that so many had to repeat. I can’t help but wonder if this points to a larger issue with the coaching or the development program.

My daughter is not part of that group. She just completed her first competitive season as a Level 3. A couple of months ago, her coaches mentioned that they anticipate holding a bunch of her group back for next season. My daughter and her group also train 16 hours per week. I’m okay with her repeating Level 3 if she genuinely needs more time, but I want to make sure it's not due to weak coaching. She puts a lot of time and effort into gymnastics, and I want to be sure she’s in the best environment to grow and feel successful.

Also, my understanding is that upward mobility at this gym is based on skillset not on AA scores.

Has anyone experienced something similar at their gym? Would this situation raise any red flags for you?

Are the girls in level 3 coming out of level 2, out of pre-team, or straight out of rec? It could be that the gym is not very selective about who they invite to join team and that many of the first-year level 3s would still be in preteam or rec at another gym. It’s possible that they are using the first season of level 3 as a substitute for preteam with the expectation that most of the gymnasts will stay there for 2 years. If the gym’s business plan is based on achieving a certain gymnast to coach ratio, it can be financially advantageous to move kids up prematurely to fill up a training group. What are the Coach: gymnastics ratios like? If it’s more than 12:1 then that could be the cause. The only thing that doesn’t jive is the 16 hours per week decision. It’s possible that the people making the decisions about training hours are imagining a team full of future D1 gymnasts when the reality is that the kids coming up through the program are the kind of kids who are likely to top out at level 4/Xcel Gold. Those kinds of disconnects do happen but it is not a good sign. If my child entered level 3 with a solid preteam foundation and could not get a kip and a double back handspring in a year training 16 hours per week, I’d move to xcel or to a new gym. 16 hours is too much for novice level gymnasts.

 

[Lobster]

I’m going to slightly disagree a bit on it being so crazy that a kid could not get a kip training 16 hours per week.

One of my daughters had to repeat level 3 because she had no kip after her first year of 3. She almost had to repeat level 3 a 3rd year because she still didn’t have her kip. She barely got it just in time to do level 4 and would still miss it at meets. It was a long 2 years waiting for that skill! It was just so hard for her!

She retired as a 12 year old level 9 so I don’t want anyone to think your gymnast can’t be successful if they struggle early on with a skill.

 

[StephensMom]

I’m going to slightly disagree a bit on it being so crazy that a kid could not get a kip training 16 hours per week.

One of my daughters had to repeat level 3 because she had no kip after her first year of 3. She almost had to repeat level 3 a 3rd year because she still didn’t have her kip. She barely got it just in time to do level 4 and would still miss it at meets. It was a long 2 years waiting for that skill! It was just so hard for her!

She retired as a 12 year old level 9 so I don’t want anyone to think your gymnast can’t be successful if they struggle early on with a skill.

I generally agree with you but I think it’s more concerning when a significant portion of the level 3s have to repeat and have been training 16 hours for the last year.

 

[Gym_momma]

I wouldn't be pleased if a significant number of gymnasts are repeating level 3 after 16 hours of training. I would want to have a closer look to understand why this is the case before making any changes. Are the groups too large? Are the gymnasts really young? How experienced are the coaches? Is there not enough time on certain equipment? If the kids are spending this much time then I think they deserve to be put into an environment that sets them up for success. Repeating isn't the end of the world if the overall development is ok, but I would investigate a bit myself.

 

[NutterButter]

I think it's reasonable to expect one or two in each cohort to need to repeat depending on factors such as when the child started gymnastics and how much uptraining is done. In many gyms upper level optionals train no more than 20 hours/week. More hours in the gym is not always better.