"Perfect" Age/ Level Progression

[Billy]

There has been a lot of discussion lately about very young gymnasts at very high levels, often before they are really ready. So my question is, given that the obvious things (skills, form, maturity, etc.) are in place, what is the "perfect" progression? I have heard that a gymnast wanting NCAA needs to be a solid level 10 by her sophomore year because that's when the college coaches start really watching and looking for their next recruits. And I've heard that elite gymnasts need to be experienced elites before they are seniors (age 16) if they want to make the national teams and get assigned to international competitions. So they should probably make elite by say 14 or 15. And it can often take a year or two after level 10 to qualify as an elite gymnast. So, what age is the ideal age for each level for a gymnast wanting NCAA and/or elite? If you were to plan the perfect progression (that fits in with the current system), what would it be? What age should she start? How quickly should she move through the levels? How old should she be when she reaches level 10? When she qualifies to elite? If you were the coach, how would you progress your talented gymnast?

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

My daughter has been involved in competitive gymnastics for going on five years now. She has had some bumps in the road, dealt with fear issues/mental blocks, but she has persevered and continued on w/her love of the sport. Yes, she was FANTASTIC at Level 4 and Level 5..... I think I thought for about half a second about her really "going somewhere" with this, but then realized that I did NOT want to subject her and the rest of my family to the training schedule that would be required. Also, she was an "older" gymnast... allthough that doesn't really mean anything anymore... just look at Brooke Parker (from Capital Gymnastics NTC ... actually where DD began). She didn't begin competitive gymnastics til she was already 11... now she's a Sr. International Elite, but I digress here.

All I can add, from a realistic standpoint, is that it's not just a matter of when they reach L10 (for NCAA)... they need to be GREAT level 10's. Some girls reach L10 earlier than others and become bored or injured, some not until 10/11th grade (and of course there's still the injury factor that could derail everyone's plans)... BUT they were fantastic L9's as well, so their names were already "out there" at Easterns/Westerns. Their form was impeccable from the beginning...

We have several gyms in my immediate area who consistently produce college scholarship athletes (Capital is just one of them). A few have trained with my daughter in the past.. and the thing they ALL have in commong is that their coaches stressed FORM before skill progression. If they didn't have the proper form on their BHS LO's, they worked on that UNTIL it was perfect before throwing in a twist... same thing w/cast handstands.... no giants until THAT was perfect, and so on.

As far as building skills, I'll have to leave that to the coaches to answer.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I think the idea of a "perfect age/level" is a bit misleading -- that would be like asking "what's the perfect way to get to Albequerque?" Well.... coming from where? By what mode of transportation? What part of Albequerque?

Likewise, the rate of progression for a gymnast depends on many many different factors. What is the gymnast trying to accomplish? How old were they when they started? What are their strengths? What are their weaknesses?

Assuming the goal is to do gymnastics in college, I'd say level 10 by junior year is a good goal, but even that depends on a lot of different factors.

 

[gymdog]

I like the kids to be 7 (not 6) in level 4. I'm not going to not work with a 6 year old at L4, but it doesn't happen with our progressions anyway, really, and I think they do better in first grade. Kindergarten age, to me it's asking too much. It really is asking a lot. I think they do much better in a fast paced preteam environment that stresses lots of movement and skills (even level 5 skills) over working the routines and competing.

Then at the youngest, 10 in level 8. This gives plenty of time without overdoing it. I am talking about a strictly L10/NCAA track. I would consider 10 in level 8 quite young and younger than that unnecessary. I would only move a girl younger if her early optional skills were perfect. I am talking able to compete cast handstand, stalder/toe/clear hip handstand into very good giants, layout flyaway with NO issues, very good tumbling, beam series (BWO BHS), very good vault. And I just think that's unlikely for the average training hours of a strictly JO track. If it happened I would think the child was truly exceptional and would recommend to the parents to take her to one of the elite programs in our state at that point.

 

[gymnut1]

I don't have an answer about college gymnastics because we don't have it. I would think coaches of gymnasts on the elite track would also pace their gymnasts according to the olympic cycle.

 

[10.0]

There really is no right answer to that. I do think however that being at the kids ultimate level whether that be level 10 for college or Elite before puberty is ridiculous as once that happens to a kid and their body changes so does their gymnastics. And the whole where should a child be at what age for what is all just a gamble, she may get injured, she may have a growth spurt, she may just lose interest, she may be overcome with fears and mental blocks. I think you would have better odds figuring out the lottery numbers than guessing when and how a gymnast might progress to meet her goals.

 

[Billy]

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I'm talking about a hypothetical situation and setting goals for an elite-driven gymnast. I'm not asking for personal stories or "the reality is" posts. Don't any of you play fantasy football? Shawn Johnson's coach asked her at 6 or 7 years old how far she wanted to go in this sport and then he coached her accordingly. Be the coach and coach your gymnast to the Olympics and college. Assume that everything fell into place, she was never injured, got all her skills in a timely manner, etc. How would you progress her?

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

Everyone here is saying that there's no "magic formula" for getting a gymnast from point A to point B. "Personal stories" and "reality" posts ARE the standard road to progression in gymnastics.

Not even going to address the question of asking a 6 or 7 year old how far they want to go in gymnastics. I think that's been discussed enough here and any more discussion is a waste of time on everyone's part.

 

[MdGymMom01]

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I'm talking about a hypothetical situation and setting goals for an elite-driven gymnast. I'm not asking for personal stories or "the reality is" posts. Don't any of you play fantasy football? Shawn Johnson's coach asked her at 6 or 7 years old how far she wanted to go in this sport and then he coached her accordingly. Be the coach and coach your gymnast to the Olympics and college. Assume that everything fell into place, she was never injured, got all her skills in a timely manner, etc. How would you progress her?

Now, THAT truly is "fantasy gymnastics". Barring that she isn't a robot, bionic, or an alien that can instantly "heal" herself, that gymnast, probably doesn't exist.

 

[gymdog]

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I'm talking about a hypothetical situation and setting goals for an elite-driven gymnast. I'm not asking for personal stories or "the reality is" posts. Don't any of you play fantasy football? Shawn Johnson's coach asked her at 6 or 7 years old how far she wanted to go in this sport and then he coached her accordingly. Be the coach and coach your gymnast to the Olympics and college. Assume that everything fell into place, she was never injured, got all her skills in a timely manner, etc. How would you progress her?

Well I mean, actually I'm pretty sure her first coach, when she was around 6, told her parents she "wasn't very good." Then they moved to Chow's. Apparently it took her a year to get a kip as well. Started competing around 7. I think she was about 10ish in level 8. No TOPs. Not super young skipping levels as far as I know...she first pretty much hit the elite scene around 2005 when she'd be 13.

 

[Megley]

Shawn, not sure about NCAA, though I have heard that Level 10 by freshman year is best. But isn't the USAG TOPs/HOPEs/Pre-elite/Elite system sort of set up to give an idea of what skills they should have at certain ages in order to progress to elite? That was kind of what I figured the 8yo, 9yo, 10yo, 11 yo and HOPEs skills were intended as - a guideline to where a girl should be at any given age if she is hoping for elite. Maybe that's not the case and certainly it is not the only route (and surely a girl could skip TOPs and HOPEs and just test elite) but it should be a general guide. I am not sure it matters so much what level a gymnast is competing as long as she is getting the skills with good form. I know many gyms compete behind where their girls are training.

 

[Billy]

Ugh. I wanted ya'll to use your imaginations. Dream a little! Never mind. Bog, feel free to delete this thread. Epic fail.

 

[gymjourneymom]

Ugh. I wanted ya'll to use your imaginations. Dream a little! Never mind. Bog, feel free to delete this thread. Epic fail.

Shawn why would you label this thread as a "fail"? I think maybe we just don't understand what direction you were thinking it would take? Maybe if you could expand on your ideas a bit more we could catch on & play along with you. I honestly don't know what fantasy football is. So I don't what you are looking from our replies if you don't want "personal experiences" or "reality". Give us a little more of an example & maybe we can follow along.

 

[Billy]

Shawn why would you label this thread as a "fail"? I think maybe we just don't understand what direction you were thinking it would take? Maybe if you could expand on your ideas a bit more we could catch on & play along with you. I honestly don't know what fantasy football is. So I don't what you are looking from our replies if you don't want "personal experiences" or "reality". Give us a little more of an example & maybe we can follow along.

Okay, if I were a coach, here's what I would try to do:

age 7- level 5
age 8- level 6
age 9- level 7
age 10- level 8
age 11- level 9
age 12- Level 10


two years to prepare for becoming an elite

Age 14- Junior Elite

two years of junior experience before trying for any international meets

Age 16- Senior Elite

two years of senior experience before college or Olympics

Age 18 in 2020; this would be the summer after graduating high school and before starting college; plenty of maturity, hopefully, and ready to experience and appreciate the big O followed by NCAA.


To me, this is the ideal situation. However, to add a touch of realism, I'd have to plan for some problems. The problem with this timeline is that it allows no room for any problems, no injuries, no skill or fear issues, everything must go as planned. But, if the gymnast can progress through the lower levels at a faster rate, then she has more time to repeat levels as needed, recover from injuries as needed, work through fear or skill problems if they arise, etc. So I'd probably try to get through levels 5, 6 and into 7 quicker than one per year to allow some time later on if needed.

 

[IrenicMom]

I like the kids to be 7 (not 6) in level 4. I'm not going to not work with a 6 year old at L4, but it doesn't happen with our progressions anyway, really, and I think they do better in first grade. Kindergarten age, to me it's asking too much. It really is asking a lot. I think they do much better in a fast paced preteam environment that stresses lots of movement and skills (even level 5 skills) over working the routines and competing.

You have to remember, though, that even age/grade levels varies by state.

My daughter is 5 and in Kindergarten, and is nowhere near the youngest in her grade. So, if she progresses on to L4 next year, she *will* be a first grade L4, but will also be a 6 year old L4.

Just another wrench to throw into the discussion

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

But the problem I see with that quick progression is that body shape and form would possibly be sacrificed, all in the sake of "getting a skill." We all know it takes a LOT of practice time to get those toes pointed, no overarching, etc. I think what I see a LOT of is kids who are rushed through and then they've developed such bad habits (i.e. form) that it's very difficult to untrain those things once that muscle memory has kicked in.

 

[ek2]

Okay, if I were a coach, here's what I would try to do:

age 7- level 5
age 8- level 6
age 9- level 7
age 10- level 8
age 11- level 9
age 12- Level 10


two years to prepare for becoming an elite

Age 14- Junior Elite

two years of junior experience before trying for any international meets

Age 16- Senior Elite

two years of senior experience before college or Olympics

Age 18 in 2020; this would be the summer after graduating high school and before starting college; plenty of maturity, hopefully, and ready to experience and appreciate the big O followed by NCAA.


To me, this is the ideal situation. However, to add a touch of realism, I'd have to plan for some problems. The problem with this timeline is that it allows no room for any problems, no injuries, no skill or fear issues, everything must go as planned. But, if the gymnast can progress through the lower levels at a faster rate, then she has more time to repeat levels as needed, recover from injuries as needed, work through fear or skill problems if they arise, etc. So I'd probably try to get through levels 5, 6 and into 7 quicker than one per year to allow some time later on if needed.

I think that the progression you gave makes sense "if" the gymnast has superior form and abilities. Because if she rushes to get to optionals and does not have good form and a command of her routines/skills the upper level optionals 8,9, 10 and ultimately "Elite" skills will not happen. There are LOTS of girls training elite, and I can name several, that can chunk skills, but because they never learned good form, their scores at elite testing are truly awful. Much better to race through level 9, 10 and then do elite because all the basics are firmly grounded.

 

[grizzoline]

Actually, I would say, which levels you compete and when you do for everything up to L8 doesn't matter. Up until then, it's all basics (in terms of Elite gymnastics). If you want to be elite, all that stuff needs to be perfect. Like, REALLY perfect, technically precise. Also, the athlete must have outstanding flexibilty and strength.

What you end up competing? Who cares. I guess, your typical elite scenario will/could also involve skipping a level at some point. I wouldn't plan when to skip, but it seems to be a typical pattern that there'll be a time where the gymnast will just learn a LOT (building on the basics. basics are great, they take a long time to learn but then they'll make you learn really fast, too). this might be Level 6 / 7 (most likely, IMO).
An athlete that's elite material should typically/ideally/hypothetically/in my perfect world probably be a L 9 at age 11/12. The jump to L10 doesn't really seem to be that big after L9, so it doesn't make that much difference IMO. Actually the FIG code (and the way it values C skills, which the old 10.0 system didn't) seems to allow for athletes going elite quite early-ish (skipping 10). Because with good basics and a lot of C skills you will do just fine (give or take the lack of an release move on bars). I'm thinking Madison Kocian and Alyssa Baumann here, who both went from L9 to elite. Madison Kocian is a fab example that, if you have the basics, there might just be a time when you learn a lot and it's happening fast.

So, really. Even if I had to plan, I wouldn't plan. I would try to get all the basics down as perfect as they could possibly be (especially but not limited to: Flipping Yurchenkos, Cast Handstand, Giants, Circling elements to HS (preferably a variety of those), basic tumbling on beam (front, back, side), combination tumbling, twisting, front tumbling) by Age 10. Obviously you would start harder skills earlier, especially for awareness reasons, but I wouldn't aim on getting them competition ready before that. And then go from there. If injuries happen, wait a bit longer, if they don't, go ahead. Just make sure the athlete stays as healthy as possible both physically and mentally.

That said, anything can happen, we know that.

 

[Billy]

Much better to race through level 9, 10 and then do elite because all the basics are firmly grounded.

Hmmm... That makes sense but I would think it would be harder to do the higher levels simply because of the skills involved. Don't the bigger skills take longer to learn and master?

 

[Shelovesthebars]

From what I understand, the girls who have a shot at elite are really pushed to learn the basics to perfection. The gym doesn't really worry about pushing them at all through the lower levels quickly. However, when the basics are mastered, the girls quickly master the upper levels. A level is just a number but it is the basic skills that are being perfected that are important. This just seems to be the philosophy that I see at my dd's gym.