Parents NY Times article about losing

[iwannacoach]

I seem to be the lone voice who's not terribly bothered by the 40 - 50% medals (especially going to younger gymnasts)........

I think the reality is that some girls are just not built for gymnastics. Maybe the ones in the lower 50% who feel bad will learn......

I think the 40 - 50% keeps the gymnasts with potential but may be slow starters in the sport. I think it also keeps the ones that are more likely to move to the Excel program as an alternative path........

So let's say that for level 1 thru 3 the awards go out 50% and every not in the top half is called up, in alphabetic order, to receive a participation award. Then, once they get to level 4, the awards become more a reflection of distinguishing oneself from the rest of the field.

I've always felt awards are there to recognise the accomplishments of those receiving them. Sadly, it seems the awards now go first to the kids from programs that craft strategies to win without doing much more than repeating under the ruse of stringent requirements to move up within their own program.

Let me suggest a change that puts similar athletes in groups, based on the number of seasons spent at the level and then by age, or by the two highest scores from the previous year. It would look something like repeatingkids with a 2 meet history of 36aa+ would be a division, and repeaters with lower than 36aa from the prior year would compete within their own division. There also could be fewer age groups, as repeating and dividing should have them on relatively equal footing

If that perfect perfect iwannacaoch world could ever exist, I'd suggest a 1 to 3 ratio with a minimum of 3 awards available for each age/level, but since I'm dreaming I'd also say the small groups of fewer than 6 would get 3 aa awards and 1 or 2 awards per individual event.

I too recognize that some kids, or their parents, aren't cut out for the sport because of the choices they make as a family, or the total gymnastics gifts of the child just isn't what it needs to be to enjoy long term participation in the competitive JO format. They should discover their reality with the help of their child's coach or a parent education/support group. I don't know how strongly the poster feels about the quote, but awards should not, and can not serve this purpose. That would change what awards are for, and there simply aren't enough meets spread evenly throughout the year to tap these people on the shoulder often enough...... and they deserve better, like an open and receptive mind and an honest coach.

I also cant see using awards to keep kids or diverting them to excel. I just don't think there are that many kids who need their enthusiasm and desire propped up externally. Sure, they all want ribbons and medals, but consider the different reaction your child would have if she placed 4th instead of her usual 12th, and then consider the different reaction between a 16th place and a 25th place...... It might matter at a meet where there's a hundred kids in a group, but not when it's a group of 50 kids.

Who's to say that the kids left out of the awards won't decide, as dunno and your's truly, to work harder and focus more on their work in hopes of getting to the podium. I know I did, and I felt then that it was more a recognition of stubborn determination and hard work, and very special because only 6 out of a field of 65 got anything.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

Gotta go with the swimming parents (of which I was a swimmer and now a parent) I truly do not get the public awards ceremonies. What I find really ridiculous is that there can be 5 sessions of the same level at a meet and each kid that has the top score at each session thinks they won the meet. Save the ceremonies for the big meet of the year, and let everyone go home after the meet when it is over. I only stood on the podium once in my swimming career, when our relay won Junior Nationals. In my career I was a state champion numerous times, held an individual state record, a national relay record, got Top 16 times for my age group. The certificates came in the mail. I think it was a pretty good career. I had boxes of medals and ribbons, but after about the age of 10, the physical award was meaningless. The sense of personal accomplishment was what mattered. State meet, Naionals, olympics. Okay to have awards ceremonies. Anything else, not. JMO.

 

[MaryA]

Wow. No award ceremony at all. What a concept! Actually, I like that better than the public award ceremony only going out three places. The time spent tallying the results combined with the actual award ceremony is usually about 1.5 hours (sometimes longer). It would certainly make for a shorter day if we got rid of that.

 

[skschlag]

I guess I am in the minority. I don't mind it. We have been in both camps...not receiving anything, and receiving lots. We have been at meets that go 50% out and meets that go 10.

The difference I see between this and swimming is the way scoring is done. Swimming is timed. There is little to no ambiguity. They can work for a personal best, and it means something. They don't have to say "well, my time was X.XX with this timing system and X.YX with this one." Gymnasts do not have that. Their scores vary so much from meet to meet, judge to judge. I know D was just trying this year to get an 11 on floor from ONE particular judge. That was his ENTIRE goal for the year. (he did it at regionals.) But he can' tjust shoot for an 11. Because an 11 from judge a means something different than an 11 from judge b.

I am not saying I am for everyone getting something. But I am not for top 3 only either. I do think percentages are the way to go. I mean top 3...level 10 17-18 yo at some meets IS everyone, and one of our gmynasts took 3rd every time. He was older and laughed about it, but that could happen in younger age groups. so you do a percentage. (this probably only applies to boys where the ages are not divided out evenly at meets.)

I enjoy watching the kids get medals. All of them. Even the ones that are always up there. I love seeing their happy faces, and watching them have a moment to shine for all of their hard work. These kiddos work out 15+ hours a week from a young age, and having a little something to "show" for it isn't a bad thing.

But, it has to be tempered with an understanding that scores and places are arbitrary. And maybe I feel this way because of the way our coach has instilled that into the boys. Scores and places are not the important part. He picks an MVG of each meet to take home the team award. This is NOT done on places but on sportsmanship, or getting a new skill for the first time, etc. So while the kids have that chance to shine, our team makes sure that they know it is a TEAM sport and that is the part that matters.

I am rambling now....

 

[2G1B]

I agree with sksschlag. While I was a swimmer and had never heard of awards like we have them, I honestly have no issue with the 40 - 50%. I don't particularly care for the 100%. And I don't like at all the everyone but last place. But 40 - 50% is fine IMO. My son got 4th last year at a meet. It was out of I think 40 boys from 4 or 5 different states. That 4th place was a MUCH bigger deal than a first place at a smaller meet!

And I also have kids who are in the big age groups. For the extremes to each side, I often see 3 kids in an age group. So sometimes top 3 is everyone in those ages. I definitely like the % thing.

 

[SignHere]

Sit back and imagine if gymnastics quietly changed to the same format.
USA Swimming has 400,000 swimmers.
USA Gymnastics has what, a little less than 100,000 athletes across all disciplines?

*And a typical event at a meet will have 20-80 kids competing; I'd say most events have 40-60.

It's facile to assume that it's simply the method of awarding placements that is the difference between enrolment in swimming and gymnastics.
There is no comparison between the two sports.

My experience as a mom of a lower level athlete in both sports:
Gymnastics is a year round sport. swimming's main season is 8 weeks during summer vacation. Much smaller group of kids do year round.
Gymnastics practice for competitive team is 12 hours for lower levels. swim team was two 45 min practices a week.
Gymnastics meets are subjectively judged. swim meets are timed races.

 

[emorymom]

It's facile to assume that it's simply the method of awarding placements that is the difference between enrolment in swimming and gymnastics.
There is no comparison between the two sports.

My experience as a mom of a lower level athlete in both sports:
Gymnastics is a year round sport. swimming's main season is 8 weeks during summer vacation. Much smaller group of kids do year round.
Gymnastics practice for competitive team is 12 hours for lower levels. swim team was two 45 min practices a week.
Gymnastics meets are subjectively judged. swim meets are timed races.

I am talking about USA Swimming, which is like USA Gymnastics.

You are talking about summer league, which has nothing to do with USA Swimming clubs except a generally congenial friendship. Summer league is like ... well if you decided that for eight weeks a year, all the neighborhoods were going to field gymnastics teams and hold meets and give out lots and lots of ribbons and cheer on the kids as they learned a few things. At the end of the eight weeks, there would be one central meet, and the neighborhood with the most club gymnasts would win.

I'm not talking about summer league.

At my 9 year old daughter's swim level, she is welcome to practice six days a week, 90 minutes on the weekdays, two hours on Saturday. I get her there four days a week, but then again, she's also on a YMCA gymnastics team and runs 5Ks, so she doesn't really need six days. They don't really ramp up the training hours until puberty.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

Wow Emorymom, that is amazing she does both. Swimming is a year round 6 day a week endeavor for lots of swimmers over the age of 12. I trained 2 practices a day hour and a half in the am and 3 hours and 45 minutes in the evenings from the age of 12 on. I must say, I think gymnastics is amazing in that not everyone can do it. The kids work incredibly hard and deserve awards. One sport isn't better than another. I just hate the public awards. It's incredibly tedious and tough on the kids that don't get anything. And, no I don,'t think everyone should get an award, but the ones who don't don't need their faces rubbed in it for an hour either.

 

[Muddlethru]

I don't think I'd like to eliminate awards ceremony completely probably because it is what we are accustomed. Each sport draws in different kinds of athletes. While I don't mind sitting and watching awards be given to 40-50% down (because I too like skschlag, enjoy watching their happy faces), I do wonder how many of those gymnasts are thrilled to get 15th place and how many feel it is a waste of time. I do know from my daughter's former gym, when a gymnast is asked, "how did you do", saying they "placed" is good enough for them and even usually for the one asking.

I think maybe a participation medal and the top three might be a good compromise.

 

[emorymom]

Swimming and gymnastics are both excellent, intense year round sports and obviously the US does well in both sports internationally. I just think gymnastics has some things it can learn from swimming; and let's face it, swimming does a much better job of moving kids from rec to team and giving them the experience of being serious, fit athletes, learning those lifelong lessons, at the level to which they are capable and motivated to rise. Mainly I think gymnastics needs to make more room for almost all comers who are willing to train with dedication; the situation with Xcel will be a good step. I'm hopeful. And it would be lovely to see the awards system massively changed. I know initially there would be pushback, but in the end how would it hurt? It would make gymnastics more affordable in meet fees, would put less in the landfills and might be better for motivation.

And I'm always happy to help clue in people who are completely unaware of the vast numbers of kids swimming in year-round programs. Swimming is VERY successful in the US.

 

[skschlag]

I guess I still see many differences between gymnastics and swimming. Cost, insurance, risks, etc. are all different. The best year round swim team in our area is $140 a month. Those are rec prices at most gyms. I think gymnastics does a great job of giving the kids the experience of being serious, fit athletes, learning those lifelong lessons. Both sports do. They are just vastly different.

Parents can look at the cost of the two and choose to take the child to the pool instead. Or, realize the risk of serious injury in gymnastics is not one they want to take on, and do swimming. In addition, in swimming, again, timing is not ambiguous. Timing is absolute. you hit it or you don't. You are not reliant on a judge to say score you....."your time was great but you missed a stroke mid pool, and your toes weren't pointed, and your legs a little too far apart so your final score is this." and then give you a score.

Gymnasts can't go for a personal best. Especially with differnet judges every meet. They don't get done with a race and know that at least they won their heat. I suppose they could just compete, and get score sheets at the end, and we could see how many stick aroudn for just receiving some sheet with all they did wrong on it.

As they get older, I agree, less is more. But for the lower levels (and I think that is more than level 3) it is nice. And, honestly, when my son won 17th place AA out of 75 kids....he was pretty darn happy to go up on the podium for his medal.

 

[Muddlethru]

I just think gymnastics has some things it can learn from swimming; and let's face it, swimming does a much better job of moving kids from rec to team and giving them the experience of being serious, fit athletes, learning those lifelong lessons, at the level to which they are capable and motivated to rise. Mainly I think gymnastics needs to make more room for almost all comers who are willing to train with dedication; the situation with Xcel will be a good step. I'm hopeful. And it would be lovely to see the awards system massively changed. I know initially there would be pushback, but in the end how would it hurt? It would make gymnastics more affordable in meet fees, would put less in the landfills and might be better for motivation.

I disagree with the bulk of what is posted above and I do agree with skschlag. There is a vast difference between gymnastics and swimming and any other sport for that matter. No other sport takes more time to master than gymnastics. I respect all sports, the time and commitment they all require, hard work and sacrifices to be the best in what they do. But why do you think there are significantly more swimmers, runners, soccer players, baseball players from beginners to the "elite" level? It is certainly easier to move kids from rec to team in majority of the sports. The list required to be a competitive gymnast is probably three times longer than the list to be competitive in any other sport, making it difficult to move up the levels. The fact that it is the only sport that is being heavily debated whether it is a sport or not is enough to put it in a different category. In my opinion, gymnastics is truly in a league of its own.

 

[emorymom]

I guess I still see many differences between gymnastics and swimming. Cost, insurance, risks, etc. are all different. The best year round swim team in our area is $140 a month. Those are rec prices at most gyms. I think gymnastics does a great job of giving the kids the experience of being serious, fit athletes, learning those lifelong lessons. Both sports do. They are just vastly different.

I guess I still see many differences between gymnastics and swimming. Cost, insurance, risks, etc. are all different. The best year round swim team in our area is $140 a month. Those are rec prices at most gyms. I think gymnastics does a great job of giving the kids the experience of being serious, fit athletes, learning those lifelong lessons. Both sports do. They are just vastly different.

Parents can look at the cost of the two and choose to take the child to the pool instead. Or, realize the risk of serious injury in gymnastics is not one they want to take on, and do swimming. In addition, in swimming, again, timing is not ambiguous. Timing is absolute. you hit it or you don't. You are not reliant on a judge to say score you....."your time was great but you missed a stroke mid pool, and your toes weren't pointed, and your legs a little too far apart so your final score is this." and then give you a score.

Gymnasts can't go for a personal best. Especially with differnet judges every meet. They don't get done with a race and know that at least they won their heat. I suppose they could just compete, and get score sheets at the end, and we could see how many stick aroudn for just receiving some sheet with all they did wrong on it.

As they get older, I agree, less is more. But for the lower levels (and I think that is more than level 3) it is nice. And, honestly, when my son won 17th place AA out of 75 kids....he was pretty darn happy to go up on the podium for his medal.

(1) What does this have to do with making the kids sit through long awards ceremonies?

(2) Those of us who actually have experience with USA Swimming, as a parent or athlete, will tell you it is not that different financially. You can find municipal swim clubs that cost radically cheaper that private swim clubs; and you will find county or city or Y gymnastics teams that cost $75 per month through optionals. My daughter's private swim club starts at $156 a month for the very beginner level (five hours a week). Her gymnastics team at the Y is $85/month for six to eight hours a week of practice, and goes through about L6 before they have to leave. I have not demonstrated that gymnastics is cheaper than swimming. But I don't see that my child should get more awards because she's in an expensive sport compared to a cheaper sport.

(3) Depending on the event, yes if you miss a stroke mid pool, or your legs are a little too far apart, or (go study the rules as they are extensive) the judge writes it down, turns it into the computer operators who code it into the computer and they don't just get moved down in placement. They DQ. Which is the same as a scratch.

It's ok, you're in good company with the other gym moms who think swimmers just get to the other side and gymnastics is the most special, exclusive and expensive of sports. You wouldn't think girls' volleyball would be what it is either but I have a friend whose daughter is doing it in private club and it's absolutely insane $$ and time and rhinestoned parent t-shirt wise.

If kids are doing it for medals and an awards ceremony, in my opinion they're doing it wrong and getting the wrong message. And the fact of being 17th out of 75 could just as easily be up on the wall like at a swim meet. Yeah! Top 20. Let's go get a milkshake on the way home.

 

[skschlag]

Never said that swimmers just "get to the other side." I was a swimmer and a swim team coach for years. I know what those kids can do, and how hard they work at it. My ds isn't doing anything for an award or medal, but it still is nice. He CAN'T get a personal best score unless it is the right judge on the right event. And I have been at meets where kids get ribbons as they get out of the pool for their place in the heat, and I have been to swimming awards ceremonies. Many many years spent in that sport as an athlete AND coach.

And swimmers don't get dq'ed for not having pointed toes. Yes, in some strokes they can if their legs are apart or they don't do the right motions. But say, freestyle, not so much.

I am not saying gymnasts are better than anyone!!!! I am saying that comparing gymnastics to swimming is comparing apples to oranges. NOt once did I indicate that one was better than the other. You indicated that swimming was better preparing your child for life lessons and to be a life long athlete. I think all sports do that.

And the money thing...I pulled straight from our top CLUB team in town. I have friends who have one kid in each....top level swimmer, top level gymnast, and according to here, there is no comparison. My point there was NOT that they deserve awards because we pay more (how absurd) but that the cost is the reason there are fewer kids in gym than in swimming. (and the risk of severe injury)

 

[emorymom]

And swimmers don't get dq'ed for not having pointed toes. Yes, in some strokes they can if their legs are apart or they don't do the right motions. But say, freestyle, not so much.

I am not saying gymnasts are better than anyone!!!! I am saying that comparing gymnastics to swimming is comparing apples to oranges. NOt once did I indicate that one was better than the other. You indicated that swimming was better preparing your child for life lessons and to be a life long athlete. I think all sports do that.

And the money thing...I pulled straight from our top CLUB team in town. I have friends who have one kid in each....top level swimmer, top level gymnast, and according to here, there is no comparison. My point there was NOT that they deserve awards because we pay more (how absurd) but that the cost is the reason there are fewer kids in gym than in swimming. (and the risk of severe injury)

Whether the toes are pointed or flexed in swimming is SO FUNDAMENTAL TO STROKE EFFICIENCY that if you don't do it when you're supposed to every stroke, you add time and hence affects your outcome similar to a gymnastics routine. Imagine doing a competitive flutter kick, butterfly kick or finishing a breaststroke kick without pointed toes. It's absurd, it's not streamline, it's not fast. So now you're just being silly. And what does this have to do with awards?

I didn't say swimming was better preparing my child for life lessons and to be a lifelong athlete. I said USA Swimming succeeds at doing this in larger numbers. USA Swimming is more successful at moving our kids off the couch and into a 5-20+ hour a week sport.

I don't know where you live, but here in metro Atlanta, private swim team and private gym are reasonably comparable in price. I will grant that I might have to buy less gear (depending on how fast my daughter's feet grow out of flippers or how often she loses $20/goggles), but I am potentially in for more meets.

 

[skschlag]

I realize how strokes work. But you don't get extra deductions for it.

anyway....this is off topic now. suffice it to say that I think any sport (or activity) does a lot to prepare our kiddos for life. And if that sport does awards, or participation trophies, or gives them all a crown, it is up to us as parents and coaches that we instill in our child the real value. My son was very proud of 17th in the region....very... and was so excited to be up there receiving this. (This was regionals.) now for the smaller meets, going all the way out, no thank you.

All sports, or for that matter lego robotics, science olympiad, etc do amazing things for our kiddos and we are lucky for them to be involved in those things.

 

[2G1B]

I have several thoughts today on this subject (and some going towards the off topic). For the off topic... my kid were on USA Swim teams, year round at the lower levels at the same time that they were at the lower level for gymnastics (team). They both chose to drop swim because they prefer gymnastics. Maybe *in* Atlanta the price is comparable for the two; but in the burbs it isn't. Price *per hour* for swimming is less; but you don't have kids going to swim practice 12 hours per week at 9 years old normally. When they were doing both sports I looked at the numbers and at the top levels gym would be more expensive in total; but per hour it is less. However it really does come down, IMO, to comparing apples to oranges.

Today my 9 yo DD had a bad meet. Things were just off for her. She had a big mess up on bars, normally her strongest event and what she counts in placing in. After that she seemed to not be able to shake that. She had big balance checks on the beam (not her normal - it is normally her other strong even). And by the time floor came around she just wasn't very confident. I don't know exactly where she fell; but it was in the bottom 50%. She walked out with no medals at all. I talked to her some afterwards and she said the only thing that made her feel bad was some of the unsportsman like comments that one of the moms from another team kept yelling out (I heard them, this woman did more than just cheer for her daughter when she won, she put other kids down ). I told my kid that I was proud of her for how she handled NOT winning, probably more than I would have been had she won first. She cheered for her team mates, she didn't even put on a sad face. She accepted that today was just not a good day out there for her. I just asked her if she would rather that they only go out to 3rd place so that most of the kids didn't get something rather than having a day like she did today, where she is the only one on her team who didn't medal at all (I think that they went out 50%). She said absolutely not. She can handle days like this; but that some of her 5th and 6th place medals have meant more than her 1st and second place ones.

 

[2G1B]

oops, I meant that price per hour for swimming is more than per hour for gymnastics; but I have never seen swimmers going comparable hours to gym. So it comes out as less money per month to do swimming, at least for the gymnastics vs. swim teams where we are.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

My nine year old practices swimming 12 hours a week, my 11 year old 15. Practices last 2 and a half hours on weeknights and Saturdays when there isn't a meet. And they are moving the entire time.The practices include dryland training. By the time I was 12 and a Top 16 swimmer in the country for the 11-12 age group, I was training upwards of 28-30 hours a week, 2 workouts a day, attending regular school. For people to say there is no comparison between the sports have no idea what they are talking about from a time and commitment standpoint. And yes, there are lower levels where you don't have to put in that kind of time and just do it for fun, but to be a serious swimmer takes a tremendous amount of time, talent and skill. Not everyone is physically or mentally capable of being an elite swimmer, just like gymnasts. Swimmers do alot of dryland training including many of the conditioning exercises I see my gymnast doing, weight training, and difficult stretch cord work using swimming specific motions. Two practices a day are a regular occurance even for average high school swimmers.

My gymnast is very dedicated and so are my 2 swimmers. And the cost for the two sports is pretty equal taking into account that the swimmers have probably triple the number of meets over the course of the year, some which involve travel.

Felt I had to defend my sport based on all the comments here. Gymnasts are amazing and work incredibly hard. I fully support my gymnast in all of her effort.

My only real opinion was that not every meet needed public award ceremonies. I realize it is the custom, and won't change, and I am doomed to it for as long as my kid loves gymnastics, and I will do it with a smile on my face because I love her.

 

[skschlag]

All I said was they couldn't be compared from a scoring standpoint. One scoring method is absolute (now with timing pads) and one is very arbitrary. I never said they weren't teh same in time commitment at the upper levels, etc. and was not talking about elite anythings. I was a swimmer, and coached swimming for years. I know what those kids do. I know how hard it is. BUt the scoring IS very different. That's it.

I still love the awards. (although, to clarify and make sure I am heard correctly, I don't necessarily like the 100% or even 50%. ) And I loved watching my swimmers get their ribbons at the end of the heat. Or knowing that they won their heat. Or talkign about their PB time. That part IS different from gymnastics.