"Punishment" for not making a skill

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Not sure if punishment is the right word choice but here's the questions -

My DD (9yrold and L5)didn't make her kip at practice the other night (but has made it in the past but just not consistent yet) and the coach at the end of class told her to do 100 sit ups (believe it involved lifting here legs too) and let the other girls head home because they made one - is that the norm for coaches?

Let me first play devil's advocate by saying I understand where the coach is coming from; kips do require a certain level of ab strength, and if he delivered it as "here's what you need to do to get this skill better" rather than "here's what you get for not making it," he may have kind of sort of halfway had the right idea.

That said, he's wrong on a number of levels in my opinion. For one, training 100 reps of just about any conditioning exercise is pretty much useless; you can get far greater benefits by doing fewer reps (like, 15 or less) reps of a more intense exercise. For another, sit-ups really don't address the muscles needed for a kip as well as a number of other exercises; there are far, far more efficient ways of building the strength needed for a kip. Third, and perhaps most importantly, I think singling out a kid like that and drawing attention to something they perceive as a failure is an extremely bad idea.

 

[gym law mom]

I have to agree with everyone else that having 1 child stay to do v ups or sit ups because she didn't make her kip that night is not the way to teach skills. Sounds like kips aren't real consistent with all the girls, so the coach should be focusing on getting them all at the same level which may require a little more conditioning for the abs or drills while waiting to do bar work. Singling out 1 child and making her stay is just mean.

Yes, my gymmie has been on the receiving end of this type of coaching. At our former gym she and her teammates were trying to learn to flip a yurchenko off the vault table----way too soon in my opinion. The coach sat about 10 feet away and just watched. One of gymmie's attempts wasn't good----he yelled at her and said it was "scary", made no corrections and banished her to the opposite end of the gym to do rope climbs until the rest were done vaulting. Not effective at all. She never did find out what she was doing wrong on the vault.

This coach could be much more effective if he would explain to your dd or show her what she is not doing or doing incorrecly in her kip.

 

[Blackie6]

My DD actually loves doing conditioning. I know that is not the norm but she will even do it at home! They have never used conditioning as a punishment at her gym so that may be why she likes it. At our gym you just can't move to the next skill in the progression if you have not done the one before. So if you did not get your kip you would not be able to do a squat on jump to the high bar until you made the kip and so on.

But I do think alot of gyms do use that as a form of punishment and I think it is unfortunate.

LOL, my DD is like yours, loves conditioning and I think conditioning has been used as punishment at my DD's old gym and new gym, but to my knowledge not for NOT making a skill...more as a punishment for fooling around, not paying attention, ect...

At old gym there was a lot of progression of the skills too...often once my DD satified coach w/her L4 beam/bars routine she was allowed to move onto 5 and 6 skills. Not so much of this at new gym though, and miss it, my DD likes to try new things!

I think a good coach would understand about the kip & know extra conditioning will do nothing for it. My DD had it, lost it and had it a gallion times since she was about 5. That is just one of those skills that is not like any other.

 

[GetaGrip]

I'll say it (wait, i'll yell it) again

NO CHILD SHOULD EVER BE PUNISHED WITH CONDITIONING!!!!!!! EVER, EVER EVER.

I completely agree!
My old coach used to get mad at me all the time, and my punishment was 100 push ups if I got scared to do a full twisting layout, or a backhandspring on the beam or clear hip handstand into giants on the strap bar (all in level 5).
I left that gym, and I really, very strongly believe that conditioning is the WORST punishment possible.

-GCG

 

[ffliwt]

My old gym did. My first coaches who were my coaches for like 10 years swore at us, told us we were a waste of their time and space and would never amount to anything, just if we couldn't do something. They got so angry.
Then we got new coaches and they were a lot nicer but if kids couldnt do something every time they didnt get it they'd have to do rope climbs, v-sits or pressups. Meaning that most kids had to do pressups after every time they attempted something. Even though i'm 18, when i was having trouble landing full twists a coach said that if i didnt get it i'd have to join in the 'pressup game'.
I'm in a new gym now and although very strict, they never do that. And we are a MUCH more successful gym!
I don't think punishment like that works, it just made me feel useless - it's not our fault if we don't have the technique to get that specific skill yet!

 

[CoachTodd]

I have used conditioning as a motivation only with certain gymnasts. I have one girl that if I say you have push ups if you don't make your kips, she makes everyone. I don't think I've ever actually had to give her the push ups. If she does fail, I usually do the double or nothing until she makes it.
I have assigned various conditioning for certain skills that is relevant to the skill. i.e. toe touches and jump to front support for kips. Never 100 though. I also say (jokingly)" while you are doing your push ups, think about what it is you need to fix in your vault". I try to keep things fun.

 

[gymjourneymom]

Has anyone ever used or endured this lovely psychological "training" practice my DD's HC tried to employ? If she balked at a skill due to her fear issues, he would make all of her teammates do conditioning...but not her. Nice huh??? Talk about psychological abuse!!! Don't worry, I've already confronted him about it. And it seems to have stopped. I'm just hoping this isn't a common practice elsewhere. No child should be mentally abused in such a way!

 

[Tim_Dad]

That said, he's wrong on a number of levels in my opinion. For one, training 100 reps of just about any conditioning exercise is pretty much useless; you can get far greater benefits by doing fewer reps (like, 15 or less) reps of a more intense exercise. For another, sit-ups really don't address the muscles needed for a kip as well as a number of other exercises; there are far, far more efficient ways of building the strength needed for a kip.

Thank you!!

My thoughts exactly. Reads to me that this "coach" needs a few lessons in proper coaching AND conditioning drills/techniques. 100 reps of any one exersize is pointless. Especially with situp or V-Up's! After the first 20 or so - it's not even toning anymore, and the athlete is most likely using her momentum to do the rep, and not an abdominal contraction. It's counter productive to any goals.

Unfortunately, I see this all the time (an insane high number of reps -- not conditioning as punishment thank goodness.) As a "no-nothing parent", I only shake my head and keep quiet. Just goes to show that even the biggest and most outfitted gym means nothing unless qualified coaches are running the show. My heart is with the girls that endure such misguided and abusive coaches.

 

[gymjourneymom]

IMHO, using fear/threats to force a skill will only generate fear in the gymnast. The poor child that this technique is used on, is learning to fear the coach, more than learning a love of the sport. It will back fire at some point & it will be the child who suffers. She may start to have mental blocks or just hate the sport & quit. I beg all coaches to find more effective training practices than threats & instilling fear in the gymnasts. Belittling or embarassing a young girl, by punishing with conditoning her in front of her teammates. Or punshing the teammates with conditoning, it's all psychological abuse & needs to stop!!! There is a time & a place for conditioning & yes it is EXTREMLY necessary for good training...BUT it should NEVER be used as punishment.

 

[gymjourneymom]

I have used conditioning as a motivation only with certain gymnasts. I have one girl that if I say you have push ups if you don't make your kips, she makes everyone. I don't think I've ever actually had to give her the push ups. If she does fail, I usually do the double or nothing until she makes it.
I have assigned various conditioning for certain skills that is relevant to the skill. i.e. toe touches and jump to front support for kips. Never 100 though. I also say (jokingly)" while you are doing your push ups, think about what it is you need to fix in your vault". I try to keep things fun.

Just because this practice "works" on this particular child, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I sincerely hope you & other coaches will rethink this practice. JMHO, as the mom of a child it "worked" on for a while. Eventually you may need to follow thru on your threats, then what? Then you have to keep upping the threat level. It's an abusive cycle...please don't go down that road. It doesn't work in the long run and causes a lot of damage.

 

[taximom]

I agree conditioning should not be used as a punishment for not making a skill ever!

I also agree that it may seem to work for awhile but it will backfire.

Gymnasts need to trust their coaches at all times. When coaches act this way it breaks the trust, the child feels that they have done something wrong and end up discouraged. We all know that gym is a marathon, some days will be good and others not so good. And remember most of these gymnasts are young children!!!!!

With my children I try to discipline outright defiance. The child must have the capability to do what I am asking or it is not appropriate for me to "punish". I may redirect or role model/play the desired behaviour or response but the purpose is to teach the child not punish. I have to keep in mind the long term plan not just do what would be easy in the moment.

 

[CoachTodd]

Just because this practice "works" on this particular child, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I sincerely hope you & other coaches will rethink this practice. JMHO, as the mom of a child it "worked" on for a while. Eventually you may need to follow thru on your threats, then what? The you have to keep upping the threat level. It's an abusive cycle...please don't go down that road. It doesn't work in the long run and causes a lot of damage.

I'm not using it as a threat with that particular gymnast. It is actually almost a joke. She's a great kid and for some reason it makes her brain decide to correct her technique. I used to work with a coach that punished kids for not making the skill and was taught to coach that way. I decided it wasn't a good way to coach but this particular kid came up through that system. I guess it's kind of a reminder of how it used to be and she'd rather just do the skill. I actually have some girls that give themselves push-ups for doing or not doing certain things. I think it's kind of odd that they use it to motivate themselves. I prefer positive reinforcement to negative but I think some of these poor kids heard the negative for so long, that is what they respond to the best. It has been years trying to get that out of their system and have them respond better to more positive reinforcement.

 

[gymjourneymom]

I'm not using it as a threat with that particular gymnast. It is actually almost a joke. She's a great kid and for some reason it makes her brain decide to correct her technique. I used to work with a coach that punished kids for not making the skill and was taught to coach that way. I decided it wasn't a good way to coach but this particular kid came up through that system. I guess it's kind of a reminder of how it used to be and she'd rather just do the skill. I actually have some girls that give themselves push-ups for doing or not doing certain things. I think it's kind of odd that they use it to motivate themselves. I prefer positive reinforcement to negative but I think some of these poor kids heard the negative for so long, that is what they respond to the best. It has been years trying to get that out of their system and have them respond better to more positive reinforcement.

Sounds like you already know what a negative influence conditioning as punishment can be. I'm glad you can see the damage that was already done to these girls. They've LEARNED to self punish!!! And if that is what you see on the outside, I can only imagine the internal mental damage that's been done. This line of thinking will carry over to life outside the gym. It's VERY damaging in many ways & on many levels. Please guide them appropriately & break this dysfuntional cycle. Thank you for trying to be a better coach! Please continue to learn new training techniques. And train your girls in POSITIVE ways. I give you credit for not wanting to be like the coach you used to work with!

 

[sheplaysinthechalk]

They've LEARNED to self punish!!! And if that is what you see on the outside, I can only imagine the internal mental damage that's been done. This line of thinking will carry over to life outside the gym. It's VERY damaging in many ways & on many levels. Please guide them appropriately & break this dysfuntional cycle. !

This was my point exactly.

Conditioning has to be a part of gymnastics. And "exercise" is essential to human health. Punishing with conditioning is damaging - whether it's push ups, v sits, leg lifts, running laps, etc.

What child who has been punished with conditioning will wake up one day when gymnastics is an afterthought and say to themselves "i think i'd like to go for a run today"...

Not that ALL children punished with conditioning will absolutely hate exercising and have nothing to do with it in their post-gymnastics days, but it certainly isn't going to be something that they look forward to - especially if they have learned to associate conditioning/exercise with "i'm not good enough"

 

[gymluvr33]

See, at our gym, generally on bars, we will do a small amount of conditioning if we miss a skill. However, it is a always a skill that we should have consistantly. For example, the first time we miss a squat on, we will get a warning. Then each time we fall on our squat on after that, we will have 10 or so frog jumps to do. Or if we tap our legs after our clear hip circles, we will hang from the bar in a pike (or straddle, depending on what type of kip you do), and hold for the count of 10. Is this bad? I always thought of it as helping us to gain the strength we need to be able to do the skill correctly.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

 

[sheplaysinthechalk]

See, at our gym, generally on bars, we will do a small amount of conditioning if we miss a skill. However, it is a always a skill that we should have consistantly. For example, the first time we miss a squat on, we will get a warning. Then each time we fall on our squat on after that, we will have 10 or so frog jumps to do. Or if we tap our legs after our clear hip circles, we will hang from the bar in a pike (or straddle, depending on what type of kip you do), and hold for the count of 10. Is this bad? I always thought of it as helping us to gain the strength we need to be able to do the skill correctly.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

There is a difference between assigning drills for missing a skill and assigning punishment for missing a skill. I really don't see any fine lines off the top of my head with this. Assigning 10 or 15 "jump to squats" to drill for a squat on is way different than "you missed your squat on. And, since you missed your squat on you have to do 15 squat to rebound"

 

[gymluvr33]

Thanks, I thought it was ok, but after reading all the other posts, I wanted to check.

 

[CoachTodd]

There is a difference between assigning drills for missing a skill and assigning punishment for missing a skill. I really don't see any fine lines off the top of my head with this. Assigning 10 or 15 "jump to squats" to drill for a squat on is way different than "you missed your squat on. And, since you missed your squat on you have to do 15 squat to rebound"

I agree. I'll give conditioning drills to help get the fundamentals of the skill down better.

 

[gymnast167]

ropes

my coach's are married and i am on the team with their daughter. lately our coach on beam has given us 5 minutes to warm up our beam connection series and the we have to show 3. if we dont connect we get 2 ropes per incompletion of series and if we fall we get 1 more added onb. possibility of 9 ropes. i get really ticked because 3 ropes alone in addition to an hour and a half of conditioning earlier is ridiculous. we do beam every day and my arms are just dying. it is embarassing too. anyy thoughts on this type of conditioning.?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

colossal waste of time. but the rope will be good for your bars.