"Perfect" Age/ Level Progression

[Megley]

I like Grizzoline's take on it. I'm trying to think more in terms of skills than levels with my own dd. It seems there are quite a few variations in each level between gyms. Our gym won't allow you to compete Level 7 without a bwo/bhs series on beam and giants, but they aren't strictly required by USAG. I also think what shelovesthebars says is true - the better the basics, the faster the optional skills will come. My dd's coach calls it laying the foundation for future skills.

 

[gymnut1]

OK Im in.
My fantasy gymnast is good enough and wants to go elite.

Level 5 aged 7 short season of about 5 meets.
Focus on - Lots of conditioning and preparation work, ballet, basic moves and attention to detail and form.
Level 6 aged 8 short season of about 5 meets.
Same focus as above. Lots of uptraining.
Level 7 aged 9 - 10 - this is where I would keep my gymnast until they had fantastic giants and a tsuk or yurchenko vault. A full on floor, etc. Basically I would have them compete 7 and uptrain like mad. Use the level 7 experience to polish presentation, expression and showmanship on floor (think Nica Hultz or Lizzy Leduc's level 7 floor) Level 7 is where I would have them learn to compete as there are lots of girls in 7. If they go to 8 too early they either have too few competitors their age or get lumped in with older girls or have to travel huge distances for a decent meet.
Then I would do a couple of level 8 meets and a couple of level 9 meets at aged 11 to 12.
Those would just be for trying out higher moves in competition and keeping their hand in before testing elite at 12 and going to the elite circuit.
At 17 we will be winning the olympics of course. She would also be the olypmic and world champion on beam and her beam routine will be an actuall routine rather than skill lines with pauses at each end and will include (gasp) dance.
Tee hee
I think if your gymnasts goal is college I would pace differently and the higher JO levels would be much more important. My elite bound gymnast has no interest in JO or college. I personally think aiming to do every JO level then elite and then college and olympics would be hard as the skills and focus are so different.
Basically elite gymnast - focus on form and basics then skills
college gymnast - focus on rocking each level with solid form then college

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Hmmm... That makes sense but I would think it would be harder to do the higher levels simply because of the skills involved. Don't the bigger skills take longer to learn and master?

No, definitely not! If the basics are learned well, the higher-level skills can often be learned surprisingly quickly.

For example, I have oft said that the continued acquisition of more advanced backwards tumbling skill is really just a collateral effect of the continued quest for the perfect roundoff (suplemented, perhaps, by the continued development of strong aerial awareness).


Let's look at a common tumbling pass, a roundoff-backhandspring-double back. In reverse order, the skills are:

Double back: the gymnast must punch with an extended body, tuck, and then pick the right moment to extend out of the tuck and land.

Back handspring: the gymnast must snap to an arch, then back to a hollow.

Roundoff: the gymnast must hit a low lunge with a deep knee bend while bringing her hands down to the floor while taking care not to allow any bend in the shoulders. The gymnast must wait until the last possible moment, then execute roughly a 1/4 turn through the shoulders, while simultaneously pushing off of first the back leg, then the front (the relative timing of these two elements is crucial). Then, she must push through first one shoulder, than the other as the hands contact and block off the floor. While this is happening, she must begint he process of bringing the legs together. As the hands leave the floor, she must continue to turn such that she executes another 1/4 turn before her feet contact the floor. During this time, she must bring her feet together and snap aggressively to a hollow position.
She must perform every single one of those pieces with exactly the right timing relative to each other.


Reading over those descriptions, which skill do you think will take the longest to perfect?

From the time a gymnast first attempts a roundoff to the time they can consistently execute a technically flawless roundoff is typically years; sometimes a decade or more.

On the other hand, if you already have a roundoff-backhandspring that gives you enough power for a double-back, and you have strong aerial awareness, you can learn a double back in a week. Granted, it may take more time to develop a consistent landing and a level of confidence which would allow the gymnast to comfortably perform the skill in competition, but even still, that would not come close to the amount of time spent perfecting the roundoff.

 

[gymnut1]

GT my head coach has said all that to me before.

He once told me that in the USSR the highest coaches used to teach the youngest kids as the basics were the hardest and most important part to be taught.

 

[Panda-girl's Mom]

I think you can come up with a plan if you have a really talented gymnast but I do not know how you could foresee whether injuries will occur or even if she will want to continue with the sport. How could you predict want a 7 year is going to want to do in High School or College that is just crazy.

 

[Billy]

No, definitely not! If the basics are learned well, the higher-level skills can often be learned surprisingly quickly.

For example, I have oft said that the continued acquisition of more advanced backwards tumbling skill is really just a collateral effect of the continued quest for the perfect roundoff (suplemented, perhaps, by the continued development of strong aerial awareness).


Let's look at a common tumbling pass, a roundoff-backhandspring-double back. In reverse order, the skills are:

Double back: the gymnast must punch with an extended body, tuck, and then pick the right moment to extend out of the tuck and land.

Back handspring: the gymnast must snap to an arch, then back to a hollow.

Roundoff: the gymnast must hit a low lunge with a deep knee bend while bringing her hands down to the floor while taking care not to allow any bend in the shoulders. The gymnast must wait until the last possible moment, then execute roughly a 1/4 turn through the shoulders, while simultaneously pushing off of first the back leg, then the front (the relative timing of these two elements is crucial). Then, she must push through first one shoulder, than the other as the hands contact and block off the floor. While this is happening, she must begint he process of bringing the legs together. As the hands leave the floor, she must continue to turn such that she executes another 1/4 turn before her feet contact the floor. During this time, she must bring her feet together and snap aggressively to a hollow position.
She must perform every single one of those pieces with exactly the right timing relative to each other.


Reading over those descriptions, which skill do you think will take the longest to perfect?

From the time a gymnast first attempts a roundoff to the time they can consistently execute a technically flawless roundoff is typically years; sometimes a decade or more.

On the other hand, if you already have a roundoff-backhandspring that gives you enough power for a double-back, and you have strong aerial awareness, you can learn a double back in a week. Granted, it may take more time to develop a consistent landing and a level of confidence which would allow the gymnast to comfortably perform the skill in competition, but even still, that would not come close to the amount of time spent perfecting the roundoff.

I LOVE this! I have never seen it broken down in quite this way and it makes perfect sense. So then, what do you consider are "the basics" on each event? The RO or ROBHS on floor, I guess. Kips and cast handstands on bars? Is the giant a basic? What about on beam? And vault? Is the FHS the basic or the Yurchenko? What list of basics on each event need the most attention?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I LOVE this! I have never seen it broken down in quite this way and it makes perfect sense.

Thanks -- this is one of the topics I'll probably cover at some point in my blog.

So then, what do you consider are "the basics" on each event? The RO or ROBHS on floor, I guess. Kips and cast handstands on bars? Is the giant a basic? What about on beam? And vault? Is the FHS the basic or the Yurchenko? What list of basics on each event need the most attention?

EVERYTHING: Aerial awareness -- this is something that gets developed continuously, and it's hard to pinpoint any one skill as the most crucial basic foundation, but if I had to pick one, I'd say a front 1/2 (on trampoline or from a springboard or minitramp onto a resi). Obviously, there are other skills that need to be learned leading up to this, so it's not the absolute most basic skill, but with any higher-level skill that including both twisting and flipping, the best way to orient yourself, in my opinion, is to find some way to turn it into a front 1/2.
For example, a yurchenko 1/1 is a backhandspring with a 1/2 turn at the end followed by a front 1/2. A double-double is two consecutive front 1/2s (each preceded by a quick 1/2 turn to prepare and spot the ground). And so on.

FLOOR: Candlestick (in my opinion the first skill that every kid should learn when they first walk into the gym), handstand (the most important basic skill in the entire sport), and roundoff for everybody.
As for front tumbling,t he most crucial basics depend on the gymnast's style and where they want to go. For most female gymnasts, I'd include front handsprings on the list of absolutely crucial basics, but I consider them not to quite be on that level for male gymnasts or for extremely powerful female gymnasts (who will often have an easier time simply working from a punch). How exactly a gymnast should approach front tumbling varies a lot more than back tumbling, in my experience, so between the front handspring, the front tuck, and the front layout, it's hard to name one as being the most important basic skill.

VAULT: Depends on what the gymnast will be doing at the upper-levels. I'd say either a front handspring or a yurchenko entry -- a gymnast who will focus primarily on yurchenkos really has no need for a strong front handspring, and a gymnast who does handsprings or tsuks has no need for a strong yurchenko entry.
Now, this is not to say that coaches need to choose which of the two a gymnast will be doing really early on -- I think the ideal approach is to train both and see what type of vault the gymnast takes to most easily. In practice, this generally means introducing the front handspring first, as gymnasts can't even START work on yurchenko entries until they have developed a very strong ROBHS on floor.
So I'd say the most basic skill on vault is either a front handspring or a yurchenko entry -- both of which can be broken down much further into their components. It's hard to say which among those components is most crucial.

BARS: For boys, giants trump all else as the single most important basic skill (which of course necessitates strong tap swings as the most basic skill leading up to giants).
For girls, it's a little more complex -- I'd say tap swings/giants and kips/casts. I consider the kip and cast to be ultimately part of the same skill, as you never see one without the other once you get past compulsories.

BEAM: First, a disclaimer: beam is not my forte. I spend very little time coaching it.
I'm not sure what I'd consider to be the most crucial basic skills on beam, as there seems to be so much variation in how you can get value in beam skills. And the biggest and most important part of is not physical skills, but mental ones.
If pressed to choose a single skill, I'd probably go with a split handstand (specifically to train the gymnast to keep the hips squared while splitting).

While I'm at it:

POMMEL HORSE: Circles (duh) and false scissors.

PARALLEL BARS: Swings on all four levels (Support, upper-arm, hang, and basket -- though this fourth one should generally be introduced much later than the first three)

RINGS: Swings, handstands, and straight-arm supports

 

[MdGymMom01]

Thanks -- this is one of the topics I'll probably cover at some point in my blog.



EVERYTHING: Aerial awareness -- this is something that gets developed continuously, and it's hard to pinpoint any one skill as the most crucial basic foundation, but if I had to pick one, I'd say a front 1/2 (on trampoline or from a springboard or minitramp onto a resi). Obviously, there are other skills that need to be learned leading up to this, so it's not the absolute most basic skill, but with any higher-level skill that including both twisting and flipping, the best way to orient yourself, in my opinion, is to find some way to turn it into a front 1/2.
For example, a yurchenko 1/1 is a backhandspring with a 1/2 turn at the end followed by a front 1/2. A double-double is two consecutive front 1/2s (each preceded by a quick 1/2 turn to prepare and spot the ground). And so on.

FLOOR: Candlestick (in my opinion the first skill that every kid should learn when they first walk into the gym), handstand (the most important basic skill in the entire sport), and roundoff for everybody.
As for front tumbling,t he most crucial basics depend on the gymnast's style and where they want to go. For most female gymnasts, I'd include front handsprings on the list of absolutely crucial basics, but I consider them not to quite be on that level for male gymnasts or for extremely powerful female gymnasts (who will often have an easier time simply working from a punch). How exactly a gymnast should approach front tumbling varies a lot more than back tumbling, in my experience, so between the front handspring, the front tuck, and the front layout, it's hard to name one as being the most important basic skill.

VAULT: Depends on what the gymnast will be doing at the upper-levels. I'd say either a front handspring or a yurchenko entry -- a gymnast who will focus primarily on yurchenkos really has no need for a strong front handspring, and a gymnast who does handsprings or tsuks has no need for a strong yurchenko entry.
So I'd say the most basic skill on vault is either a front handspring or a yurchenko entry -- both of which can be broken down much further into their components. It's hard to say which among those components is most crucial.

BARS: For boys, giants trump all else as the single most important basic skill (which of course necessitates strong tap swings as the most basic skill leading up to giants).
For girls, it's a little more complex -- I'd say tap swings/giants and kips/casts. I consider the kip and cast to be ultimately part of the same skill, as you never see one without the other once you get past compulsories.

BEAM: First, a disclaimer: beam is not my forte. I spend very little time coaching it.
I'm not sure what I'd consider to be the most crucial basic skills on beam, as there seems to be so much variation in how you can get value in beam skills. And the biggest and most important part of is not physical skills, but mental ones.
If pressed to choose a single skill, I'd probably go with a split handstand (specifically to train the gymnast to keep the hips squared while splitting).

While I'm at it:

POMMEL HORSE: Circles (duh) and false scissors.

PARALLEL BARS: Swings on all four levels (Support, upper-arm, hang, and basket -- though this fourth one should generally be introduced much later than the first three)

RINGS: Swings, handstands, and straight-arm supports

The gym my dd first started out at (she did about 6 months of gymnastics before they recruited her for cheer there) was a russian gym and the acro coach would stress the handstand and round off sooo much. Our adult class (he was my instructor) had us doing handstands for almost half the class! But I learned a lot about why the handstand was so important and he liked to also explain the "physics" behind gymnastics (I guess he was so excited to have adults to talk to about gymnastics who could understand what he was talking about). At that gym for cheer they spent so much time perfecting round-offs and BHSs. Many parents would get impatient with their style of coaching because all the other cheer gyms were teaching skills so much faster but now I know why they went so slowly. The kids that come out of that gym always have some of the best "basics" around. So, the basics really do build a strong foundation for future skills.

 

[Billy]

Thanks -- this is one of the topics I'll probably cover at some point in my blog.



EVERYTHING: Aerial awareness -- this is something that gets developed continuously, and it's hard to pinpoint any one skill as the most crucial basic foundation, but if I had to pick one, I'd say a front 1/2 (on trampoline or from a springboard or minitramp onto a resi). Obviously, there are other skills that need to be learned leading up to this, so it's not the absolute most basic skill, but with any higher-level skill that including both twisting and flipping, the best way to orient yourself, in my opinion, is to find some way to turn it into a front 1/2.
For example, a yurchenko 1/1 is a backhandspring with a 1/2 turn at the end followed by a front 1/2. A double-double is two consecutive front 1/2s (each preceded by a quick 1/2 turn to prepare and spot the ground). And so on.

FLOOR: Candlestick (in my opinion the first skill that every kid should learn when they first walk into the gym), handstand (the most important basic skill in the entire sport), and roundoff for everybody.
As for front tumbling,t he most crucial basics depend on the gymnast's style and where they want to go. For most female gymnasts, I'd include front handsprings on the list of absolutely crucial basics, but I consider them not to quite be on that level for male gymnasts or for extremely powerful female gymnasts (who will often have an easier time simply working from a punch). How exactly a gymnast should approach front tumbling varies a lot more than back tumbling, in my experience, so between the front handspring, the front tuck, and the front layout, it's hard to name one as being the most important basic skill.

VAULT: Depends on what the gymnast will be doing at the upper-levels. I'd say either a front handspring or a yurchenko entry -- a gymnast who will focus primarily on yurchenkos really has no need for a strong front handspring, and a gymnast who does handsprings or tsuks has no need for a strong yurchenko entry.
Now, this is not to say that coaches need to choose which of the two a gymnast will be doing really early on -- I think the ideal approach is to train both and see what type of vault the gymnast takes to most easily. In practice, this generally means introducing the front handspring first, as gymnasts can't even START work on yurchenko entries until they have developed a very strong ROBHS on floor.
So I'd say the most basic skill on vault is either a front handspring or a yurchenko entry -- both of which can be broken down much further into their components. It's hard to say which among those components is most crucial.

BARS: For boys, giants trump all else as the single most important basic skill (which of course necessitates strong tap swings as the most basic skill leading up to giants).
For girls, it's a little more complex -- I'd say tap swings/giants and kips/casts. I consider the kip and cast to be ultimately part of the same skill, as you never see one without the other once you get past compulsories.

BEAM: First, a disclaimer: beam is not my forte. I spend very little time coaching it.
I'm not sure what I'd consider to be the most crucial basic skills on beam, as there seems to be so much variation in how you can get value in beam skills. And the biggest and most important part of is not physical skills, but mental ones.
If pressed to choose a single skill, I'd probably go with a split handstand (specifically to train the gymnast to keep the hips squared while splitting).

Thank you sooooo much for this! This makes me feel much better about DD's training. While she is already training L8, these are exactly the skills that she is working on perfecting. It's nice to know she's on the right track working the important stuff.

It's funny you mention about the kip and the cast always being together. DD was having trouble making her handstands and the coach explained to me that the problem wasn't the cast or the handstand but rather it was her kip. She wasn't "finishing" the kip before she'd try to go into the handstand, which resulted in her pushing away from the bar. She was also bending her arms trying to "muscle up" into the handstand, which wasn't working. Once she learned to do her kip "with really straight arms" (as she explained to me) and finish it, she was able to hit the handstands almost every time. So interesting to learn about how these skills all work in tandem and lead one into the next.

 

[gymjourneymom]

Hey Shawn, Just wanted to thank you for not giving up on this thread when you thought it was a "fail". I think this thread has ended up spawning some very informative posts!

Thanks GT for your VERY informative posts!!! I'm so looking forward to your blog!

 

[Billy]

Hey Shawn, Just wanted to thank you for not giving up on this thread when you thought it was a "fail". I think this thread has ended up spawning some very informative posts!

You're welcome. The thread didn't go where I thought but I'm loving the information!

 

[MdGymMom01]

GT--in regards to aerial awareness, is it safe for gymnasts to experiment on skills (like at open gym) with skills into the pit? My dd is a Level 5 gymnast and still has issues with doing ROBHSs by herself on floor, but likes (and feels totally confident) throwing double fronts, ROBT's, RO1/2s and ROFulls and one and 1/2s into the pit. She will try anything as long as it is in the pit. But as long as she is still working on and honing her "basics" she is on the right track correct? In Shawn's case, her dd is training Level 8 but still is perfecting and working on the "basics". Can the reverse (like in my dd's case) be do-able without any risk?

 

[mom2kazkids]

Okay, if I were a coach, here's what I would try to do:


age 10- level 8

Shawn,

If this is your ideal hypothetical progression, why are you pushing your 8 year old to be a level 8. Let her clean up and have a better season as a level 7.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

GT--in regards to aerial awareness, is it safe for gymnasts to experiment on skills (like at open gym) with skills into the pit? My dd is a Level 5 gymnast and still has issues with doing ROBHSs by herself on floor, but likes (and feels totally confident) throwing double fronts, ROBT's, RO1/2s and ROFulls and one and 1/2s into the pit. She will try anything as long as it is in the pit. But as long as she is still working on and honing her "basics" she is on the right track correct? In Shawn's case, her dd is training Level 8 but still is perfecting and working on the "basics". Can the reverse (like in my dd's case) be do-able without any risk?

Yes and no. Depends on the kid, depends on the skill, depends on the extent to which she's being coached while doing this.

Double fronts into a pit are generally harmless, and a lot of fun.

Flipping directly out of a roundoff is something I strongly discourage until the gymnast has developed a very strong ROBHS. The gymnast will often get too accustomed to punching straight upward out of the roundoff rather than sitting back for a back handspring -- in fact, if your daughter is spending a lot of time working saltos straight out of a roundoff, that may be the very reason she's struggling to get her ROBHS by herself.

Self-taught back tucks are generally a very bad idea, as the gymnast will almost always develop bad habits (specifically, throwing the head back and buckling the knees) -- it's often easier to teach a back tuck from scratch than it is to correct a self-taught back tuck. As for twisting, self-taught twisting is also a bad idea, for similar reasons -- it tends to be sloppy and incorrect, and it's easier to teach good technique from scratch than it is to correct poor technique.

To answer your question, I would not consider it to be a safety issue if she's going into the pit; however, I would consider it a bad idea from a developmental standpoint to allow gymnasts to train the more advanced backward tumbling skills before mastering all the steps leading up to it. Front skills, since they can be done in isolation, pose no such issues -- if there is a knowledgeable coach available who can correctly teach her to twist going forwards, so much the better!

 

[MdGymMom01]

Thanks GT!!! She actually does a lot better with the front twisting skills (and actually has pretty good raw form). She always has a coach watch her (the open gyms are always supervised) and they are often shaking their heads in disbelief because they know about her BHS fears. She usually doesn't play around like this too much--just once in a while for fun.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Thanks GT!!! She actually does a lot better with the front twisting skills (and actually has pretty good raw form). She always has a coach watch her (the open gyms are always supervised) and they are often shaking their heads in disbelief because they know about her BHS fears. She usually doesn't play around like this too much--just once in a while for fun.

As long as it's supervised and infrequent, it's probably harmless.

 

[Billy]

Shawn,

If this is your ideal hypothetical progression, why are you pushing your 8 year old to be a level 8. Let her clean up and have a better season as a level 7.

I also put that because in reality there are very few ideals, advancing faster would allow time for issues later, should they arise.

That said, what makes you think I'm pushing her to be a L8?

 

[MdGymMom01]

That said, what makes you think I'm pushing her to be a L8?

Maybe from your Blog in your signature???

 

[mom2kazkids]

And the link to your you tube site.

 

[coachmolly]

There are so many variables when thinking about the elite path, and so many different methods that have worked in the past. I remember reading somewhere that Shannon Miller's coach worked under the idea that it was best to teach the big skills first, refine the form later. However, I'm sure her basics were very solid. There was also Bianca Flohr who only did TOPS and basics in her early years in the sport and did not begin competing until the optional levels. While she did end up having a rough go of it later on in her elite career, I'm not so sure that can be blamed solely on her early progressions or as a result of later gym changes. There are others who worked through the levels very "normally", as in one level per year starting in level 5 at around 7 or 8 years old. It really depends on the individual and what works best for her.
I agree with most posters in this thread though that solid basics are the most important thing, without them a gymnast is only going to hit a wall and run into a lot of frustration down the road. And if a kid happens to be a 10 year old level 10 with impeccable form, so be it. You can't fault the kid for being incredible!