WAG Need advice

[Sasha]

Well from a gymnastics perspective I have to reiterate that we aren't comparing the same thing here. Moving from compulsories or into compulsories (level 3) is not the same as moving up in optional so to a higher optional level. As you go up the levels, the gap that you need to close per level is harder and harder to close in one year. Also, most gyms start competing in level 3, so moving INTO level 3 has the lower bar than moving OUT of level 3 or beyond. It's the first level. Similarly, some gyms have a more distinct line between compulsories and optional so where the compulsory program goes a lot less hours or practices in a much more "simple" way without much up training. If so, at these gyms, a child who is progressing very fast might be moved up to the first optional level quickly. That doesn't mean that it will be easy to move out of that level to 7 or 8.

My guess is the gym says OP's daughter needs giants for level 7 and she doesn't have giants. That doesn't mean they have a rule for moving from level 4 to level 6, it means they have a rule that you need giants for level 7.

Yep, I agree with all this. From a (new-ish) parent perspective, it's hard to understand those distinctions unless specifically explained. If a child/parent is told "Suzy can't move up unless she has all skills by x date (or whatever)", it sounds as if that is a hard and fast rule that should naturally apply across levels. Better, perhaps, would be "L7 requires Giants". But of course, there could be an exception there, too, if a gym wants to target a faster track for an otherwise exceptional girl, or a talented late starter, or whatever, and thinks she is close to giants or is amazing enough to score top 3 without giants and the team is weak this year - who knows. There always seem to be exceptions, even if the 'rules' are level-specific, and I support exceptions because gymnasts are individuals that won't all fit one mold. It's reconciling those exceptions with the supposed 'rule' that has been expressed that gets coaches' decisions questioned. Yet without any 'rules' at all gymnasts and parents are lost and have zero guidance on what to expect in terms of progressing through the ranks. Hence the darned-if-you-do-or-don't dilemma. I offer that 'rules' are really just guidelines, and may apply most of the time, but parents should not be surprised or upset if an individual decision goes 'against' any particular rule.

 

[munchkin3]

At ours, it's the BHS on beam.......AND Giants.....
The only exception are girls who came from other gyms, with fewer skills who already competed 7.

 

[gymdog]

Yep, I agree with all this. From a (new-ish) parent perspective, it's hard to understand those distinctions unless specifically explained. If a child/parent is told "Suzy can't move up unless she has all skills by x date (or whatever)", it sounds as if that is a hard and fast rule that should naturally apply across levels. Better, perhaps, would be "L7 requires Giants". But of course, there could be an exception there, too, if a gym wants to target a faster track for an otherwise exceptional girl, or a talented late starter, or whatever, and thinks she is close to giants or is amazing enough to score top 3 without giants and the team is weak this year - who knows. There always seem to be exceptions, even if the 'rules' are level-specific, and I support exceptions because gymnasts are individuals that won't all fit one mold. It's reconciling those exceptions with the supposed 'rule' that has been expressed that gets coaches' decisions questioned. Yet without any 'rules' at all gymnasts and parents are lost and have zero guidance on what to expect in terms of progressing through the ranks. Hence the darned-if-you-do-or-don't dilemma. I offer that 'rules' are really just guidelines, and may apply most of the time, but parents should not be surprised or upset if an individual decision goes 'against' any particular rule.

Oh, I don't have a problem with your post, just using it as a jumping off point.

 

[skidad]

One of the most important lessons for us parents is to learn not to fall into the trap of worrying what other kids are doing. All I can offer is how great your DD is getting a new teammate and it will strengthen the TEAM.....you should convey acceptance, and remind your DD the coaches have made their decision, and it's not for you or DD to get involved in....just embrace it.

I don't know why it is so hard for us parents to not get so involved in what OTHER kids are doing.....I guess we feel so proud of our own children, and we are so amazed at their talent, that we feel they are the best....or maybe we are afraid attention will be taken away from our own children only to be given to a less prepared kid.....maybe it's our own insecurities......or just plain old competitiveness.........I don't know, that is a question only you can answer.

It sounds like your DD is an amazing Level 6, almost L7 gymnast, who will have a great season. The more awesome talent your coaches pick to move up, is only good for the team.....the only way your DD can contribute, is by working hard for HER skills.....

I think every is missing my point. The other gymnast was brought up to show an inconsistency in the policy. I don't care what another kid is doing BUT when you give a blanket policy like the new move up policy and the gymnasts knows for a fact that there have been exceptions made it is logical to question everything. Especially when your 12. I agree with everyone with the exception of I think level 6 is a waste of you've done level 5. Honestly I would have rather the gym make her repeat. Maybe I don't trust the coaches anymore. Thanks everyone for your posts.

 

[skidad]

I agree with all the sentiments above about not worrying about the progress of other kids and making comparisons, despite that being impossibly hard to do as parents at times.

However, what I hear this Dad asking is more about the discrepancy between what coaches portray to parents and gymnasts as 'the rules for move-ups' to justify their decision for one child (his daughter), but then not following through on 'the rules' consistently for the rest of the team. The inconsistent message is the issue, not the decision to move some other kid on a faster track in comparison to his daughter.

And the fact is there can never be a consistent set of rules about move ups that will be in the best interest of every individual gymnast.

The coaches are pretty much "darned if they do" attempt to set out a consistent set of practices, because it won't be optimal for a few gymnasts who need a different path for their development (and other parents will understandably question the exceptions), and "darned if they don't" because parents will complain that move-ups are a mystery and coaches are non-communicative about policies.

I had the same confusion when my DD was told she couldn't do L4 last year because she didn't have 'all the skills' (her front handspring wasn't competition ready), yet half the L3's didn't even have a back handspring at all (required) and yet moved up. I was a little miffed because my amazing, dedicated, hard-working daughter was disappointed and there was no 'clear rule' to help her process and accept that. It didn't feel 'fair'.

I've now learned that across the board "rules", though well-intentioned, are actually "guidelines" and will always be broken to suit the individual, or or sometimes, the makeup of the team.

In case it helps, we have the same 'must have skills x months before season' general rule. Exceptions I have seen in our gym in the last 2 years have been:
- Level 3's in general often move up without several skills if the team isn't too big already
- 13 year old moved up to L4 without anything close to a kip. Otherwise she'd be with all the 8 year olds in L3.
- 11 year old mid-pack (slow and steady progressing) moved to L5 without back tumbling (she has been with same group of friends for many years and would probably quit if held back with the younger kids. She's taking lots of privates and making steady progress).
- Girl moved to L5 with stellar vault and bars, nice floor, but missing skills on beam.
- Girls NOT moved up to L5 (repeating L4) to have them ultimately skip 5 and uptrain for L7
- Girls NOT moved up to L5/6 to focus on TOPs

Just help your daughter understand that rules are actualy 'guidelines' and help her understand the difference.

I think you hit the nail on the head of what I was trying to convey. I wouldn't have an issue if it was explained how you just did. When I asked I got the standard response. How do I explain that to a 12 y/o who sees the exception when it was told there would be none.

 

[gymdog]

I think you hit the nail on the head of what I was trying to convey. I wouldn't have an issue if it was explained how you just did. When I asked I got the standard response. How do I explain that to a 12 y/o who sees the exception when it was told there would be none.

Why don't you focus on the skills she needs to move up to where she wants to go and what she can do to achieve them (extra conditioning, asking the coaches for additional feedback, additional practices, privates). Nothing would make me want to not move up your kid more than just whining about why someone else got a completely different level assignment instead of actually working on the skills I told your kid to get.

I'm not trying to be mean to you. I'm just trying to be straightforward because if you keep pushing this button, it's going to affect how the coaches view you and your kid. maybe the other kid is actively doing the things I mentioned instead of worrying about what other gymnasts have and don't have. There's nothing to explain. She just needs to get what the coaches told her to get, and if she doesn't understand why she doesn't have it or what would help, she needs to respectfully keep asking the coaches and show effort to prove she actually is committed to getting it.

 

[munchkin3]

Anyway, 'moving up' is BS anyway......you ARE the level you last competed at.

You can think the new girl IS level 6/7 but in reality she isn't. And your DD is at the level she competed in last.....
The rest is nonsense......just focus on the next meet......besides, it's never entirely fair.

 

[kayjaybe]

So here's another take on this. This happens at our gym, too, and a fellow parent FINALLY got a decent explanation on this.

Let's say several girls are trying to get to L7. The gym requires giants at that level. It is now September and the gym needs to start rostering girls for meets. 2 girls are close to getting their giants. Girl 1 has proven in the past to get skills at a quicker rate and is generally a good bars worker. Girl 2 is slower to get skills, especially on bars.

Coach takes a gamble and assumes girl 1 will have her giants by first competition in December, so he rosters her as a L7. He rosters the other girl as L6 (or 5). Unfortunately, it is now almost November and girl 2 has surprisingly gotten giants and is progressing nicely. Girl 1 had a fall on bars and now has fear issues and is struggling.

It seems unfair that girl 2 will compete a lower level even though she has giants and girl 1 is now going to compete L7 w/o the giants. Unfortunately, meet rosters often need to be in so early, a coach has to operate with the best info he has at the time the rosters are due.

This explanation is one that FINALLY made sense to me. Hopefully it gives you a different perspective, too.

 

[my4buffaloes]

Every gym will have different requirements. And unfortunately those "requirements" are not applied to everyone. It can be frustrating to watch. My dd has her giants AND her BHS on beam (competed it all last year as a level 5 actually). Yet is being told she will compete 6 all year. I don't understand and am trying to figure out how to handle it myself. So I am in the same boat as you. One thing I know though - is that the other girls do not matter in this situation. You have to stick with your dd only and stick to the facts. No comparing allowed. Good luck!

 

[GymCMLA]

A wise man once said....L6 vs L7 really matters very little....the goal is L8.
Lots of paths available along the journey to get to 8.

 

[skschlag]

I think every is missing my point. The other gymnast was brought up to show an inconsistency in the policy. I don't care what another kid is doing BUT when you give a blanket policy like the new move up policy and the gymnasts knows for a fact that there have been exceptions made it is logical to question everything. Especially when your 12. I agree with everyone with the exception of I think level 6 is a waste of you've done level 5. Honestly I would have rather the gym make her repeat. Maybe I don't trust the coaches anymore. Thanks everyone for your posts.

that is difficult. The feeling that you don't trust the coaches is one that is hard to shake, and unfortunately, will rub off on your dd. One thing i have learned over the years, and that I apply in my work, is that fair does not mean equal. And, in gym, that what is said is not always what is meant. coaches are in a hurry, and will try to address just singular issues in a quick conversation. what they don't always realize is that kids take these things as absolutes.

My ds repeated level 5, despite having all of his skills for level 6, better than the 2 boys that moved up to level 6. I never agreed with that decision. i was fuming. However, fast forward 5 years, and my ds is a decent level 9, and the other 2 are sitting at home on their bottoms playing video games. I am so glad that I trusted that coach, even though I was mad at him not following the same policy for everyone.

Good luck. I hope you can help your dd move past this and have a great optional season!

 

[profmom]

I'm also confused -- who has the issue here, you or your daughter? Did you get the "moveup rules" directly from the coaches or is this how your DD has explained it to you?

I come at this from a similar perspective as Skschlag. DS was told three different sets of criteria for moveups from L5 to L6 a few years ago. He worked diligently to meet all three and did a better job of getting there than anyone in his workout group. Boys who had weaker skills and fewer bonuses than he did competed L6, while he still competed L5 that year. It was annoying to me and his father, but we viewed our role as making sure that HE was prepared to deal with however things fell out and make the best of the training opportunities he had. We encouraged him, and he went into the year with a very positive attitude. Fast forward two years and he's now headed into L8 alongside his good friends who will be standing beside him at every meet, helping to assemble a good team score. No one really remembers or cares what level any of them competed two years ago.

If I were you, I'd either decide that this makes me completely unable to trust the coaches and act accordingly -- or decide to make a conscious effort to dial down my sense of outrage and assess where my DD is emotionally. If she's processed it and is just putting her head down and working hard, then fine -- you're done. If she's still resentful, then you need to explain to her that the people who make rules also have the authority and responsibility to make individual exceptions, and that any exceptions they make are between them and the athletes for whom exceptions are made. Also explain that the coaches are doing their best to ensure that every athlete is on a good track to progress effectively to the highest level of gymnastics that she can reach, and they are the ones with the expertise to figure out how to make that happen. If you don't believe that this is true, then you have a different problem to solve.

Good luck. And really trust us that all this level stuff gets less important as you go on.

 

[Sasha]

I think you hit the nail on the head of what I was trying to convey. I wouldn't have an issue if it was explained how you just did. When I asked I got the standard response. How do I explain that to a 12 y/o who sees the exception when it was told there would be none.

I'm not sure coaches always know how best to explain things to kids or parents even if they are indeed making the best conscious effort to consider all factors for each kid's progress and make decisions with the kid's best interest in mind (which we hope they all are of course).

I think the majority do their best to come up with the most 'objective' criteria possible when making decisions like what level to compete a child in a season, but ultimately there is a big subjective side to gymnastics, and a lot of guess work to 'predict' what a child might be able to do in a season (or even down the line), as well as the personal factors such as a girl's ability to handle stress or fears, social factors that make up the group (e.g., want her to have cohesion with teammates), risk of girl leaving and wanting to keep her in a level where she'll have success... Even 'objective' criteria like 'having' skills are on a subjective continuum as skills become more consistent and beautiful over time... And then there are team-level considerations such as number of girls in a level and strengths, and even sometimes pressure from Owner/Head Coach to 'win' more at a certain level which can influence decisions...

It's a lot. I can see how it would be hard to spell all this out for kids/parents, as well as opening up the risk of being questioned on all these things all the time.

I would just explain what coaches go through to your daughter to help her empathize with the difficulty in making decisions for each uniquely talented kid. Explain that the objective criteria they set is a starting point for evaluation, and they aren't able to explain the rest of the more subjective criteria publicly because it isn't appropriate to talk about any individual gymnast needs in front of a group.

If you do have concerns about any specific decision for your daughter, though, then I would encourage a scheduled 1 on 1 meeting with her coach, and just inquire about their thought process and plans for your daughter. A "help me understand" discussion. If you're not confrontational of course and invite honesty, then most likely a coach will privately shed light on many of your questions.

 

[aerials]

From what I have seen most gyms have different move up requirments from level 7 and beyond. It's not unusal that they are more tough/picky to move to level 7/8... These levels are much harder to obtain the skills well and safely. What your gym did does not seem that unusual to me.

 

[gymgal]

Just accept that the "policy" is really a guideline and explain that to your dd. Doesn't matter what the coaches originally said. There will always be cases in which the policy will need to be bent. It is better for her to understand that now. It is your job as a parent to help her see that and move past it - yes, even at 12. It only gets more dicey as she goes up the levels and the skills get harder to attain/perfect.

If she really is upset, have her sit down with the coach and - not about the other girl, but about her and why she is competing 6 instead of 7. She's 12? let her speak up herself.

 

[Natasha]

What is your daughter's end goal in gymnastics? Is her final goal L7? Here is the thing, if the coach makes an exception for her and lets her compete L7 this year (Which is what you/she are wanting, right?) it will in no way help her get to L8 any faster and may actually slow her progress. All the L7 skills can also be competed at L6, so I fail to see how it is possibly "a waste of time." Even if her L7 skills aren't ready to be competed, all the L6 skills are building blocks to the upper skills. I am not sure I understand why you would prefer her to be held back at L5, a compulsory level, rather than compete L6 where she can continue to integrate skills as they become competition ready.
12 year olds often have difficulty seeing the long term picture. Our job as parents is to constantly help them see the big picture. If your dd does not have her L7 skills yet, it is highly unlikely that she will have L8 skills by this time next year, and then she would be doing L7 again. So she can have a (hopefully) solid year of L6 and then a solid year of L7, or she can do L7 twice. Really, that is what it comes down to in optionals- the skills take longer and longer to acquire and to have consistently and clean.
Although your first post says that your daughter is upset about not being moved up, your later post makes it clear that you have an issue with her competing L6.

I understand the frustration when it seems that policies are not followed. However, in my opinion a great coach will make exceptions when needed to accommodate what is best for each individual gymnast. Unfortunately, coaches are sometimes hesitant to do that because of having to defend themselves to other parents and gymnasts, when really it is none of their business.

 

[wgymmom]

You absolutely cannot say a word about the other child, period, end of sentence. I have had similar things happen, but it is just not going to work on any level to bring up another kid's progress/lack of progress/treatment/what have you.

If your daughter is 12, then I would encourage you to have her speak up for herself to the coach. Our HC is making a serious deal of having the girls take a lot of responsibility for their gymnastics, and I completely agree. My DD has made a lot of personal growth just by speaking up for herself in gymnastics.

All I can say is that gymnastics is pretty much not ever going to be "fair" or "evenly applied" to anyone. As someone postulated above, the individual way the gymnasts work could be being taken into account. When do competitions start? For us, there's still a couple of months left until the first competition so there is still time for some girls to get those last-minute skills.

 

[OzZee]

A wise man once said....L6 vs L7 really matters very little....the goal is L8.
Lots of paths available along the journey to get to 8.

Isn't the point that these kids are having fun and getting fit?
What does it matter what number they are competing or if they ever even want to get to level 8??

 

[COz]

Isn't the point that these kids are having fun and getting fit?
What does it matter what number they are competing or if they ever even want to get to level 8??

I think the point was more to not worry about the level and just aim to improve. I think the numbers were just examples rather than anything else.

 

[JoyAvenueMom]

So, the question is "how to help a 12 year old understand why the coach would say one thing and do something else". Or, in other words, why the situation isn't "fair". This is a good time for the parent to reinforce that the coach probably has a very good reason for making the exception and that it is not any one else's concern. It is especially important for the OP do a self -inspection and make sure his own frustration and disappointment isn't clouding his judgement and spilling over to his dd. (no insult intended, it's a struggle every parent posting on this forum has dealt with) Don't get me wrong, if there is no consistency in a gym with what is communicated, there may be a bigger issue. If you are otherwise happy, it is best to let it go and "trust the process".

I think a lot of folks on this forum have spent time to trying to help the OP see why an exception might have been made. However, ultimately, it doesn't matter. There are going to be many more times when someone in authority does something our kids see as unfair or insincere. At 12 year old, this kid is ready to learn that 1) people aren't perfect and 2) When you see something that isn't "fair" MOST of the time you will not have the full story, and will never be given the full story. 3) Most of us only get worked up about "injustice" when it interferes with our own desires. When an exception is made in our favor, we don't question the injustice. It's human nature, and a 12 year old is old enough to understand that.