WAG Regressing on Vault

[Astraea_9]

Hi, my daughter is competing Xcel Bronze and started the season with a fairly good handstand flatback but as the season has worn on her performance and scores have regressed. She used to hit the handstand fine, with some piking of the legs, but nice strong arms and mostly straight fall. Now she sometimes bends her arms and rolls somewhat. Her scores have gone from high 8s to 7.7 at the last meet. Meanwhile her scores in the other events have climbed, so it’s just vault that throws her. She is definitely getting frustrated and reacted badly when her coach told her she was rolling during practice recently. She says she’s doing the same thing she always did and can’t understand why it’s not working anymore. Any ideas how to help her? I looked up vault drills online for ideas on what to practice at home but mostly I keep seeing ideas for the run and hurdle, which doesn’t seem to be her problem. It’s the part after leaving the board that she is struggling with.

 

[TheXcelMom]

This is perfectly normal.
When this happens to my daughter (and it happens all the time), I listen to her struggles, support her, feign ignorance of anything to do with gymnastics (maybe it's not feigning), and tell her to trust her coach.
It passes.
Then it happens again.
It's normal.

 

[Coach Kate]

This is perfectly normal.
When this happens to my daughter (and it happens all the time), I listen to her struggles, support her, feign ignorance of anything to do with gymnastics (maybe it's not feigning), and tell her to trust her coach.
It passes.
Then it happens again.
It's normal.

As a coach, I really appreciate this! Love, support, encourage, and enjoy your daughter's gymnastics, but always be mom and let coach be coach. Thank you so much for doing this!

 

[Dahlia]

This is perfectly normal.
When this happens to my daughter (and it happens all the time), I listen to her struggles, support her, feign ignorance of anything to do with gymnastics (maybe it's not feigning), and tell her to trust her coach.
It passes.
Then it happens again.
It's normal.

I agree it's very normal and to leave it up to the coaches to help her "fix".

Has she had a growth spurt recently? That often is the culprit with things like this - adapting to new body length and a shifting center of gravity. She may be doing the same things, but she actually needs to change it a bit (i.e. maybe timing, maybe height) to accommodate her changing body dimensions.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

She is definitely getting frustrated and reacted badly when her coach told her she was rolling during practice recently. She says she’s doing the same thing she always did and can’t understand why it’s not working anymore. Any ideas how to help her? I looked up vault drills online for ideas on what to practice at home but mostly I keep seeing ideas for the run and hurdle, which doesn’t seem to be her problem. It’s the part after leaving the board that she is struggling with.

While you shouldn't really get involved - that is not a helpful correction from the coach because the rolling is most likely to be the result of an earlier error. So I understand why your kid is getting frustrated because she probably can't make the correction despite her efforts.

To correct your thinking as well - low level vault is mostly about the run and the hurdle - if that goes wrong they physically cannot change what happens afterwards - no amount of 'heel drive' will fix the fact that a child ran full speed at the vault and then stepped to right next to the board - they will pike and roll in this instance as their momentum is still going forward.

If you have a look at the first four video's here and compare where gymnast 1&2 hurdle from (lines on floor are very helpful) to where gymnast 3 & 4 hurdle from. If you change the playback setting to slow it will also be easier to see how this alters their body position when they hit the board.

Vault #2 here would be a more extreme example

 

[katrid11]

Definitely do not try to help. Vault is about timing, form, and power. The timing and form can most certainly NOT be done at home and is more likely to get more messed up if tried.

The coach needs to video her vault and truly diagnose the location of errors b/c it is likely not the rolling part but something earlier. Could be her hurdle timing, form off the springboard, speed of run, steps in the run etc or a combination.

With DD she developed 2 habits on her FHS vault in L4 that took her scores from high 8s to low 7s. After 3 privates, Coach was able to rebuild her approach to the vault - the 2 habits were a stutter step right before hurdle messing up her form there and then hitting the board at a bad angle causing a deep pike. Once those were corrected, all of the other issues on the vault disappeared (arching on vault, lack of height and distance, low departure angle). Her vault was back to high 8s within a month.

Her coach knew what to correct by videoing 3-4 vaults and showing her and us what needed to be corrected and why it was best to do it in a private lesson.

IF you want to help at home - it would be through conditioning. DD also had weakened due to a growth spurt and had recently had covid. So squat jumps, box jumps, sprinting, lunges, stepups, squats, etc were done at home on off days.

FWIW many gymnasts say the "I am doing everything the same". Only a video can really show them that you may think it but your body is not doing it exactly the same way. While vault may look more simple than something like bars, just a minor change in approach can change the outcome of the vault. DDs coach had 1 teammate change her run by starting at a location 12in longer. The girl's vault went from a 9-9.3 to a 9.6-9.8.

 

[gympoppop]

I agree with the previous two posters to leave it to the coaches and that it is most likely in the preflight phase. But I will say that I was the type of athlete (and parent) that wants to understand the physics/exactly how something should be done so I'll offer what I think is a very helpful analogy for understanding how to vault properly.

FHS vaulting really comes down to only three things: speed, staying tight and contacting the springboard with the COM behind the feet. What you can show your daughter is that a pencil can do a perfect 10 FHS vault because it is able to do these three things (especially staying tight lol). You can demonstrate this by throwing a pencil with speed at a 45 degree angle with it's "feet" (the eraser) in front of its COM (belly button for person and midpoint of pencil). With the right throw the pencil will flip end over end and do a perfect vault. You can also show that the COM directly over the feet doesn't work (pencil just bounces up and doesn't flip) and that leaning forward would make the pencil just smash it's "face" into the mat (or have to pike if it could bend).

This little demonstration shows that less is often more with vaulting because even a pencil that knows nothing about gymnastics can do it. For a person, it works just like with the pencil. As the gymnast hurdles to the board, if the feet are in front of a vertical chest with tight legs contacting board at a 45 degree angle, the feet will stop (should feel like pushing board forward into table) but the upper body will keep moving forward from the run momentum. At the same time, the board compresses and springs up as the gymnast body gets to 45 degrees on the other side (angle of incidence = angle reflection) which will shoot gymnast up and flip them with no effort. Most of the "heel drive" is really just hitting the board correctly in this manner. And probably 90 percent or more of vault is really just the run and how they hit the board. I never understood why the preflight phase was judged until I realized this.

In your daughters case, I would bet if you watch video of her recent vaults that she is not striking the board with the COM/chest up and behind the feet. She is likely leaning forward and this is causing the rolling. It is counterintuitive to young gymnasts but you want to stay away from the vault mat/table and allow the board to do the work flipping you. But most will be leaning forward instead because that is more natural.

 

[TheXcelMom]

Do you have a video of the pencil thing. If I do it I'm just going to mar the walls.

 

[gympoppop]

Do you have a video of the pencil thing. If I do it I'm just going to mar the walls.

Haha . I don't but maybe use an unsharpened one! It takes a little practice to throw it with speed at the correct angle but it really does work and flips perfectly. Btw, without momentum the pencil will just bounce back towards you.

 

[AAAinNOLA]

The best advice I have adopted on this gym journey is know your role. There are 4. Athlete, Coach, Parent, Referee (Judge). Parent = drive, support, hug, listen, cheer. Sometimes less talking / advice is more. It's hard to see our kids struggle but we have to trust that the coach WILL get to it. If not and it persists then I find talking to the coach(es) directly in person *without* my gymnast to see what they're thinking about XYZ is best. Ideally the coach already knows and is working on it OR has de-prioritzed it for a moment *strategically* for whatever reason. The only way to know is ask the coach (not blame but ask). Either way I try to stay in my "MOM" lane. I drive her, pay for it, cheer, listen, encourage, video and tell her "you got this," and "trust your training." So far it has worked well for us to enjoy the sport, watch her grow and not take on the stress that is really her stress to own.

 

[Astraea_9]

While you shouldn't really get involved - that is not a helpful correction from the coach because the rolling is most likely to be the result of an earlier error. So I understand why your kid is getting frustrated because she probably can't make the correction despite her efforts.

To correct your thinking as well - low level vault is mostly about the run and the hurdle - if that goes wrong they physically cannot change what happens afterwards - no amount of 'heel drive' will fix the fact that a child ran full speed at the vault and then stepped to right next to the board - they will pike and roll in this instance as their momentum is still going forward.

If you have a look at the first four video's here and compare where gymnast 1&2 hurdle from (lines on floor are very helpful) to where gymnast 3 & 4 hurdle from. If you change the playback setting to slow it will also be easier to see how this alters their body position when they hit the board.

Vault #2 here would be a more extreme example

That is very helpful. I had to watch the first one at 1/2 speed to really see the difference but the second one was pretty obvious. I will watch her next vault with me eye to different things now. I suppose you are right I shouldn't get involved. I don't want to be 'that mom'. I just hate to see her feel frustrated and not be able to help.

 

[Kartrava]

I agree with the previous two posters to leave it to the coaches and that it is most likely in the preflight phase. But I will say that I was the type of athlete (and parent) that wants to understand the physics/exactly how something should be done so I'll offer what I think is a very helpful analogy for understanding how to vault properly.

FHS vaulting really comes down to only three things: speed, staying tight and contacting the springboard with the COM behind the feet. What you can show your daughter is that a pencil can do a perfect 10 FHS vault because it is able to do these three things (especially staying tight lol). You can demonstrate this by throwing a pencil with speed at a 45 degree angle with it's "feet" (the eraser) in front of its COM (belly button for person and midpoint of pencil). With the right throw the pencil will flip end over end and do a perfect vault. You can also show that the COM directly over the feet doesn't work (pencil just bounces up and doesn't flip) and that leaning forward would make the pencil just smash it's "face" into the mat (or have to pike if it could bend).

This little demonstration shows that less is often more with vaulting because even a pencil that knows nothing about gymnastics can do it. For a person, it works just like with the pencil. As the gymnast hurdles to the board, if the feet are in front of a vertical chest with tight legs contacting board at a 45 degree angle, the feet will stop (should feel like pushing board forward into table) but the upper body will keep moving forward from the run momentum. At the same time, the board compresses and springs up as the gymnast body gets to 45 degrees on the other side (angle of incidence = angle reflection) which will shoot gymnast up and flip them with no effort. Most of the "heel drive" is really just hitting the board correctly in this manner. And probably 90 percent or more of vault is really just the run and how they hit the board. I never understood why the preflight phase was judged until I realized this.

In your daughters case, I would bet if you watch video of her recent vaults that she is not striking the board with the COM/chest up and behind the feet. She is likely leaning forward and this is causing the rolling. It is counterintuitive to young gymnasts but you want to stay away from the vault mat/table and allow the board to do the work flipping you. But most will be leaning forward instead because that is more natural.

I love this pencil example and will try it to show my daughter.

Thanks!