Starting a High Performance Team Track ("A" Team vs. "B" Team)

[JBS]

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[gymgal]

Are those videos a true representation of prep-op gold in Texas? While NC has some girls compete like this at the gold level (a kip is required but there are girls who will take the lower start value), most are doing much higher level routines with much better form and rhythm.

Isn't texas going to follow the new ex-cel rules? If so, then you will have the ability to train Platinum, which can do giants. But I think I understand what you are saying. The would-be B-teamers could compete well in the JO program, just at a different rate and maybe presentation level than your A-teamers.

I personally think you will have a hard transition with some families and they may leave the program but from that point on, any new comers will just accept your JO program as it is - 2 levels: accelerated and regular track.

 

[gymdog]

It sounds like you've made your decision about what the only thing that will work for your team is. I'm not sure if there are specific questions you would like the opinions of other coaches about? If you just want general opinions about what you're considering, I believe it will create a lot of drama (even relative to the fact that just about anything creates drama), but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't "work" for other gyms (judging by the goals they want to accomplish). The question is whether you believe the end will justify the means, and that's the question you're going to have to answer for yourself based on your overall goals and philosophies. If truthfully you are telling me you only want to see kids succeed for themselves, then I would think this is potentially not the way you want to go. But if you want to see kids have some opportunities, and give up some personal success for some external success (i.e. have winners, but possibly miss out on some kids who were awkward 8 year olds but successful 16 year olds) then it might be the way to go. I'm not going to judge either way, because my belief is every gym can't be everything to everyone.

If you want my own opinion about whether or not I'd work at your gym under this system, it's too variable to give a solid answer, but probably not, solely based on my tendency to believe a lot of kids could be good that I see a lot of other coaches write off. I go to the gym every day and literally experience anger as I see some kids languishing in compulsory groups they are way too advanced for because someone decided they weren't "flexible" - well guess what, they're flexible enough. On the other hand I do accept as fact that some kids won't make it out of level 5, so I can't automatically question your judgement when it might very well be about the same as my own.

If your goal is to help raise children who support and celebrate everyone, accept success graciously, help others, and any other non-technical accomplishment - then sit down and decide if your plan achieves these goals. If you want winners, sit down and decide if your plan achieves these goals. If you want something else...do the same. I don't think any of us can answer that, again too variable. For myself, I would weigh that in years of following gymnastics closely, I would say in my experience the reaction to such systems is overwhelmingly negative with fewer positive responses. This would dissaude me almost off the bat. But, all gyms are different and the variables change the outcome.

 

[gymdog]

Are those videos a true representation of prep-op gold in Texas? While NC has some girls compete like this at the gold level (a kip is required but there are girls who will take the lower start value), most are doing much higher level routines with much better form and rhythm.

Isn't texas going to follow the new ex-cel rules? If so, then you will have the ability to train Platinum, which can do giants. But I think I understand what you are saying. The would-be B-teamers could compete well in the JO program, just at a different rate and maybe presentation level than your A-teamers.

I personally think you will have a hard transition with some families and they may leave the program but from that point on, any new comers will just accept your JO program as it is - 2 levels: accelerated and regular track.

Yes, in my state even though Prep-Op is pretty new, it's totally different already than what has been described. I do not coach in this system, but even so, I have noticed many good routines with level 7 and 8 level skills. Competitive fairly quickly when introduced in our state - it was the answer to many of these dilemmas for many gyms. It is great for girls who want to do high school gymnastics, which we still have in our state.

I do not know what state you are from, Texas? (Basing that off the quoted post, no idea) I would have assumed there are rec leagues in TX that are quite competitive, if not too bad, because if it could succeed in my state to this extent I would think in TX that should be the case 10 times over. Someone should really do something about that anyway.

 

[JBS]

It sounds like you've made your decision about what the only thing that will work for your team is. I'm not sure if there are specific questions you would like the opinions of other coaches about? If you just want general opinions about what you're considering, I believe it will create a lot of drama (even relative to the fact that just about anything creates drama), but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't "work" for other gyms (judging by the goals they want to accomplish). The question is whether you believe the end will justify the means, and that's the question you're going to have to answer for yourself based on your overall goals and philosophies. If truthfully you are telling me you only want to see kids succeed for themselves, then I would think this is potentially not the way you want to go. But if you want to see kids have some opportunities, and give up some personal success for some external success (i.e. have winners, but possibly miss out on some kids who were awkward 8 year olds but successful 16 year olds) then it might be the way to go. I'm not going to judge either way, because my belief is every gym can't be everything to everyone.

If you want my own opinion about whether or not I'd work at your gym under this system, it's too variable to give a solid answer, but probably not, solely based on my tendency to believe a lot of kids could be good that I see a lot of other coaches write off. I go to the gym every day and literally experience anger as I see some kids languishing in compulsory groups they are way too advanced for because someone decided they weren't "flexible" - well guess what, they're flexible enough. On the other hand I do accept as fact that some kids won't make it out of level 5, so I can't automatically question your judgement when it might very well be about the same as my own.

If your goal is to help raise children who support and celebrate everyone, accept success graciously, help others, and any other non-technical accomplishment - then sit down and decide if your plan achieves these goals. If you want winners, sit down and decide if your plan achieves these goals. If you want something else...do the same. I don't think any of us can answer that, again too variable. For myself, I would weigh that in years of following gymnastics closely, I would say in my experience the reaction to such systems is overwhelmingly negative with fewer positive responses. This would dissaude me almost off the bat. But, all gyms are different and the variables change the outcome.

The questions I asked were in the first post...

1. What are the differences in the two tracks? (Age, hours, body type, commitment level, tops, etc.)
2. Does having two tracks cause issues in the gym or does everyone understand why it is done that way?

I'm sure we're on about the same page gymdog. It's taken me a long time to even consider a system such as this. As you say...there are many variables.

 

[JBS]

Are those videos a true representation of prep-op gold in Texas? While NC has some girls compete like this at the gold level (a kip is required but there are girls who will take the lower start value), most are doing much higher level routines with much better form and rhythm.

Isn't texas going to follow the new ex-cel rules? If so, then you will have the ability to train Platinum, which can do giants. But I think I understand what you are saying. The would-be B-teamers could compete well in the JO program, just at a different rate and maybe presentation level than your A-teamers.

I personally think you will have a hard transition with some families and they may leave the program but from that point on, any new comers will just accept your JO program as it is - 2 levels: accelerated and regular track.

No...Wisconsin...I am from Wisconsin...these videos are true to Wisconsin Prep-op (Xcel) at the current time. The first video is gold...the second video is not. Wisconsin does not have Platinum at the current time. Yes...Wisconsin will adopt full Xcel as it is a national program...but that will not create an immediate change. I would expect the program to take 5 more years to really develop in the state.

 

[gymdog]

I'm sure we're on about the same page gymdog. It's taken me a long time to even consider a system such as this. As you say...there are many variables.

Yes, I suspect we are. Of course, it is possible for it to work well. After all, many gyms essentially do the same thing with a JO track and Prep op track...with minimal drama. But I would hesitate to do this because I think attending the same meets and such would make this much more difficult to negotiate, especially at the compulsory levels. Basically, first I would try other things. I can relate to the pressures of a large gym. Sometimes you have to do something. There are always trade-offs.

Perhaps think about implementing this with optionals (or L6+) first. By then most people have a much more realistic sense of their commitment level vs the desire to try other things, and their ability level. Now you may even be able to do it "optionally" by just creating different practice schedules, so that basically if you want to do soccer and gymnastics, okay, but you have to be in the lower commitment level group. Now that would create the least drama assuming there is quality coaching (and I know you can provide this). Of course, if very few people would sort themselves into that group optionally, then it won't work out, and then you'd have to make the call. But I think at these levels it could be done with minimal fuss through simple skills testing: ability to do x strength things (decide by what the top half of the total group is doing), and x certain skills (would have to allow for level/experience differences). When the kids get the skills...they can move into the other group. If it's just totally clear then it's more like level move ups (which have their own drama but no one expects these to be avoided anyway). Just like we say if they have the skills they can compete the level, if they have the skills they can be the group. Personally I would not consider age...it is a simple matter of skills/strength. If you test 6/7s and 8s, then even allowing for level and experience differences, based on potential and ability you know some of the 6s are going to be better than the 7s. If they are already level 9 or 10 then presumably they are in the A group by default...