WAG Simone's Yurchenko Double Pike: it's real!

[Carabistouille]

While I agree with the general idea, I would argue that the vault has been fairly valued.

The Produnova (handpring double front) is a 6.4 and handspring vaults are considered more difficult than Yurchenkos (for instance, handspring front tuck is 4.0 while Yurchenko back tuck is 3.3).
In MAG, Yurchenko double pike is a 5.6 while the anamar (yurchenko 2.5 twists) is a 5.2, so a .4 difference between the two. In WAG, the anamar is worth 5.8, so a .8 difference.

I honestly don't see the case for it being undervalued.

 

[MILgymFAM]

While I agree with the general idea, I would argue that the vault has been fairly valued.

The Produnova (handpring double front) is a 6.4 and handspring vaults are considered more difficult than Yurchenkos (for instance, handspring front tuck is 4.0 while Yurchenko back tuck is 3.3).
In MAG, Yurchenko double pike is a 5.6 while the anamar (yurchenko 2.5 twists) is a 5.2, so a .4 difference between the two. In WAG, the anamar is worth 5.8, so a .8 difference.

I honestly don't see the case for it being undervalued.

Wasn’t the prudinova also purposefully devalued?

 

[Carabistouille]

Yeah, although not by a big margin : all vaults lost .4 in start values, anamar lost .5, prod lost .6.
The biggest change was that if you land on your butt and feet simutaneously, it gets downgraded to a handspring front tuck (so 4.0 SV).

It's a fine line to walk... For instance, I fully agree with roll-out skills being banned on floor for both WAG and MAG. Same with triple front handspring in MAG.
It's not only about being able to perform those skills. Simone obviously can and I'm sure some other will at some point. It's also about failed attempts (there will be some) not having catastrophic results.

 

[novagymmom]

Another perspective of the start value . . .

Simone’s Vault Value – Does It Make Sense?

On Saturday at Classic—well, on Friday at podium training—Simone debuted her long-awaited Yurchenko double pike, forcing Sports-Balls across the nation to try to learn what gymnastics words are and…

balancebeamsituation.com

 

[JBS]

Here are some more...

Simone Biles Dials Up the Difficulty, ‘Because I Can’ (Published 2021)

The Olympic gold medalist’s new vault is so dangerous that gymnastics, for now, limits the scoring rewards for trying it. Biles says that’s unfair.

www.nytimes.com

Simone Biles Returns to Claim the Hardest Vault in Women’s Gymnastics History

After a long pandemic hiatus, Simone Biles is back—with the “Yurchenko double pike” placing a new record by her name.

www.wsj.com

 

[JBS]

 

[Deleted member 26368]

Food for thought...
https://www.theringer.com/platform/...iles-yurchenko-double-pike-us-classic-scoring

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I think deliberately undervaluing this vault is the right call.

Consider what happened with the Produnova vault. There was a period during which many women were competing blatantly-dangerous Produnova vaults, crashing their landings, and still making vault finals because the value was so high.

Other athletes cannot safely do what Simone can do, and discouraging them from trying is the right thing to do.

It's not like the comparatively low value will affect meet results; Simone is still untouchable.

 

[JBS]

This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I think deliberately undervaluing this vault is the right call.

Consider what happened with the Produnova vault. There was a period during which many women were competing blatantly-dangerous Produnova vaults, crashing their landings, and still making vault finals because the value was so high.

Other athletes cannot safely do what Simone can do, and discouraging them from trying is the right thing to do.

It's not like the comparatively low value will affect meet results; Simone is still untouchable.

Interesting… I hadn’t though of that… could be.

 

[MILgymFAM]

This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I think deliberately undervaluing this vault is the right call.

Consider what happened with the Produnova vault. There was a period during which many women were competing blatantly-dangerous Produnova vaults, crashing their landings, and still making vault finals because the value was so high.

Other athletes cannot safely do what Simone can do, and discouraging them from trying is the right thing to do.

It's not like the comparatively low value will affect meet results; Simone is still untouchable.

I don’t think it’s their job to do that- it’s the gymnast’s coach’s job.

 

[skschlag]

I don’t think it’s their job to do that- it’s the gymnast’s coach’s job.

I tend to agree, but I think we have seen over the past few years that the coaches do not always have the gymnast's best interests in mind.

I know there was a new skill for the men that was named, given a value, and immediately banned.

 

[MILgymFAM]

I tend to agree, but I think we have seen over the past few years that the coaches do not always have the gymnast's best interests in mind.

I know there was a new skill for the men that was named, given a value, and immediately banned.

I get that, but this isn’t the way to correct unsafe coaching imo. Also, they purposefully went open ended and this is the result of that- if they’re afraid of what they’ve created then they should change back. Additionally, there are probably skills that were once thought unheard of that are done more commonly now. Athletes have become more astounding as time goes on imo.

 

[JBS]

I don’t think it’s their job to do that- it’s the gymnast’s coach’s job.

It's a weird time in gymnastics. The D + E scoring has really created a sport that is all about the hardest skills. The word "artistic" is almost completely gone. In the past 15 years since the perfect 10 has been gone, difficulty has skyrocketed in all levels of gymnastics. However, it has probably increased more in Level 10 than it has in Elite.

Not sure what the right answer is to the value of skills.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I don’t think it’s their job to do that- it’s the gymnast’s coach’s job.

There is already a precedent for what happens when a skill is valued so highly that athletes can crash it and still score well, with the Produnova vault a few codes back. The result was a lot of scary and dangerous Produnovas at major international meets.

The code should be written in such a way to encourage safety.

 

[MILgymFAM]

There is already a precedent for what happens when a skill is valued so highly that athletes can crash it and still score well, with the Produnova vault a few codes back. The result was a lot of scary and dangerous Produnovas at major international meets.

The code should be written in such a way to encourage safety.

I mean, it’s not then open ended. Simone is an anomaly, but had the code been locked down we wouldn’t get to see how great she can be- and who knows if someone will come along and be the next to blow everyone else out of the water. Unless they change the open ended system it’s just straight punishing Simone’s greatness. Perhaps awarding proper values to new skills, but also with a harsh penalty for crashing would discourage chucking skills?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Ending open-ended scoring would punish Simone far more than devaluing one or two skills.

And undervaluing skills relative to their difficulty is nothing new or unusual. Values and rules have always been decided by the dual questions of "how hard is this skill" and "do we want to encourage this skill." There other skills in both the women's and men's codes that are deliberately undervalued to discourage their performance. This is nothing new.

 

[Flippin'A]

I mean, it’s not then open ended. Simone is an anomaly, but had the code been locked down we wouldn’t get to see how great she can be- and who knows if someone will come along and be the next to blow everyone else out of the water. Unless they change the open ended system it’s just straight punishing Simone’s greatness. Perhaps awarding proper values to new skills, but also with a harsh penalty for crashing would discourage chucking skills?

This is the answer in my mind. Value the skills appropriately but make sure there is no reward for performing the vault in an excessively dangerous way. Didn't they just say they were going to start devaluing prods where the butt and feet hit at the same time? Doubling fall deductions on vault seems like it would solve this issue. I think vault deductions should be higher anyway to better align the event with all the others.

Just make it so a hard vault is only worthwhile if it can be performed well and relatively safely. That way Simone gets rewarded, but questionable coaches aren't tempted to push gymnasts to chuck vaults they shouldn't be doing because putting anything other than your feet on the ground will automatically make the vault worthless.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Just make it so a hard vault is only worthwhile if it can be performed well and relatively safely. That way Simone gets rewarded, but questionable coaches aren't tempted to push gymnasts to chuck vaults they shouldn't be doing because putting anything other than your feet on the ground will automatically make the vault worthless.

This is exactly what is accomplished by undervaluing the vault.

That said, I would not be opposed -- at least at the elite level -- to making it so any vault with a fall gets an automatic zero.

 

[GymnastMomX2]

If they think the vault is too dangerous they should ban it, not give it a lower value than it deserves. They need to increase E score deductions on vault so it’s not worth doing a vault unless it can be done safely. I actually really like the idea of getting a 0 on vault if you fall in elite.