Coaches Stalder: close the legs first, or open the shoulders first?

[Geoffrey Taucer]

In an ideal stalder, should the gymnast focus first on closing the legs and second on fully extending the shoulders, or vice-versa?

I've heard it taught both ways, and usually heard girls coaches saying to start by opening the shoulders and boys coaches say to bring the legs together before hitting full shoulder extension.

It seems to me that bringing the legs together early would be less mechanically efficient (and therefore more difficult), but better for pirouettes.

Thoughts?

 

[gymdog]

On the bar I assume, not just a press on floor? I would assume the difference is coming from the relative flexibility of the athletes which changes the skill a little, lots of girls are able to pancake more which essentially allows you to complete the skill less dynamically (not that you should, but it makes it easier that for a less flexibility athlete. I imagine the boys coaches often deal with athletes who need to do the skill more dynamically and closer to somewhere in between a toe on. Also, their athletes may generally have more stable and powerful shoulders.

So that said, I am still not really sure of the question/point, clearly they need to do both. The best drill series for most kids seems to be to start with pancake rock/swings under the bar and then start to create the rise. The ultimate goal, if that's what we're talking about, should be to peak the skill at vertical so everything lines up. Opening the shoulders still in a straddle clearly is inefficient in a lot of ways, but just a developmental step. And in reality, very few athletes peak skills at vertical, especially on bars. So I understand needing different ways to describe it to kids depending in what they need to do (release? Pirouette? Kip? Another 3,6,7?) and developmental steps like telling the kids to stay straddled but press their shoulders to a handstand. But ultimately I would aim for everything to line up at vertical on a simple circling element, otherwise you are going to have body position errors.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I teach open shoulders, keeping the legs apart and hips closed for a long time prior to letting them fan the legs to H stand.