Proposed USAG Junior Olympic men's routines

[Geoffrey Taucer]

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Here are the proposed boys USAG Junior Olympic routines for the next quadrenium.

Thoughts?

Here are mine:

Floor:

Level 4&5:
-I really like the press from prone to stradle stand. Excellent addition. But why not have it in level 5 as well?

Level 6:
-I don't see the purpose of a front handspring stepout front handspring (although I never really liked the handspring bounder much either).
-I prefer the split press of the current routine over the stradle stand and stradle press of the new one

Level 7:
-In the final pass, I think the gymnast should have the option of adding a second backhandspring between the whip and the salto.


Pommel horse:

Level 4:
-I vehemently dissagree with the idea of doing only mushroom. I agree the the focus should be shifted more towards mushroom than it is now, but to neglect legcut work entirely is a very bad idea in my opinion.

Level 5:
-I notice there's no mention of spindles in the mushroom routine. I do not think spindles should be taken out.

Level 6 & 7:
-I vehemently dissagree with the lack of any scissors at any compulsory level.

I like the overall shift in favor of more emphasis on circle work as opposed to scissor work, but I think these routines take it a bit too far.


Rings:

Level 5:
-Straddled flyaway? I'm sorry, but that's flat-out idiotic. I think it is completely developmentally useless, and if it ends up in the final routine, I will teach a normal tucked or laid-out flyaway and take the deduction rather than training a straddled flyaway.

Level 6:
-I think the cast should go to immediate back uprise. I don't think there should be swings in between. Though to be honest I preferred the old routine (inlocate, inlocate, back uprise) to the current one.

Level 7:
-I don't like the lower to shoulderstand from handstand, and the subsequent bail from shoulder stand. I don't think we should be doing a routine that specifically teaches a bent-arm bail.


P-bars:

Level 5:
-I don't like the additional swing before the first back uprise. It does not seem to have any developmental purpose.
-I have never liked the inverted pike in upper-arm support; it seems to be very counterproductive in the progression towards a front-uprise, and other skills from upper-arm support.
-I like the dismount, though it should be noted that some gyms (mine included) will have to alter their p-bars setup to train this routine.

Level 6:
-I think, for the stradle travel, a reverse stradle cut to stradle support should be allowed as bonus. Otherwise, I see no point in having the stradle travel at all.

Level 7:
-I think a flyaway dismount, as opposed to a wende, should be bonus.


Hi-bar

Level 7:
-By this level, I don't think there should be any "controlled stops" in the routine. I think a back uprise to free hip would be a much better mount. Of course, the rest of the routine would have to be reconstructed accordingly.

 

[JBS]

Here is the full rough draft:

[FONT=&quot]To: Junior Men’s Community[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]From: Jeff Robinson – Jr. Olympic Program Coordinator[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Re: Compulsory Routine Elements for next quadrennium[/FONT]

​

[FONT=&quot]The compulsory writing team of Tom Meadows, Brandy Wood, Yuejin Sun, Bob Young and have met numerous times by conference call to develop the compulsory end of our Age Group Competition Program for our next quadrennium. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The following is an event-by-event listing of the proposed routine elements for our next quadrennium. It is the intention of the compulsory writing team to have these raw routines circulated in elementary form to gather feedback from the men’s community on the work so far. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Please address any and all feedback to: Jeff Robinson at the following address:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot][email protected][/FONT]​

​

[FONT=&quot]2009-2012 - Compulsory Writing Team[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot](Aggregate Raw Work so far - 8-10-07)[/FONT]​

​

[FONT=&quot]Floor Exercise[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 4:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Handstand forward roll[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Jump hurdle to cartwheel, chasse’, cartwheel, ¼ turn in to tall stand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Tucked backward roll (with extension) to hollowed prone support[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]One push-up[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Press with straight arms to straddled stand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Press to headstand (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Forward roll to piked sit (momentary? hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Straddle to pancake (momentary? hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Roll backward from pancake bringing legs together to candle stand (show full extension)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Roll forward from candle-stand position to stand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Run, hurdle, roundoff and rebound to stick.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 5:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Run, hurdle, front handspring (rebound allowed)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Step to handstand forward roll (no hold required)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Roll through tuck and pike up to handstand ½ pirouette[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Pike down from handstand and back extension roll to hollowed prone support[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Jump to straddled stand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Press to handstand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Roll to piked sit[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Straddle and pancake split (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Roll backward from pancake bringing legs together to candle stand (show full extension)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Roll forward from candle-stand position to stand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Run, dive roll (body straight or slightly hollowed), step and forward chasse’ to cartwheel[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]¼ turn forward to lunge[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front scale (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Step, kick, jump ½ turn to stick[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Run, Roundoff, back handspring, rebound and stick
  [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 6:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Run hurdle front handspring step out, front handspring (rebound allowed)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]kick handstand straight arm forward roll, jump ½ turn[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]back extension to handstand fall to prone position[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing leg forward to split (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]swing other leg forward to pike sit[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Roll backward from pancake bringing legs together to candle stand (show full extension)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Roll forward from candle-stand position to straddled stand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Press handstand (2 sec. hold) [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]forward roll to stand, run punch front somersault[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]kick to handstand, straight arm forward roll pike up to 1/1 pirouette roll to 1 knee[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]180’ turn backwards to stand, lunge to forward scale, bring legs together to stand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Run, hurdle, Roundoff, back handspring, back somersault tucked[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 7:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Run, Roundoff, back handspring, layout back somersault[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Tucked or piked back extension roll to early 180° reverse pirouette to prone position[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Move any leg forward to any split[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]From any split: Straight arms, bent body straddled press to handstand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Optional corner transition[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front handspring step-out, front handspring, front somersault (tucked, piked or layout)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot](front handspring, bounder, front somersault for bonus)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Optional corner transition[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Roundoff, back handspring, back handspring, tucked back somersault[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot](Roundoff, whip back, back handspring, tucked back somersault for bonus)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Pommel Horse:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 4:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mushroom Routine Only:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]3.5 Circles[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]5.5 Circles – Bonus[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 5:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mushroom Routine:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]5.5 circles[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]7.5 circles – Bonus[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Horse Routine:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Jump to 3 straddled swings[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Leg cut forward to 3 stride swings[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Leg cut backward to[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Leg cut forward to 3 stride swings (the other way)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Leg cut backward to[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Leg cut forward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Leg cut forward to dismount[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 6:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mushroom Routine:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]5 circles[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]3 flaired circles[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2.5 circles[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Horse Routine:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Jump to single leg travel up from end to saddle[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2 consecutive false scissors[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Straddled swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2 consecutive false scissors (the other way)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Straddled swing to feignt to[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]1.5 circles to dismount (as in current level 6 set)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bonus:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Jump to 2 front loops – 0.2 Bonus[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Jump to 4 front loops – 0.4 Bonus[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 7:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Horse routine (pendular)[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Jump to 3 straddled swings[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Leg cut to 3 false scissors[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Straddled swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]leg cut to 3 false scissors (the other way)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Leg cut to rear support pick-up into[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]1.5 circles on the pommels to dismount (as in current level 6)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Horse routine: (circular)[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Jump to 2-3 circles on the pommels[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot](Czechkehr for bonus here)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2 circles[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2 flaired circles[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2 circles[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Side travel to 2 front loops and loop ½ turn dismount[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bonus: (and it needs to be real big bonus)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Instead of side travel to front loops and dismount:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Direct Stockli-A and 1/3 cross-support travel to the end and 2 back loops to dismount[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Still Rings:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 4:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]From straight arm hang, pull to flexed arm hang[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot](2nd pull up for bonus)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Lower to straight arm hang; raise legs to hanging “Lâ€￾ (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]“Dropâ€￾ legs and swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, Swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, Swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, Swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward to straight arm inverted hang[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Lower legs to piked body inverted hang[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot](bonus for extension through back lever position with momentary hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Lower to long hang position[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Drop and stick landing[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 5:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Muscle up to support (spot allowed) lock arm turn out and hold (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]L, roll backwards to piked inverted hang[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]back lever, lower to long hang[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]pull out, cast to back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]front swing, back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]front swing, back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]front swing, back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]inlocate to back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]front swing, back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]front swing, back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]front swing to straddled flyaway.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 6:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Pull to inverted hang[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]cast, back swing, front swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]back swing to up rise, lock arm turn out and hold, L [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]press to shoulder stand (handstand on inside of straps for bonus)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]roll back to piked inverted hang[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]extend to back lever (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]lower to long hang, pull out to piked inverted hang[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Cast to back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing to[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]inlocate, inlocate[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]back swing, front swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]back swing, front swing to[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]dislocate, dislocate[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot](bonus for shoulders at or above ring height on any inlocate or dislocate)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Layout flyaway[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 7:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Pull to inverted hang[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Cast, back up rise, lock arm turn out and hold, L[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Press to tucked planche [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]lower to L[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]press to handstand on inside of straps [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]lower to shoulder stand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]bail to 2 inlocates[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]back swing, front swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]back swing front swing to[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2 dislocates[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing to layout back somersault (double back allowed)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Vault:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No changes are anticipated on vault other than to re-define the special performance criteria for the evaluation of the run and the hurdle to the board.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Parallel Bars:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 4:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]From stand, jump to support and swing forward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward,Swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, Swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward to a straddle leg position on the bars[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Immediately reach hands in front of legs and lift legs off bars, (straddled travel) and swing forward to “Lâ€￾ position (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward, swing forward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward, swing forward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward, swing forward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward to dismount over either rail[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 5:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]From stand or short run, long hang swing forward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Long hang swing backward, long hang swing forward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Long hang swing backward and uprise to upper arm support[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Upper arm support swing forward to piked upper-arm “castâ€￾ position[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Cast to backward upper arm support swing to back uprise to support[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, swing backward to handstand hold (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]swing forward and straddle legs to straddled sit on bars[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]straddled travel to swing forward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward and bail to long hang swing forward to [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]flyaway off end of bars (allow a hand spot on hand for bail)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 6:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]From stand or short run, Glide kip to back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Moy to upper arm support (“castâ€￾ position allowed)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Back swing to back up rise[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing to straddle L[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]press to handstand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, swing to handstand hold (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing to straddle sit[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Straddle travel to swing forward[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward and bail to long hang swing forward to [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]flyaway off end of bars (allow a hand spot on hand for bail)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 7:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]From stand or short run, glide kip to support[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward and bail[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Moy to upper arm support[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot](giant to support and front swing to “Lâ€￾ for bonus)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Back uprise to “Lâ€￾ (2 sec, hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Piked or straddled press to handstand (2 sec. hold)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, swing backward to[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]layaway to front uprise[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]swing backward to nominal handstand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]swing forward, swing backward to pirouette in either direction[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot](early pirouette either forward or backward to handstand for bonus)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, swing backward to[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Either swing forward to back tucked somersault dismount or swing forward and swing backward to wende dismount[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Horizontal Bar:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 4:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Pull over[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Cast to horizontal[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Undershoot[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward and hop[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward and hop[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing backward and hop[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward with ½ turn to mixed grip[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, swing backward and change grip to double overgrip[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing forward, swing backward[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]drop to dismount and stick.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 5:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Cast and back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing (tapping action)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing to swinging pullover (with tapping action)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Undershoot to back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing to kip (stop permitted) (immediate kip-cast for bonus)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Cast to back hip circle (clear hip circle for bonus)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Undershoot to back swing and hop[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing and hop[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing and hop[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing with ½ turn and block the bar to immediate drop to feet and stick[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 6:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Cast to back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]front swing to kip[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]stop and change to double undergrip[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]cast to handstand [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]¾ giant to hop to double overgrip (undergrip giant before ¾ giant for bonus)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing with ½ turn to mixed grip[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing and change to double overgrip[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing and kip to support[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Cast to ¾ overgrip giant swing (overgrip giant before ¾ giant for bonus) to[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Undershoot to back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing, back swing[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Front swing to flyaway dismount (tucked, piked or layout)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Level 7:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Cast to back up rise[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]controlled stop and change grip to under-grip[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Cast to handstand[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2 to 3 front giants (endo allowed for bonus)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Pirouette[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2 to 3 back giants[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Swing ½ turn or hop ½ turn (minimum 45° above horizontal)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2 or 3 back giants (clear hip, stalder or piked toe-on, toe-off allowed for bonus)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Flyaway dismount (tucked, piked or layout)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot](3/4 giant to undershoot, back swing to front swing allowed before dismount)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](There will be no option for a double back dismount)[/FONT]
​

 

[ZJsMom]

Tucked backward roll (with extension) to hollowed prone support

Does this mean they're taking the back roll to pushup position from the girls' level 4 routine? What do people think of that? It looks really awkward and some of the kids seem to struggle with it. I think they might as well just do a regular back extension roll.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I realy like the backward roll to prone; the advantage over going straight to a back extension roll is that it teaches the kids not to arch when they extend.

The thing to keep in mind with a backward roll/extension is that, for developmental purposes, it is not a floor skill; it is a bar skill. It doesn't lead to harder floor skills, it leads to free-hips and stalders. For both of these skills, it is extremely important not to arch on the extension, and this is something that many kids have trouble with.

 

[BlairBob]

Hey, I posted this over on DrillsandSkills Forum where my friend runs the board and I mod. Here's my post.

My ideas on it.

FX:

L4 sounds ok, doing a push up after the prone support sounds a bit gimicky but could be fun for the boys and amusing to watch.

L5 they are finally taking out the headspring. I like headspring enough, and it is different enough from handspring; which makes it confusing to teach a bit. As a prelimary skill to the bounder/flyspring, I have never really liked it. Dive roll may be interesting, but they are already doing front tuck off a board. I'd hate to see a lot of leaning over dive rolls.

L6: I'd like to see the option of front handspring to flyspring as well. Perhaps as a bonus. I'm never been much for FH step out.


PH:

L4: Something similar: gymnasticscoaching . com has an article from his experiences about coaching pommel to early

Perhaps that's where this push to get them off the horse is following.
On one hand, many L4 are very small to the PH or just too new. It's often the event they dislike the most when new to team. If L4 is supposed to be rec, it could make sense. I've been thinking about looking for a jr pommel horse that has the pommels closer.

Taking the spindle out, hmm.

SR:

Doing an extra pullup in the routine I find hokey, but I think the direction is it for fun to the boys.

I don't want to see straddled flyaways in L5. Other than that, rings doesnt' change much.

PB: flyaway off end of bars in L5. Hmm, used to be an old compulsory skill. However, could be overboard for a lot of L5. No more wende dismounts I guess. A lot of boy's still aren't swinging to HS in L5 and it might be easier to have them flip. Pirouette in L7= good.

HB: No back hip circle in L4. Sure, who cares. As for a swinging pullover in L5. ICK. UCK. BLECH. I don't like the skill much at all to begin with. I'd love it if they can do the giant, they just skip the 3/4 giant ( or baby giant/swinging pullover whatever you call it ). Maybe an uprise in L6 after the 3/4giant. Eh.

No blind change or mandatory clear hip in L7. Weird, just too used it.


Not that my opinion means anything or that I have been in the sport long enough. Just my 2 bits.


In response to you:

L6 press seems they want to encourage the old bonus stalder/endo press.

Scissors in compulsory. Ehh, false scissors are roughly the same as scissors to me until you start doing scissor half and scissor full. I do like connecting opposing side scissors though.

Straddled Ring Flyaway. I'm the idea is they want to them to really swing all the way to the candle and straddle at the top ( last second ). Perhaps that's my interpretation. Not that I like it.

Swing before Back Uprise. I'm thinking they want to see some swing in the back uprise vs a really muscled back uprise because their lack of swing from the cast. I've had a heck of a time getting compulsories to really pump from that cast position.

I'm thinking the bail is partially from Tom Meadow. He teaches the bail from shoulderstand so that they push out of it. He went over it a bit during a session on rings during Congress.

Pbar swing in upper arm. Perhaps they want to encourage upper arm swing development. Yippee. It's very similar to what's being down now except they are stating it as a swing.

I've always thought the cast from upper arm was to encourage them to cast into the back uprise. Not as a front uprise progression. A little similar to the cast to back uprise on rings.

I'm gonna guess the straddle travel is to give them a pause to prep for the bail.

They'd have to bring back the blind change to have a connected L7 bars routine. Back Uprise action to free hip to back giants. Perhaps as a bonus with back uprise back hip circle to support cast to back giant otherwise.

 

[blantonnick]

My comments in reference to Taucer's comments:
Floor
I don't see the purpose of a front handspring stepout front handspring (although I never really liked the handspring bounder much either)

The purpose of this pass is for basic level gymnasts' to understand the idea of maintaining forward momentum in front tumbling. The snap through the chest, head and arms working together etc. necessary for advanced level front tumbling. Without it the junior USA program would be greatly skipping over the process of fundamental front tumbling work.

Pommel Horse
I vehemently dissagree with the idea of doing only mushroom. I agree the the focus should be shifted more towards mushroom than it is now, but to neglect legcut work entirely is a very bad idea in my opinion.

Look at the construction of high level/elite Pommel Horse routines. How many skills do you perform with the fundamental circle and how many do you perform with the Group I element Scissor work? Yes, youngsters need to learn about the leaning, support and hip flexor strengthening process that leg cut/scissor work provide, but for one element group to be emphasized so heavily in the beginning stages when 75% of the other requirements on the Pommel Horse require the circle as the fundamental building block to routine constructing is hardly a case to vehemently disagree with something.

Rings
Straddled flyaway? I'm sorry, but that's flat-out idiotic. I think it is completely developmentally useless, and if it ends up in the final routine, I will teach a normal tucked or laid-out flyaway and take the deduction rather than training a straddled flyaway.

You must understand there is a progressive standpoint behind this skill that is not just to teach a Deltchev. Your National Program coaches are not just wasting time trying to make coaches and gymnast's frustrated on performing a skill that might not be necessary to their future development, even if the skill was not chosen as part of the routine. The straddle flyway teaches a gymnast to pull backwards on the rings prior to the release point on a basic flyway. Tell a gymnast to perform this without pulling backwards and you will find yourself in a precarious spotting position. It emphasizes the pull back of the rings necessary, again, for the fundamental process of basic swing.

I don't like the lower to shoulderstand from handstand, and the subsequent bail from shoulder stand. I don't think we should be doing a routine that specifically teaches a bent-arm bail

The idea is certainly not to teach a bent arm bail, rather to allow for a safe progression from the Handstand bail position. It allows a gymnast a 'medium height' starting position to understand the hanging position that a bail will present rather then going directly from handstand, something that is invaluable when introcuding basic bail progressions.

Parallel Bars
I don't like the additional swing before the first back uprise. It does not seem to have any developmental purpose.

The upper arms are going to take a battering in the years to come past basic level gymnastics, from Belle's to Morisue's etc. Gymnasts need to get the strength and the experience of swinging on the upper arms.


You must understand, even though some of the progressions, routines, sequences, etc. seem to the underlying eye to be worthless, stagnant and 'idiotic' you are talking high level, national gymnastics coaches dictating the direction which they want their national system to progress. They will take this progress very seriously and will not include anything that is going to hinder their progress in the future. Even if the proposals are not gone ahead with, the ideas are there for reasons, for basic progressions that help build fundamental bases for basic level gymnasts. You can't just disagree with these ideas without asking yourself what it is that National level coaches would do to put USA in jeapordy of teaching improper progressions/techniques for the talent of the future, even if they are just proposals!

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

My comments in reference to Taucer's comments:
Floor
I don't see the purpose of a front handspring stepout front handspring (although I never really liked the handspring bounder much either)

The purpose of this pass is for basic level gymnasts' to understand the idea of maintaining forward momentum in front tumbling. The snap through the chest, head and arms working together etc. necessary for advanced level front tumbling. Without it the junior USA program would be greatly skipping over the process of fundamental front tumbling work.

I agree in principal, but I don't think a handspring bounder or a handspring stepout handspring is the best way to do it.

Go to any L6 meet, and watch the floor routines. Almost every single gymnast (at least this is the case in NC) will, rather than doing a proper handspring and a proper bounder, do a front handspring that lands crouched in anticipation of the bounder, followed by something that is, in effect, more like a front headspring than a bounder. I think a FHS-front tuck is EASIER to to do properly than FHS-bounder. As is a front-front.

A FHS-bounder could be a good skill to work on parallel to FHS-front layout, but that's assuming it's done correctly. I think a CORRECTLY performed FHS-bounder is a much higher-difficulty skill than most L6 guys can perform.

As for the FHS stepout FHS, I don't think it helps at all to teach the sort of snap through the chest that is necessary for good connected front tumbling. To connect one forward-landing element to a forward takeoff element requires a well-timed snap from arch to hollow (and sometimes back to arch, depending on the skill); a FHS-steoput doesn't really have anything like this.

Admittedly, I like the stepout better than the bounder, but this doesn't say a lot.

Pommel Horse
I vehemently dissagree with the idea of doing only mushroom. I agree the the focus should be shifted more towards mushroom than it is now, but to neglect legcut work entirely is a very bad idea in my opinion.

Look at the construction of high level/elite Pommel Horse routines. How many skills do you perform with the fundamental circle and how many do you perform with the Group I element Scissor work? Yes, youngsters need to learn about the leaning, support and hip flexor strengthening process that leg cut/scissor work provide, but for one element group to be emphasized so heavily in the beginning stages when 75% of the other requirements on the Pommel Horse require the circle as the fundamental building block to routine constructing is hardly a case to vehemently disagree with something.

I wrote that response awhile back, and have since changed my mind. Though I would point out that I said in the first place that I agreed in principal with shifting the focus more towards mushroom.

Rings
Straddled flyaway? I'm sorry, but that's flat-out idiotic. I think it is completely developmentally useless, and if it ends up in the final routine, I will teach a normal tucked or laid-out flyaway and take the deduction rather than training a straddled flyaway.

You must understand there is a progressive standpoint behind this skill that is not just to teach a Deltchev. Your National Program coaches are not just wasting time trying to make coaches and gymnast's frustrated on performing a skill that might not be necessary to their future development, even if the skill was not chosen as part of the routine. The straddle flyway teaches a gymnast to pull backwards on the rings prior to the release point on a basic flyway. Tell a gymnast to perform this without pulling backwards and you will find yourself in a precarious spotting position. It emphasizes the pull back of the rings necessary, again, for the fundamental process of basic swing.

Like the FHS-bounder, it's a great skill if we assume the gymnasts will perform it correctly right from the start. But as you said, if they do it incorrectly, they better hope they have a good spotter.

The straddle does force gymnasts to release prior to their hips comming past the straps; I'll give it that. However, it also teaches them to pike on the way up, and it makes it impossible for them to get the sort of outward throw of the rings necessary for higher-level dismounts.

I don't like the lower to shoulderstand from handstand, and the subsequent bail from shoulder stand. I don't think we should be doing a routine that specifically teaches a bent-arm bail

The idea is certainly not to teach a bent arm bail, rather to allow for a safe progression from the Handstand bail position. It allows a gymnast a 'medium height' starting position to understand the hanging position that a bail will present rather then going directly from handstand, something that is invaluable when introcuding basic bail progressions.

As with PH, I've changed my stance since I wrote that, and I think you're completely right.

You must understand, even though some of the progressions, routines, sequences, etc. seem to the underlying eye to be worthless, stagnant and 'idiotic' you are talking high level, national gymnastics coaches dictating the direction which they want their national system to progress. They will take this progress very seriously and will not include anything that is going to hinder their progress in the future. Even if the proposals are not gone ahead with, the ideas are there for reasons, for basic progressions that help build fundamental bases for basic level gymnasts. You can't just disagree with these ideas without asking yourself what it is that National level coaches would do to put USA in jeapordy of teaching improper progressions/techniques for the talent of the future, even if they are just proposals!

I completely understand that there are reasons behind every single one of the changes to the routines; I would love to hear what they are. However, "These coaches are more experienced than you" is hardly enough explanation for me to accept whatever they have to say without question. Many of the most useful things I've learned about coaching have been from coaches with very little experience, and I can think of a few coaches with 10+ years experience who I still consider to be ineffective coaches.

There has been an updated version sent out since the version posted here. I'll post the new version later tonight.

 

[BlairBob]

I'll beat you to it, Geoffrey. I posted them to Drillsandskills awhile back, but it never got much response. Perhaps not enough MAG coaches or we are all too busy with the season.

Level 4:

· Handstand forward roll
· Jump hurdle to cartwheel, chasse’, cartwheel, ¼ turn in to tall stand
· Tucked backward roll (with extension) to hollowed prone support
· One push-up
· Press with straight arms to straddled stand
· Press to headstand (2 sec. hold)
· Forward roll to piked sit (momentary? hold)
· Straddle to pancake (momentary? hold)
· Roll backward from pancake bringing legs together to candle stand (show full extension)
· Roll forward from candle-stand position to stand
· Run, hurdle, roundoff and rebound to stick.

Level 5:

· Run, hurdle, front handspring (rebound allowed)
· Step to handstand forward roll (no hold required)
· Roll through tuck and pike up to handstand ½ pirouette
· Pike down from handstand and back extension roll to hollowed prone support
· Jump to straddled stand
· Press to handstand
· Roll to piked sit
· Straddle and pancake split (2 sec. hold)
· Roll backward from pancake bringing legs together to candle stand (show full extension)
· Roll forward from candle-stand position to stand
· Run, dive roll (body straight or slightly hollowed), step and forward chasse’ to cartwheel
· ¼ turn forward to lunge
· Front scale (2 sec. hold)
· Step, kick, jump ½ turn to stick
· Run, Roundoff, back handspring, rebound and stick


Level 6:

· Run hurdle front handspring step out, front handspring (rebound allowed)
· kick handstand straight arm forward roll, jump ½ turn
· back extension to handstand fall to prone position
· Swing leg forward to split (2 sec. hold)
· swing other leg forward to pike sit
· Roll backward from pancake bringing legs together to candle stand (show full extension)
· Roll forward from candle-stand position to straddled stand
· Press handstand (2 sec. hold)
· forward roll to stand, run punch front somersault
· kick to handstand, straight arm forward roll pike up to 1/1 pirouette roll to 1 knee
· 180’ turn backwards to stand, lunge to forward scale, bring legs together to stand
· Run, hurdle, Roundoff, back handspring, back somersault tucked

Level 7:

· Run, Roundoff, back handspring, layout back somersault
· Tucked or piked back extension roll to early 180° reverse pirouette to prone position
· Move any leg forward to any split
· From any split: Straight arms, bent body straddled press to handstand
· Optional corner transition
· Front handspring step-out, front handspring, front somersault (tucked, piked or layout)
· (front handspring, bounder, front somersault for bonus)
· Optional corner transition
· Roundoff, back handspring, back handspring, tucked back somersault
· (Roundoff, whip back, back handspring, tucked back somersault for bonus)

Pommel Horse:

Level 4:

Mushroom Routine Only:
· 3.5 Circles
· 5.5 Circles – Bonus

Level 5:

Mushroom Routine:

· 5.5 circles
· 7.5 circles – Bonus

Horse Routine:

· Jump to 3 straddled swings
· Leg cut forward to 3 stride swings
· Leg cut backward to
· Leg cut forward to 3 stride swings (the other way)
· Leg cut backward to
· Leg cut forward
· Leg cut forward to dismount

Level 6:

Mushroom Routine:

· 5 circles
· 3 flaired circles
· 2.5 circles

Horse Routine:

· Jump to single leg travel up from end to saddle
· 2 consecutive false scissors
· Straddled swing
· 2 consecutive false scissors (the other way)
· Straddled swing to feignt to
· 1.5 circles to dismount (as in current level 6 set)

Bonus:

· Jump to 2 front loops – 0.2 Bonus
· Jump to 4 front loops – 0.4 Bonus


Level 7:

Horse routine (pendular)

· Jump to 3 straddled swings
· Leg cut to 3 false scissors
· Straddled swing
· leg cut to 3 false scissors (the other way)
· Leg cut to rear support pick-up into
· 1.5 circles on the pommels to dismount (as in current level 6)

Horse routine: (circular)

· Jump to 2-3 circles on the pommels
· (Czechkehr for bonus here)
· 2 circles
· 2 flaired circles
· 2 circles
· Side travel to 2 front loops and loop ½ turn dismount

Bonus: (and it needs to be real big bonus)

Instead of side travel to front loops and dismount:
· Direct Stockli-A and 1/3 cross-support travel to the end and 2 back loops to dismount



Still Rings:

Level 4:

· From straight arm hang, pull to flexed arm hang
· (2nd pull up for bonus)
· Lower to straight arm hang; raise legs to hanging “Lâ€￾ (2 sec. hold)
· “Dropâ€￾ legs and swing backward
· Swing forward, Swing backward
· Swing forward, Swing backward
· Swing forward, Swing backward
· Swing forward to straight arm inverted hang
· Lower legs to piked body inverted hang
· (bonus for extension through back lever position with momentary hold)
· Lower to long hang position
· Drop and stick landing

Level 5:

· Muscle up to support (spot allowed) lock arm turn out and hold (2 sec. hold)
· L, roll backwards to piked inverted hang
· back lever, lower to long hang
· pull out, cast to back swing
· front swing, back swing
· front swing, back swing
· front swing, back swing
· inlocate to back swing
· front swing, back swing
· front swing, back swing
· front swing to straddled flyaway.

Level 6:

· Pull to inverted hang
· cast, back swing, front swing
· back swing to up rise, lock arm turn out and hold, L
· press to shoulder stand (handstand on inside of straps for bonus)
· roll back to piked inverted hang
· extend to back lever (2 sec. hold)
· lower to long hang, pull out to piked inverted hang
· Cast to back swing
· Front swing, back swing
· Front swing, back swing to
· inlocate, inlocate
· back swing, front swing
· back swing, front swing to
· dislocate, dislocate
· (bonus for shoulders at or above ring height on any inlocate or dislocate)
· Layout flyaway


Level 7:

· Pull to inverted hang
· Cast, back up rise, lock arm turn out and hold, L
· Press to tucked planche
· lower to L
· press to handstand on inside of straps
· lower to shoulder stand
· bail to 2 inlocates
· back swing, front swing
· back swing front swing to
· 2 dislocates
· Front swing to layout back somersault (double back allowed)

Vault:

No changes are anticipated on vault other than to re-define the special performance criteria for the evaluation of the run and the hurdle to the board.


Parallel Bars:

Level 4:

· From stand, jump to support and swing forward
· Swing backward
· Swing forward,Swing backward
· Swing forward, Swing backward
· Swing forward to a straddle leg position on the bars
· Immediately reach hands in front of legs and lift legs off bars, (straddled travel) and swing forward to “Lâ€￾ position (2 sec. hold)
· Swing backward, swing forward
· Swing backward, swing forward
· Swing backward, swing forward
· Swing backward to dismount over either rail

Level 5:

· From stand or short run, long hang swing forward
· Long hang swing backward, long hang swing forward
· Long hang swing backward and uprise to upper arm support
· Upper arm support swing forward to piked upper-arm “castâ€￾ position
· Cast to backward upper arm support swing to back uprise to support
· Swing forward, swing backward
· Swing forward, swing backward
· Swing forward, swing backward to handstand hold (2 sec. hold)
· Swing forward, swing backward
· swing forward and straddle legs to straddled sit on bars
· straddled travel to swing forward
· Swing backward and bail to long hang swing forward to
· flyaway off end of bars (allow a hand spot on hand for bail)


Level 6:

· From stand or short run, Glide kip to back swing
· Front swing, back swing
· Moy to upper arm support (“castâ€￾ position allowed)
· Back swing to back up rise
· Front swing, back swing to straddle L
· press to handstand
· Front swing, swing to handstand hold (2 sec. hold)
· Front swing, back swing
· Front swing to straddle sit
· Straddle travel to swing forward
· Swing backward and bail to long hang swing forward to
· flyaway off end of bars (allow a hand spot on hand for bail)

Level 7:

· From stand or short run, glide kip to support
· Swing backward and bail
· Moy to upper arm support
· (giant to support and front swing to “Lâ€￾ for bonus)
· Back uprise to “Lâ€￾ (2 sec, hold)
· Piked or straddled press to handstand (2 sec. hold)
· Swing forward, swing backward to
· layaway to front uprise
· swing backward to nominal handstand
· swing forward, swing backward to pirouette in either direction
· (early pirouette either forward or backward to handstand for bonus)
· Swing forward, swing backward to
· Either swing forward to back tucked somersault dismount or swing forward and swing backward to wende dismount


Horizontal Bar:

Level 4:

· Pull over
· Cast to horizontal
· Undershoot
· Swing backward and hop
· Swing forward
· Swing backward and hop
· Swing forward
· Swing backward and hop
· Swing forward with ½ turn to mixed grip
· Swing forward, swing backward and change grip to double overgrip
· Swing forward, swing backward
· drop to dismount and stick.


Level 5:

· Cast and back swing
· Front swing, back swing (tapping action)
· Front swing to swinging pullover (with tapping action)
· Undershoot to back swing
· Front swing to kip (stop permitted) (immediate kip-cast for bonus)
· Cast to back hip circle (clear hip circle for bonus)
· Undershoot to back swing and hop
· Front swing, back swing and hop
· Front swing, back swing and hop
· Front swing with ½ turn and block the bar to immediate drop to feet and stick

Level 6:

· Cast to back swing
· front swing to kip
· stop and change to double undergrip
· cast to handstand
· ¾ giant to hop to double overgrip (undergrip giant before ¾ giant for bonus)
· Front swing, back swing
· Front swing with ½ turn to mixed grip
· Front swing, back swing and change to double overgrip
· Front swing and kip to support
· Cast to ¾ overgrip giant swing (overgrip giant before ¾ giant for bonus) to
· Undershoot to back swing
· Front swing, back swing
· Front swing to flyaway dismount (tucked, piked or layout)


Level 7:

· Cast to back up rise
· controlled stop and change grip to under-grip
· Cast to handstand
· 2 to 3 front giants (endo allowed for bonus)
· Pirouette
· 2 to 3 back giants
· Swing ½ turn or hop ½ turn (minimum 45° above horizontal)
· 2 or 3 back giants (clear hip, stalder or piked toe-on, toe-off allowed for bonus)
· Flyaway dismount (tucked, piked or layout)
· (3/4 giant to undershoot, back swing to front swing allowed before dismount)
(There will be no option for a double back dismount)

 

[BlairBob]

I've been meaning to email Jeff Robinson my lowly opinion for what it's worth.

While I figure the straddled flyaway was not towards a deltchev, I still don't like it. Maybe I'll play with it but I can only imagine a lot of hairy dismounts. I could just take the deduction but I'm sure my parents would never understand why even if I explained it to them. It's all about the trophies and placing when it comes to compulsories.

From the national training point, I understand having all the extra swings is to make sure coaches train the development of swing and athletes show their development of their swing. Much of the time, it will come down to coaches only training what is in the routine.

Training swinging into the back uprise, teaches of course, not to push and muscle it early.

I still detest the swinging pullover, but that's also because I hate them.

While there are some awesome level 5's doing their false scissors out there, for the bulk of them it's so-so to craptastic.

I don't find the difference of a false scissor and a scissor any different. Slightly. Give me a kid with good false scissors and they will have scissors going home. Training the athlete to have consecutive false scissors is just swing development.

Part of some of this is keeping the difficulty down so we don't have boy's dropping out of their levels because it's too hard. We still need boy's gymnastic programs to survive. We all see this in the girl's but it's no biggie because they have 5-10x our numbers.

To have successful boy's programs we needs numbers at the bottom to support the top.

 

[ZJsMom]

I'm just coming back to this since my ds just finished his first season on team. I'm kind of bummed that they took the back hipcircle out of level 4--it's one of the things he actually does really well. I actually don't understand it--level 4 high bar needs more elements not fewer.

My question, having both a girl and a boy in gymnastics, is what if any interaction or coordination is there between USAG men's and women's JO programs? The new floor routines do seem to borrow from the girls routines. Vault on the other hand, seems to take such a different approach. My dd is always saying the boys have it so much easier. It is interesting to see little 7-yo girls vaulting over the table when the level 5 boys aren't. I don't really understand the use of the front tuck as a vault drill--it seems like a front layout would make a lot more sense. Can some one explain the theory behind the vault progression in the boys program?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Can some one explain the theory behind the vault progression in the boys program?

I would love to hear an explanation as well, honestly. While I understand that the idea is to teach kids how to properly hit a springboard, I really think the girls' system is FAR superior to the boys in teaching a good handspring vault.

A straight jump is a dumb vault, because it requires you to HIT THE BOARD INCORRECTLY. If you do a good hurdle followed by a good punch on the board, you rotate. It's as simple as that.

A front tuck is a dumb vault, because it's only useful if we assume it's being done absolutely perfectly. Yes, you can hit a springboard properly and then do a front tuck onto a mat. But in training kids to do the skill, what far more often occurs is that they drop their chests in order to flip faster (ie they hit the board incorrectly.) It also doesn't do anything to teach heel drive.

With my guys, I don't even bother working their competition vaults except the one or two practices before a meet. They work handstand flatbacks (like L4 girls), front layouts, and, for those who are ready, handsprings over the table.

 

[blantonnick]

I think at such an early level perhaps the thinking is not to touch on heel drive at all but rather to encourage a strong run with long strides, a long hurdle onto the springboard, correct foot placement on the springboard and a strong punch from the springboard....
I have stated this before and would like to emphasise it again:
I grew up in the USA program, did JO's from beginning to Level 1 (the equivalent to Level 10 now) and understand the national coaching staff's reasoning behind the progression they set for the junior program. They would never initiate a drill, skill, or progression that would jeapordize or inhibit the progress of their national program. The routines that they establish are in the best interest of the basic progression of beginning level gymnastics and are not 'dumb' as stated....

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I have outlined why I dissagree with some of these progressions, and until I hear a better reason than "trust them, they know what they're doing," I will continue to dissagree.

What I would really like to see is an explanation behind the routines, rather than just the routines themselves.

 

[ZJsMom]

I'm not ready to opine that the boys vaulting progressions are "dumb". But I don't see why the progressions are above question and we should just assume the JO progressions are set up in the best interest of the national program. The reason I asked the question is because the girls program and the boys program take totally different approaches to developing vault. Obviously, both are intended to be in the best interest of the national program and develop strong vaulters, but why shouldn't we ask if one is better than the other, or why they're using different approaches?

 

[BlairBob]

Geoffrey, if you ever saw the preliminary routines from the last quaddrenium; it went front tuck, front layout, and front handspring in levels 4, 5, and 6. I'd much prefer these as I'll agree straight jump is pretty hokey.

However, if they can yet even do a nice straight jump not letting their torso arch as they tend to do, there is no way we can get them to punch and get a front handspring out of it.

I would argue I could get many level 5 boys to vault on a table with ease. I could easily take all my level 5's ( they are around 9 or 10 though ). When I had little level 5's, I could easily have any of them go over a low table as well.

The complaint I heard from many of those on the committee is that the level 4 vault just teaches them to lean over the board and ya' just get some divey thing into a handstand.

I think they took down the difficulty, dumbing it down, to just make it easier. USA gymnastics knows that MAG needs more numbers just to keep on surviving. I'm wary because I hear AAU has L3 routines for boys and I think L4 is easy enough. However, L4 is supposed to be a rec level but very few compete it as and all parents at that level are screaming bloody murder when their little guys aren't scoring 52's, medaling, etc.

L4 are enough of a chore coaching mentally, I can only imagine L3 as a coaching nightmare. Of course, they would probably be coming in half the time, and we could compete the boys even sooner into gym versus L4 for boy's is between 6months and a year ( and about 2 to 3 years for younger girls, 1 to 2 for older girls ). From what I've gathered, compulsory routines in the 90's were far more difficult for their respective class levels to what they are on now. This is from coaches who used to compete then or ex gymnasts who can vaguely remember their old compulsory routines.

There are a lot of back hip circles competed in level 4 that are pretty crummy and still in level 5. I laugh when I hear all this hoopla about doing a free hip with just daylight at that level when their back hip is less than stellar. Gain bonus and lose execution.

Geoffrey, I imagine if we went to the training camps coming up in June or so, we'd find out why the routines have these skills, their progressions and what they are trying to foresee. I'd like to go but don't know if I'll have the money and time and I'm not sure I could get it paid for by the Booster Club or owners. Especially at my old gym that only had a half dozen boys and this new one that has yet to have a boy's team but there is clammer for me to start one.

Would you rather see a good dive roll with hecht action at level 4? Basically just like the ideal dive roll we see in the L5 JO WAG? Thinking about the time into gymnastics, I'm just not sure it's feasible.

I will sound biased here, but I am sure I could take any level 5 boy I've had and vault them just as well compared to a girl of their level and age. Well, 90%. Given though, typically the girls have been in gymnastics longer with more training hours than the boys. I've never had a boy have head problems going over the table. Except me, but I really liked the old horse for some reason. Hah. Most of the problem is getting them to run hard enough and hit the board with that power. With the boy's it's more about controlling and being efficient with that power. Some of the little level 5 guys at 7 year old were what I call train wreck runners. I'm just expecting them to trip up their form was so awkward.

I would also argue that the MAG National committee still wants to train a really good board punch because handspring front and so forth are still viable vaults for the guys while it's very rare for the gals. They are mostly training yurchenko, and maybe tsuk and never hoping for big vaults off a handspring alone with multiple saltos. Just a possibility.

Perhaps front tuck salto is there simply because we knows boys love to flip. They love it from day 1 into the pit and love doing front tucks. Possibly more fun than vaulting off the table and definitely more so than a mat stack. Big whoopeety do. Fun needs to be a big factor for those lower levels. In that regard, I dislike the straight jump vault. I'd rather see handstand to stacked mats, however most lil guys are fairly poor at punching a board and understanding the mechanics of it.

ZJsMom, I really doubt there is much of interaction or coordination of the WAG and MAG national committees. I doubt they see eye to eye, but evaluate and judge what each other is doing. About the only ones who probably do so are those that coach in both which is probably a minority in men's programs big enough that demand not sharing a coach who also coaches in the women's. I'm a product of a journeylevel coach that has coached actively in both concurrently the past some years.

In a way, I see L4 boy's as a sort of basic training to get into L5 for when I really consider them trainable further in gymnastics that will get on to higher levels. It is as much training them mentally as well as physical preparation for L5 which I really enjoy training. Perhaps because I see L5 as a competitive level and Level 4 as a rec level still. Perhaps, because I am getting boys into L4 and trying to get them and their parents trained for a future in competitive gymnastics. In some ways, I'm treating the L4's somewhat to how little boys sign up for a sport and compete in 1 month ( in this case, 6 months to a year ).

 

[flipflopBeth]

Does anyone know the bonus moves for level 5 boys? My son is working roundoff backhandspring backhandspring back tuck on floor and his coach says that is the bonus. That seems pretty tough for level 5. Also, have the proposed level 5 routines changed? Anyone heard anything about a roudoff vault for level 5? Thanks.

 

[BlairBob]

Bonus moves for L5 USAG 2009-2012

FX: straight arm straddle press instead of jumping to, RO-BH-BH is the bonus ( no back tuck as RO-BH-BH-BT is L6 bonus pass )

Mushroom: 2 additional flair circles before dismount, 2 additional double leg circles after bonus 1 before dismount

No PH bonus

SR: Muscle-up with no spot, back lever for 2s

V: performance and stick bonus

PB: swing to HS, HS for 3s before dismount

HB: connected kip to cast, free/clear hip circle

I didn't notice the compulsories changed over to the new scoring system as well.

There is a round off timer in the Future Stars program, wherein one level is close to level 5, but this is an age dependent program.

The routines posted earlier are not completely correct. Hopefully your gym has bought the new materials for this quaddrenium.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Got the new materials. I still hate the vaults, and the jury's still out on whether I like the straddled flyaway from rings. And I think 3.5 circles on mushroom is too hard for most L4 gymnasts. But for the most part, these routines really aren't as bad as I'd feared they might be.

I'll post a more complete analysis later.

 

[flipflopBeth]

Thanks for the great response. Just found out that my son is going to test for the Future Stars Program in October. Anyone had experience with this program? Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[BlairBob]

Last year I asked one family if they wanted to go to the testing but since it wasn't covered in the Booster budget, it would probably have to be out of pocket. Mainly, I wanted to give him some experience on what other boys were doing besides our gym as he was a new L5 at the time. He was going to compete L1 instead of per his age group of 10. No way, he could go regional, but mainly it was for the experience.

In California, they have modified the Future Star's program a bit. I've been to the clinics and they were as well, but it is more about boys who are competent enough to take to the testings.