Parents NY Times article about losing

[gymmomtotwo]

Actually, I wasn't referring to any of your posts but to one that said that no sport requires more time and effort than gymnastics, and swimming is the sport currently being compared. Yes many people can swim, but truly mastering every detail of every stroke, turn, start as well as developing the lung capacity, endurance and fitness required to be a true competitive swimmer takes years. Sorry ,just feeling a little defensive. And I agree about the difficulties gymnast face in measuring their improvement etc. It really is hard to understand sometimes, and make the gymnast understand that they are progressing. I guess I just feel bad for the other half that have to sit through the awards meet after meet. One of my swimmers used to do xcel, and we struggled with this. She and I are both happier in the easily measurable world of swimming where a best time is the goal. I struggle with how my little one will handle it all when she starts competing next year.

 

[vagymmomma]

(((Group hug with all the swimmers and gymnasts. ))) Athletes in both sports should be celebrated for their dedication and triumphs.

(In non-public ceremonies with exactly the right number of awards based on your personal preferences ).

 

[KSLaura]

I think awards going out to 50% is great! There are a lot of kids who would NEVER otherwise win. DD and her friends competed L4 last year as 7 year olds against 9/10 year old repeats in the same age group. DD was ecstatic to win 7th place on beam. There was no way in the world she or her friends could have placed top 3. Most of the meets we went to gave participation medals to all AA (placed top 50%, the rest got handed a participation medal). I think its a pretty good system. The kids know when they have 'placed', and make a big deal of it. No one goes home empty handed. I believe the optional levels only place out to the top 25% or something, but I think this works ok for the older kids.

 

[emorymom]

I think the problem is that at many meets only a small minority of kids go home empty handed, while having to sit through a long in-your-face experience that's completely unnecessary.

And certainly we know this is not a meritocracy at a kid level. If two kids with the same ability and the same work ethic put in exactly the same hours at exactly the same effort, the one with the good coach wins.

For example, my son as a 6 year old L4, a reasonably talented kid, had several meets where he sat through a long awards ceremony to get nothing. Why? His coach -- the only men's coach at the neighborhood gym that year -- was brand new to coaching, young, busy with college, and my kid was the only L4. I watched the gap between my kid and the kids on the better teams widen all season while his coach kinda shrugged and voiced surprise when my kid didn't place. Not that I was giving him the third degree.

At one medium-large meet he placed just below top half, of course they medaled out 50% and he got nothing.
Next meet, a large meet he placed ALL top half, of course they medaled out only the top third and he got nothing.

Some meets they would compete him against the 7 year olds. Why in the world would you have a 50+ deep 6-7 year old L4 division for awards? The 7 year olds have some repeaters.

This did not discourage him, and we never made a big deal about it, but I do see it as kinda mean, and just expensive and unnecessary.

He is fortunately now at a gym with a very dedicated mens' program, with coaches who know how to train clean routines. This is possible because we had a death in the family which indirectly freed me up to do a bunch of driving. So basically, my kid will now medal because someone died.

 

[skschlag]

So, on our team...same coach, same kids, same practice times, same ages, same number of years at the level, we had one level 6 that rarely medaled, one that did about 1/2 the time, and one that almost always did. Same age group, everything. How do you explain that? It isn't always coaching, although a good coach helps. Good coaching does not automatically equal medaling.

Also, the large age groups are the norm in mens. Not good, but the norm. We had several meets this year where the age groups were 8-9, 10-11- and 12+. The breakout would almost be about 10 kids in the 8-9, about 15 kids in the 12+ and around 60-70 for the 10-11. So when would would place and be recognized in teh top 20 it was a huge deal.

Good luck to your son this year.

 

[happychaos]

I hugely favor the 40-50% awards. To me, giving everyone an award, or giving just a few basically results in the same thing- most girls leaving with exactly the same thing as everyone else. It's the mentality of treating everyone the same, so some don't feel bad that I really disagree with. My DD has placed first AA, and has also fallen and not placed at all. It is what it is. I have never seen my DD so determined as after a meet where she didn't place at all. Demoralized...no. Motivated....YES. Sure, she had a sad look on her face during awards. She said she never wanted that to happen again. She was part of a highly competitive, successful team, and to not place in the top 50% was not acceptable. She worked her fanny off in the weeks following that meet.

I see nothing wrong with gymnasts knowing who is in the top half, and who is in the bottom. The gymnast who finished 4th with a 36.9 is not the same as the gymnast who finished 22nd with a 33.2, and I don't see any problem distinguishing between the two. Most likely, the gymnast who goes home with nothing at this meet will go back to the gym, work harder, and will eventually start placing, and will be thrilled to pieces. Maybe it won't be until the following season when they compete the level again. 50% is an attainable goal for most gymnasts. Top 3 maybe not so much. Gymnastics requires these tender kids to put themselves out there to be harshly critiqued. I am amazed that my DD willing does this, as I could never have done that at her age.

 

[Jenny]

My DD has placed first AA, and has also fallen and not placed at all. It is what it is. I have never seen my DD so determined as after a meet where she didn't place at all. Demoralized...no. Motivated....YES. Sure, she had a sad look on her face during awards. She said she never wanted that to happen again. She was part of a highly competitive, successful team, and to not place in the top 50% was not acceptable. She worked her fanny off in the weeks following that meet.

So how demoralised would she have felt if she hadn't been part of a 'highly competitive successful team' and to not have the physical makeup to achieve EVER that top 50 %. You mention how it made her feel the odd time it happened. How would it have affected her to face that every meet her whole gym career. Because for some children that is the reality. It is easy to say that failure makes children work hard until they achieve but the reality is it doesn't always. And I question that it is a good thing for children to be motivated to work hard just to get medals and because it is not acceptable at her gym to be in the bottom 50% (what kind of emotional pressure is that?). I'm not looking to criticise you personally it is more a general thought. We need to instil an ethic for hard work that does not include a shiny reward. I have seen many girls leave the sport when the medals dry up and a quick fix of 'working their fannies' off for a few weeks doesn't bring the rewards needed to feel validated. A parent once told me her dd winning a medal her first comp was the worst thing that ever happened to her, she never learned the long hard slog and when she had to face that she gave up and left.

I also do not agree with pretending they all did the same. They didn't . That is why I don't believe in medalling out to 50%. 1st to 3rd and maybe ribbons to 6th sounds reasonable.

Receiving a medal for coming 18th out of 40 on floor does not make you a great gymnast. It does not really make you better than the kid who came 42nd. Working hard, achieving things that are hard for you, placing in a place that is a personal best, being a good team mate, never giving up and doing it all with a smile on your face is what makes you a great gymnast.

Not having such an emphasis on medals make you emphasise more what is really important for those gymnasts out of the top 5. JMHO

 

[profmom]

As I've said or implied before, I think the ones who are in it for intrinsic love of the sport will adjust to whatever the medal practices are, whether it's top three and done or 60% on every event in five age groups. In the long run, their best yardstick has to be their own progress in their training and acquisition of skills.

Is it nice to get medals? Sure. But on the whole, I think most gymnasts are going to get further if they're encouraged to put less emphasis on placements, especially at the lower levels. And we should keep in mind that they can be learning valuable things from both winning and losing in how they handle it, and how they handle their teammates' outcomes, regardless of whether there are lots of medals or only a few.

My favorite meet award ceremony last year was the one where my DS won parallel bars. First time either of my kids has won an event. But at that meet, they did the awards at practically warp speed; I barely had time to snap the picture of him on top of the podium before they moved right on and started flinging medals at the next age group. The one thing they lingered over was the team awards, and that clearly meant a lot to the boys. The other one I really liked was one where two national team members connected to the gym were involved in handing out medals, but the best pictures of the day were the ones where they were hanging around and posing with all the boys afterward. The camaraderie among the team and the inspiration of seeing men who've made it all the way will go much further in keeping my little dude in the gym and working on his mushroom relentlessly at home than that first place medal, which hasn't been considered since it went into his bag after the meet.

 

[LizzieLac]

At swim meets, age group kids ALWAYS go home empty handed, at least where I am. ALWAYS. What you go home with is your times ... did you get a new best time ... did you DQ anything (fail form requirements) ... did you move into another set of time standards ... did you meet any personal goals? Did you get any state cuts or regional cuts? These are all personal to the athlete, as they should be. They can look on the wall usually 20-40 minutes after an event for the computer printout of the final results. They go up to the coach for coaching before each event, and return to the coach for feedback after each event.
What happens later is that, if they got a ribbon or medal, those QUIETLY show up in the athlete's pool folder days or even weeks later. And that has been true at all three clubs my daughter has swum for. They may ribbon the top 8 or 10 and medal the top 1 or 3 ... but it's not a big deal.*
*Possibly* state cuts will be announced at a practice, or children will be recognized verbally at the next practice for meeting some individual goal or doing something particularly well, or having exceptional sportsmanship.
There's no goodie bags to have to pay for, there's only the kids hanging out between races, getting to race and having a great time the 98% of the time that they are not in the water.
Sit back and imagine if gymnastics quietly changed to the same format.
USA Swimming has 400,000 swimmers.
USA Gymnastics has what, a little less than 100,000 athletes across all disciplines?

*And a typical event at a meet will have 20-80 kids competing; I'd say most events have 40-60.

My Dd swam competitively as well, and yes, yes. That is exactly how swimming is handled.

The other huge difference, however, is that events are organized by age and that's it. Your years of experience swimming is not taken into account. All ten year olds entered into an event compete against each other, whether if you just started swimming at 10 or started at 7.

My DH has often commented on why USAG has to also break down each level by age. Shouldn't all level 4s compete against each other. The breakdown by age and the 50% awards both contribute to the "softening" of the competition.

 

[seoulmama]

Hard work doesn't equal medals. I don't think it's as simple as not placing at a meet, going back to the gym, and working harder so you place at the next meet! I totally agree with the poster below-for some kids, it is reality that they work hard and don't medal. I don't know how to fix this-I don't want to see my dd medal just because.......but I also know that not getting a medal is hard on the psyche of a 8-9-10 year old.

So how demoralised would she have felt if she hadn't been part of a 'highly competitive successful team' and to not have the physical makeup to achieve EVER that top 50 %. You mention how it made her feel the odd time it happened. How would it have affected her to face that every meet her whole gym career. Because for some children that is the reality. It is easy to say that failure makes children work hard until they achieve but the reality is it doesn't always. And I question that it is a good thing for children to be motivated to work hard just to get medals and because it is not acceptable at her gym to be in the bottom 50% (what kind of emotional pressure is that?). I'm not looking to criticise you personally it is more a general thought. We need to instil an ethic for hard work that does not include a shiny reward. I have seen many girls leave the sport when the medals dry up and a quick fix of 'working their fannies' off for a few weeks doesn't bring the rewards needed to feel validated. A parent once told me her dd winning a medal her first comp was the worst thing that ever happened to her, she never learned the long hard slog and when she had to face that she gave up and left.

I also do not agree with pretending they all did the same. They didn't . That is why I don't believe in medalling out to 50%. 1st to 3rd and maybe ribbons to 6th sounds reasonable.

Receiving a medal for coming 18th out of 40 on floor does not make you a great gymnast. It does not really make you better than the kid who came 42nd. Working hard, achieving things that are hard for you, placing in a place that is a personal best, being a good team mate, never giving up and doing it all with a smile on your face is what makes you a great gymnast.

Not having such an emphasis on medals make you emphasise more what is really important for those gymnasts out of the top 5. JMHO

 

[skschlag]

My Dd swam competitively as well, and yes, yes. That is exactly how swimming is handled.

The other huge difference, however, is that events are organized by age and that's it. Your years of experience swimming is not taken into account. All ten year olds entered into an event compete against each other, whether if you just started swimming at 10 or started at 7.

My DH has often commented on why USAG has to also break down each level by age. Shouldn't all level 4s compete against each other. The breakdown by age and the 50% awards both contribute to the "softening" of the competition.

THe issue with that would be that the 8 year old at our gym who is competing level 8 this year would be competing with 8 year olds with level 4 skills. Again, these sports are both amazing sports that really do good for kids, but they are completely different sports. That would push kids to do things that are not safe for them.

I don't think there is anything soft about gymnastics.

 

[LizzieLac]

THe issue with that would be that the 8 year old at our gym who is competing level 8 this year would be competing with 8 year olds with level 4 skills. Again, these sports are both amazing sports that really do good for kids, but they are completely different sports. That would push kids to do things that are not safe for them.

I don't think there is anything soft about gymnastics.

I think you misunderstood. My DH and I were sort of advocating for all level 4 compete against each other, regardless of age. I find the age breakdown within the levels softening the competitive experience, much like all of the awards does. I wasn't saying gymnsatics is soft...quite the contrary.

 

[skschlag]

Ok. I did misunderstand. I guess the age breakdown for girls is way different than for boys. We usualyl only have 3 age divisions.

 

[emorymom]

The other huge difference, however, is that events are organized by age and that's it. Your years of experience swimming is not taken into account. All ten year olds entered into an event compete against each other, whether if you just started swimming at 10 or started at 7.

Well, to some extent (States, etc.) but during the season there are softer or harder meets. We have meets in-club (bear in mind it's a very large club) for the kids who did not make certain time cuts to attend a more competitive meet, and the kids who did make the time cuts do not get to swim in those. Also for example, the last chance meets (at the end of the season before the state meet) are going to have fewer of the very fast kids, because those kids already have qualifying times and are not going to be attending those. So there are slower meets.

But overall, swimmers are not as concerned about placement and awards and I think a good bit of that is that we don't have award ceremonies at regular season meets.

 

[gracyomalley]

We have stayed though countless awards ceremonies (boys and girls) to cheer on team mates. All three of my kids have occ. been awarded placings - sometimes the 42nd out of 100 type, and sometimes (less common) the 3rd out of 30 type. All three have also had the 5th out of 5th or 30th out of 32 experience.... Its very clear that when they were young (ds #2 competed L4 as a barely 6 year old and dd L5 as a barely 8 year old for first meets) that they loved getting ribbons for everything - and didn't have the slightest idea what it meant....but that wears thin quickly and their pride in achievement of a personal best score or a new skill finally competed well in a meet can be strained when they have to be sportsmanlike about standing up for close to last place. (Of course, good sportsmanship is part of the point....but)

Whats more, as kids move along, they clearly know that successfully moving to the next level is more of a sign of a "good" gymnast than medals, and that getting a 1st place medal on floor as a 12 year old level 5 is different than getting the same medal as a 10 year old level 7....not in terms of personal growth, etc, but as far as who's the "best".....so rest assured, the kids know what's up and aren't staying in this sport past the early years for the bling! I would say the sad thing is that all this stuff is really just for the parents!! (AND WE SHOULD KNOW BETTER)

With so few meets compared to all the hours of work, and such a weed out process by the higher levels anyway, and different coaches with different theories about "move up" (after all one post comments about repeaters with greater than 36s competing in their own division...here in our region its almost unheard of for more than 1-3 kids to score that high in an age division at state - and rarely do compulsories repeat with scores consistantly above 34 - unless they have injuries or fear issues....optionals are a bit different) medals and placement are clearly not what keeps kids in gym or what makes for a happy, successful athlete....I know, despite wanting the pocketbook savings, I can't get my very mediocre with a very mediocre team/coaching situation boys to think about another sport - they like their team, they like their coach (I do too) and they set goals for themselves each year. and my biggest fear with dd repeating level 7 this year is that she WON"T do better score wise or placement wise (as she is growing, up-grading skills, getting over fear issues, etc and will no longer be in the youngest age group so with lots of other repeaters...). She's never cared before - but I worry that she will now....and it shouldn't matter...

Would prefer no awards or 1-3, just qualifying scores, personal bests, goals, etc and good work ethic....lots of ice cream for new skills, as one mom posted!