The dreaded mill circle

[Ingymmom]

I would LOVE if DD could skip level 4. I hate watching compulsary meets. I'm sure it's different when it's your own child, but they are just torture. Her gym didn't compete level 4 for many years and just recently started, but some talented kids do skip right to level 5.

I hear ya... I am not a big compulsory fan either.... the only part that is remotely fun and exciting is watching your child learn, compete and have fun - even if it is at the compulsory level. I think the "skip" from L4 to L5 is usually more related to coaching or gym policies rather than talent - at least at that level.

With your and your husbands knowledge of the sport I have no doubt that if this is what your child continues to want you will do it the right way. For some children L4 is fine, and even necessary. i was speaking to your situation individually. Why waste a whole extra year on L4? Makes no sense.... ok well being that she is only 3 hee hee, I guess the true decision will come much later

 

[MdGymMom01]

Not worthless at all. This is virtually the only skill to introduce alternate grip, requires them to push up off the bar, stop themselves, stay tight through the knees. If it were worthless then it would be easy for most. It's not that hard but there's a learning curve and I've seen it taught in ineffective ways, that is, barely taught and just having the kids attempt it.

My thoughts exactly!!! The mill circle teaches a lot of control and there is a lot of technique that it entails that young gymnasts need to learn. And this brings back up the whole argument over "skipping levels" and scoring out of levels. I think it was Shawn that she was thrilled that her dd got to skip learning this skill because it can be so difficult and frustrating to learn. What????? Well, isn't this skill necessary to learn because it teaches you basic grip changes and things you will need in other skills just like the other posters said?? I mean my dd hates multiplication but I am not having her "skip it" just because it is frustrating to learn!! LOL Just my .02!!!

 

[Ingymmom]

My thoughts exactly!!! The mill circle teaches a lot of control and there is a lot of technique that it entails that young gymnasts need to learn. And this brings back up the whole argument over "skipping levels" and scoring out of levels. I think it was Shawn that she was thrilled that her dd got to skip learning this skill because it can be so difficult and frustrating to learn. What????? Well, isn't this skill necessary to learn because it teaches you basic grip changes and things you will need in other skills just like the other posters said?? I mean my dd hates multiplication but I am not having her "skip it" just because it is frustrating to learn!! LOL Just my .02!!!

There is no such thing as "skipping" L4. It is not a required level to compete. You don't need to "score out" of L4 to compete L5. Some clubs start at Level 3, 4 etc. and some start at L5. Starting at L5 and not learning the mill circle will not hinder a gymnast in anyway. Believe me, if they want to learn the mill circle for fun they will easily be able to teach themselves later on... Bottom line here, the mill circle is not a necessary skill to progress to higher bar skills.

 

[MdGymMom01]

I understand what you are saying Ingymmom, but isn't it better to have more of a foundation of all the skills even if they are not "needed" in certain routines? I don't know...maybe I am more of a compulsory type of person that is used to "doing everything by the book" so to speak!!! I mean, I guess whatever way you want to progress is up to the individual.

 

[Ingymmom]

You are so correct about a strong foundation MdGymMom01... very important to the sport in the near and long term. However, the mill circle is just not one of the skill necessary to build that foundation.

 

[bogwoppit]

Even though I am not from the US I have to weigh in on this one....

We do not use the mill circle or front hip circle here ever!!!! It doesn't occur in any routine I have ever seen here and is in none of the developmental programmes. Our girls still manage to get their kips and work bars well.

In fact I am a little paranoid about sending my DD's to IGC as they do not have these skills and I would hate for them to be stuck in lower groups to work on them.

We do not have compulsory levels here, our DD's train in a club until the age of 8/9 when they are old enough to compete provincially. They would begin at the level appropriate for the skills they have. That level could be equivalent to L4 or it could be equivalent to level 7/8, all depends on the child.

The USAG system is designed, I am sure, to make running competitions and clubs easier. But, it does not guarantee progression through the levels any more than our system does.

I have to say if I moved to the US tomorrow I would look for a club that began competing at L5, even if it took my child longer to get there. Fortunately here with our bonus based system it is not an issue. Though as you all know our goal has never been college or Elite gym. My girls love the challenge of new skills and routines, I cannot imagine spending so long perfecting a skill that they will never need again, even if it did have slight developmental benefit.

Interesting discussion though, thank goodness we have so many interested and informed parents, you lot really make this board tick.

 

[gymdog]

Even it is (and I don't agree that it is) a good skill to train for progression, too much time should not be wasted on the skill if a child or coach wishes to pursue higher levels. I still think that learning a kip is more beneficial. And still say a child should not be held back from L5 simply because they can't master the mill circle. More time should also be spent on strength and flexibility.

Every event has to have progressions. Mill circle should not be that hard if you are working strength and flex. This is an achievable skill and there is value in it for girls who aren't ready to work on kip. Every bar skill they're training is helping them develop grip strength, bar "endurance," etc. I don't recall a mill circle being that traumatic for me to learn nor do I think it was a waste of time in the grand scheme of gymnastics. Was it an essential skill for me as an optional, no, but neither really was a back walkover or backward roll. That doesn't mean I don't teach those.

It's not like the vast majority of compulsories are going to make it to optionals. We need to have achievable skills in the meantime and every appropriate gymnastics skill provides a "base" where the gymnast is learning body awareness in various positions and "shapes." I teach to what is achievable for the level the girls are at in that point in time. Mill circle should be easier than kip if it is done correctly in my opinion. I don't just work kips with them all the time because I don't think that's the most optimal way for them to gain the full base they need to expand their skills. Just because a mill circle is not a kip doesn't make it inherently worthless. I'm sure you can design a program without it, but you can do things a lot of ways, evidenced by the millions of different gym procedures out there. It still doesn't make it inherently worthless such that you can't design a good program WITH it.

Myths About USA Gymnastics Level 4 Gymnasts

Not Originally Designed for Competition
Level 4 is the first official level of compulsory competition in the USA Gymnastics competitive system. The Level 4 vault and bars, beam and floor routines are substantially similar to the routines in the previous 8-year compulsory cycle, which ended in 2005. During that cycle, Level 4 was upgraded to official competition status and gymnasts were allowed to enter official USAG competitions up to the State Championships. But the routines and especially the vault were originally designed simply as training devices, not for competition.

The Level 4 Vault Mat
This is most obvious with the Level 4 vault – a handspring onto big stack of mats. In order to add this “vaultâ€￾ into regular competitions, a new piece equipment had to be designed and provided at competitions completely separate from the normal vault horse/table. And unlike any vault at any other level, gymnasts do not land on their feet in the Level 4 vault requiring a whole new approach to judging the vault.

You Don’t Have to Compete Level 4
Another common misconception is that gymnasts are required to compete Level 4 before they can compete in Level 5. There is no Level 4 competitive requirement before you compete in Level 5. The only requirement for Level 5 is that gymnasts must pass a skill evaluation from a skill evaluator with a score of at least 75%. You don’t have to compete Level 4! It is not required!

Level 4 Skills are Almost Never Used at Higher Levels of Competition
Level 4 skills, especially the bar skills are almost never used at the higher optional levels of competition. There are 12 skills in the Level 4 bar routine and none of them are ever used in optional bar routines, except for the casts. On beam and floor, the situation is somewhat better. About half of the skills are direct progressions to more difficult skills that may be used later, but that also means that half of them are not.

The Majority of Level 4 Skills Lead Nowhere
Since the vault, all of the bars skills and about half of the beam and floor skills are not used later at the higher levels of competition, it is obvious that most Level 4 skills are not used ever again in competition.

Level 4 Has Been Watered Down
During the previous 8-year compulsory cycle, Level 4 gymnasts were allowed to attempt to compete a kip on bars. Starting this year, you must be a Level 5 gymnast to do a kip in competition. Level 4 gymnasts no longer need to hit a real cross handstand in the beam routine, only a ¾ handstand. The handstand hold time requirement on the beam dismount is also less than in the last compulsory cycle. In short, USA Gymnastics has made the Level 4 routines easier.

Why?
By now, you must wonder why USA Gymnastics has made all these Level 4 changes. The answer is quite simple and even justifiable. They are trying to make the sport more available to more gymnasts. By lowering the entrance level to competition, more gymnasts may participate in the USA Gymnastics competitive system. This is not necessarily a bad thing for the sport. It increases the financial base of USA Gymnastics and the number of gymnasts competing by a very significant percentage. Some of those gymnasts may eventually rise to the top of the sport.

What Does It All Mean?
But parents and gymnasts should know that there are other paths to becoming a high level gymnast other than competing at Level 4. In fact, most of the gymnasts you see on TV were probably not ever Level 4 gymnasts. If it is your goal to become a high level optional or Elite gymnast, then you should be aware of the other paths that are more likely to make that happen.

Count Out the Years
Really good gyms and training programs create high level optional and Elite gymnasts in 3 – 5 years of daily training. That is fewer years than it would take to move from Level 4 to Level 10 (at one level per year) and they are working on harder skills sooner in their career (which is usually a good thing). For gymnasts on the Level 10/Elite track competing at Level 4 may be a waste of a year of their gymnastics career.

Special Elite Strength and Skill Development Programs Available
Elite and level 10 gymnasts often use programs like the USA Gymnastics TOP program and the USAIGC (United States Association of Independent Gymnastic Clubs) STEP program and competitions or their own version of these types of programs. The TOP and STEP programs both concentrate first on building strength and flexibility and then the teaching of high level optional skill progressions.

TOP and STEP Programs Work for All Gymnasts
The truth is that these type programs that build gymnastics strength and flexibility and work on high level skills and their progressions are really the best training system for all types and levels of gymnasts. It is, however, possible to participate in these programs and compete at a compulsory level to gain competition experience. But by far, it is more important for a gymnast’s career to develop strength, flexibility and begin to train on the appropriate higher-level skill progressions.

Well, so that person really hates L4. I don't really know what to say. Again, not everyone is going to magically skip right to L10, but okay. I mean you could pretty much make this point for a lot of L5 and 6 as well. Don't know what "TOP" has to do with 4 and I'd never even heard of "STEP" before. As far as "really good gyms creating elites and L10s in 3-5 years of daily training" - good for them? That's a really unrealistic and weird statement to me. For SOME and VERY FEW girls. I know plenty of L10s, some who are quite good and have been very successful in high level competition, that took well more than 3-5 years to get there and weren't worse off for it. There are a lot of over-generalizations in this article. I will quote a very wise optional parent who has finally made it over here, maybe he'll pop in, "gymnastics is a marathon, not a sprint." I can't really see that learning a mill circle before competing L5 is not likely to have a measurable negative effect on a gymnast with elite potential.

 

[CoachKat]

We compete from level 2 and up and I really don't like this whole discussion. Its like your all saying that only higher level gymnasts are worth anything. And the girls get so much confidence and strength just from doing any gymnastics it doesn't matter the level. I may not love every skill the compulsary routines have to do doesn't mean they are all worthless. These lower skills worthless or not give younger and less advanced gymnasts a chance to at least enjoy competing in gymnastics and if you ask me that is what it is all about. Is teaching kids how great this sport can be and how much fun. Just my 2 cents.

 

[bogwoppit]

We compete from level 2 and up and I really don't like this whole discussion. Its like your all saying that only higher level gymnasts are worth anything. And the girls get so much confidence and strength just from doing any gymnastics it doesn't matter the level. I may not love every skill the compulsary routines have to do doesn't mean they are all worthless. These lower skills worthless or not give younger and less advanced gymnasts a chance to at least enjoy competing in gymnastics and if you ask me that is what it is all about. Is teaching kids how great this sport can be and how much fun. Just my 2 cents.

I know that is not what I implied, I just think the skills are not that benficial. My kids are not high level gymnasts and I think they have benefitted from a programme that is more bonus based. They can compete a pullover or they can get a 0.3 bonus for a kip at the early levels, this gives room for many gymnasts.

I would be very shocked if any of our parents thought that no one should compete levels 2-4, I imagine like me they feel those levels should be available, but they should not be compulsory like 5 & 6.

But for a very young child with obvious talent wouldn't it be better to have a system that leads them through a different style of training that leads them to the higher levels.

I am just not sure that the USAG system as it stands is the best system to serve the needs of all gymnasts. But it is the system that you all have to work with and I think that finding the right fit, in the right gym, with the right coaches is the most important thng of all.

The mill circle and front hip gircle have been at the centre of many gym discussions on this and other boards. They are controversial skills, and this discussion proves it.

Each to his own, eh???

 

[Billy]

The mill circle may be a good lead in for the front hip circle, I really don't know. My DD does need the FHC for L5 and she does it without any problem, even without having trained the mill circle. As they say, there are many roads to Oz.

 

[Ingymmom]

gymdog, I have nothing against Level 4. & John Howard has nothing against it either I am sure. He is the founder of Gymnastics Zone, author of several books, and been involved in the sport many years, and L4 has made him a ton of money. The majority of clubs in the US offer and compete L4 & has become a very successful level of JO competition. Everything he said is all very true though.

Regardless of this entire discussion, not everyone MUST compete L4 (or conquer the mill circle) in order to be a gymnast. Nor do they ever have to train the mill circle in order to reach higher level bars... making it virtually an unnecessary skill for this purpose. To each his own. I think we are still entitled to an opinion, no? :spin:

I am thrilled that there are many different programs out there so that every child that loves competing gymnastics can participate. There is something for everyone BUT, I dont agree & I would avoid a gymnastics club that repeated L4 only because a gymnast could not master L4 bars.

 

[gymdog]

Well I don't know any gyms that have girls who can do the entire L5 bar routine decently repeating L4. Not having formally learned a mill circle =/= unable to do one. To be honest this skill is just not that hard. If the gymnast truly could not learn it in a year (I'm not talking about messing up, like doing it twice in a row, but being unable to complete it. Everyone is going to mess up on any skill at that level in any competition) I would be surprised if they could put the whole L5 bar routine together. I'm sure there are exceptions, but if you want a general rule, no, the girls I have that can't complete the mill circle are generally nowhere near glide kip either. I had a mill circle before I even moved into the USAG level system. I would imagine most of the people we're talking about who could do the L5 bar routine could more or less do the L4 one as well.

Obviously everyone doesn't have to compete L4 but I'm not sure what the point is. I know a lot of high level gymnasts who did do L4. The most you can say from what I can see is that it doesn't matter either way, not that the skill is worthless. At some point you have to teach them something. I don't know what point people are trying to make because we are talking about a child on preteam who can't compete for a long time. Learning a mill circle is not going to be a problem.

The original comment that I took issue with is that a mill circle is "worthless." If there were no benefits at all to mastering the mill circle, it probably wouldn't have survived the last cycle...by the way, I know a lot of program that don't compete 4 and teach the mill circle at some point. Clearly a lot of coaches see a benefit to at least introducing this skill as a way to build a base on bars. If you want, think of it as a drill. I do lots of things on bars that are leading "nowhere" with that level, but it's to build strength, flex and awareness without doing the same thing 370000 times. A skin the cat might be worthless, but I still have them do it as part of bar workout at the early levels because it's something they can do that builds some strength and flex. I think mill circle is in L3 as well but I have never taught competitive L3 so I don't really know the "formal" routines, just the basic skill sets. I teach mill circle in L3 anyway.

Everything he said is all very true though.

I think that's really a matter of opinion.

 

[Ingymmom]

Well I don't know any gyms that have girls who can do the entire L5 bar routine decently repeating L4. Not having formally learned a mill circle =/= unable to do one. To be honest this skill is just not that hard. If the gymnast truly could not learn it in a year (I'm not talking about messing up, like doing it twice in a row, but being unable to complete it. Everyone is going to mess up on any skill at that level in any competition) I would be surprised if they could put the whole L5 bar routine together. I'm sure there are exceptions, but if you want a general rule, no, the girls I have that can't complete the mill circle are generally nowhere near glide kip either. I had a mill circle before I even moved into the USAG level system. I would imagine most of the people we're talking about who could do the L5 bar routine could more or less do the L4 one as well.

I know of many gyms that never taught a mill circle went right to training the kip, and the gymnasts had beautiful bars for their entire careers from L5 on up. Many elite level coaches (especially if they train from pre-team up) do not spend any time on skills that will not benefit a gymnast, meaning no time spent on the mill circle. It is a fact that the mill circle is not necessary - not an opinion. It is my opinion it is a worthless skill. I am sorry if it offends you, but your opinion is otherwise, so it is irrelevant. We are both entitled and have our own reasons.

Obviously everyone doesn't have to compete L4 but I'm not sure what the point is. I know a lot of high level gymnasts who did do L4. The most you can say from what I can see is that it doesn't matter either way, not that the skill is worthless. At some point you have to teach them something. I don't know what point people are trying to make because we are talking about a child on preteam who can't compete for a long time. Learning a mill circle is not going to be a problem.

Again, my point is exactly what you just said - it is not necessary. Meaning it does not matter either way. The mill circle is unnessecary to train the kip and beyond. A gymnast simply does not need it. Some girls compete L2, some level 3, some Level 4, & some Level 5. Great for all of them (as I think I already said). Some girls learn the mill circle, some don't. Both can go on to higher levels. The mill cirlce is still not not needed to do so. Clubs that train L5 on up (not the ones that do L4 for fun and not compete) but actually only train L5 will not spend a second on training the mill cirlce. It is not a progression to anything. It is an easy skill to learn if trainied properly, as you said. But, I would rather a gymnast spend more time on the kip that they will use throughout, rather than a skill they will never see again. The majority of clubs now a days train and compete L4 and most girls will spend countless amounts of hours learning the mill circle, and will still go on to compete higher levels and do wonderfully. Good for them. I really wish that more clubs would work kip drills at the same time as training the mill circle.

I don't know what point people are trying to make because we are talking about a child on preteam who can't compete for a long time. Learning a mill circle is not going to be a problem.

Apparently it is no longer about the original little sweetie gymnast mentioned anymore.

If there were no benefits at all to mastering the mill circle, it probably wouldn't have survived the last cycle...by the way, I know a lot of program that don't compete 4 and teach the mill circle at some point. Clearly a lot of coaches see a benefit to at least introducing this skill as a way to build a base on bars. If you want, think of it as a drill. I do lots of things on bars that are leading "nowhere" with that level, but it's to build strength, flex and awareness without doing the same thing 370000 times. A skin the cat might be worthless, but I still have them do it as part of bar workout at the early levels because it's something they can do that builds some strength and flex. I think mill circle is in L3 as well but I have never taught competitive L3 so I don't really know the "formal" routines, just the basic skill sets. I teach mill circle in L3 anyway.

In L4, The mill circle survived the last cycle, because it was easy. The kip did not, does that mean the kip is not necessary? As J said, L4 is more watered after this last cycle. Which is all fine and good, it leaves competition open to more I suppose.

You teach the mill circle in L3 to prepare gymnasts for the mill circle in L4 - but your club competes level 4. I wish that more clubs would do the same in L4 and start doing more kip drills in preperation for L5. Some do, but many still don't. btw, a skin the cat is not worthless imo. It is strength and flexibility - more time should be spent on flex and strength as well.

 

[gymkat]

Hmm, I competed L4 and spent the entire season attempting to learn mill circles, and I never made it around without hooking my knee and popping up that way, and I also cheated by switching my hands to regular grip instead of shifting. I still can't make a mill circle without hooking. I made it to L5, did FHCs to my ribs the whole year, and then made it to L6, where I suddenly did much better and could do clear hips and baby giants pretty easily.

I agree with INgymmom-- I would much rather spend time at a young age working on basic body shapes, casts, perfect back hip circles, teaching a static tap, multiple glide swings, and introducing basic swinging.

Finally, I would like to observe that there is a huge time gap between learning a mill circle and learning a front giant, and so the benefit of learning one skill in reverse grip is lessened. Also, I don't ever teach mill circles with a thumb wrap (most little kids' hands aren't big enough), and almost everyone who does any form of a front giant drill at my gym wraps. While this isn't a huge difference, it certainly feels different. Also, I have never noticed a difference in learning front giants between kids who learned mill circles and kids who didn't. My teammates who jumped straight to L5 figured out how to shift their wrists just as quickly as the rest of us did.

 

[gymdog]

I know of many gyms that never taught a mill circle went right to training the kip, and the gymnasts had beautiful bars for their entire careers from L5 on up. Many elite level coaches (especially if they train from pre-team up) do not spend any time on skills that will not benefit a gymnast, meaning no time spent on the mill circle. It is a fact that the mill circle is not necessary - not an opinion. It is my opinion it is a worthless skill. I am sorry if it offends you, but your opinion is otherwise, so it is irrelevant. We are both entitled and have our own reasons.

Most elite coaches don't teach L3 where I'm at, so I agree they don't spend much time on the mill circle or any other L3 or 4 skills. I don't know why you would think it offends me. I just don't agree or see exactly why the skill is being deemed completely "worthless." I don't understand why people would come in a thread started by someone excited their dd was working on something for the first time, and then say the skill is just useless and imply that good gyms and elite programs don't teach this. I think it's great this little girl is working on her mill circle and I'm sure she'll have it down like a pro by L4. It sounds like she is having fun learning it too which is great.

But, I would rather a gymnast spend more time on the kip that they will use throughout, rather than a skill they will never see again. The majority of clubs now a days train and compete L4 and most girls will spend countless amounts of hours learning the mill circle, and will still go on to compete higher levels and do wonderfully. Good for them. I really wish that more clubs would work kip drills at the same time as training the mill circle.

Do a lot of gyms not? That's not my experience. I work kip drills when the girls can do a couple pullups and ~10 leg lifts. And probably 3-5 decent glide swings with a stretch on the front swing, not just whacking their legs together. Before that I usually don't have much success at formal kip drills, although I have a couple shaping things I do with L2+ and of course the glide swings which we require competence on (increasing numbers) to pass L1 onwards.

In L4, The mill circle survived the last cycle, because it was easy. The kip did not, does that mean the kip is not necessary? As J said, L4 is more watered after this last cycle. Which is all fine and good, it leaves competition open to more I suppose.

I don't mind the glide swing that much anymore because I would rather see a good glide swing than a bad glide swing cut off in an attempted kip, which having sat through many hours of L4 sectionals, I have definitely seen. I was so-so on the just glide swing idea at first, but I've warmed up to it because I've seen a lot more focus on getting that part of the skill really swinging and stretched out. It's tempting to focus a lot on "just get over the bar however you can" when they're *thisclose* but having a good glide swing be second nature is really good.

You teach the mill circle in L3 to prepare gymnasts for the mill circle in L4 - but your club competes level 4. I wish that more clubs would do the same in L4 and start doing more kip drills in preperation for L5. Some do, but many still don't. btw, a skin the cat is not worthless imo. It is strength and flexibility - more time should be spent on flex and strength as well.

I don't see a fundamental difference between skin the cat and mill circle though. You could never learn skin the cat and do just fine if you had the skills. I like skin the cat for the same reason I like mill circle, because its one skill the girls can do and because they need to be able to do a variety of movements in order to learn harder movements. All gymnastics is a bunch of different movements. The more movements they can competently do, the better in my opinion. I coach a lot of beam and I do all sorts of odd stuff that's technically going nowhere on there to get them in different positions doing the same thing. A mill circle is forward circle in different positions. Personally I don't think of it as very close to the FHC so I don't care much about it in that respect, although I guess it gets them going forward. I just think of it as another type of circle altogether I guess. FHC I like for different reasons, the sustained pike and shoulder "sandwich" at the end of it when done correctly for one. End of a correct kip should be kind of similar.

And when done correctly, it does make them push their elbows forward. I work on the end part a lot and I like that it makes them really shift their wrists and push forward and up. No hand switching, not the first time, any time after, not ever. That's a really hard habit to break them of so it can never happen as far as I'm concerned. Also lets me eradicate looseness where it rears its head real easy because looseness becomes very obvious. I don't even let anyone go forward if they don't have their legs straight and it makes me want to cry when I see kids doing it with their leg practically already hooked at the start and then just falling straight down. I really like the leg cut over they have now too, that's a good weight transfer exercise.

I guess it must depend regionally on what gyms do in L4. Most of the gyms I have been at are doing kip drills in L4. Most of the 4s at the gym I went to can kip or are close, certainly at least drilling it...kip was always "optional," when I did L4 I was the only one in my group who competed it, although I only did two L4 meets anyway. I'm like a huge fan of circuits so I work a lot of different exercises in wherever possible. Depends on the stuff I have available though.

so, what I like about mill circle:
1. push elbows forward. even if we didn't have mill circle I'd be making them hold pike (front support and I pull their feet forward so they have to push hard through their arms to stay straight) in the other grip anyway. I really think you need to work that early and often for the wrist flex and strength. It's too bad they can't have an alternate grip skill in the other levels but honestly it just doesn't fit in the routine. It can get neglected if you're not careful to work it in but they really need to get familiar with it.
2. wrist shift - good either way. Wrist shifting is our friend.
3. requires tight body and core strength on the way up
4. makes them get comfortable with aiming "out" rather than just crunching in close to the bar which is the natural inclination of many. Positioning and head movement is important too here.
5. control - have to push up and out to stop, rather than falling forward at the end.

Also the confidence of gaining another skill. You should have seen one of my girls face after she got it for the first time (last L3 skill she needed). She was so happy. When they aren't ready for kip on their own, it's nice to have something else they can have the experience of being really close on their own and finally getting it.

 

[ellabella]

Wow! I didn't mean to start such a debate.

I'll keep you guys posted on how she does with this skill.

On another note I hope DD does skip level 4 because the coach for that level is always yelling at the kids. I don't take my kid to the gym to be yelled at. The level 5 coach is different. Or better yet maybe she'll be fired before DD makes it that far.

 

[Ingymmom]

I don't know why you would think it offends me. I just don't agree or see exactly why the skill is being deemed completely "worthless."

Because you said you took issue with this comment, I assumed apparently mistakenly that you were offended by it. I get that you don't agree - it was my opinion, not yours

don't understand why people would come in a thread started by someone excited their dd was working on something for the first time, and then say the skill is just useless and imply that good gyms and elite programs don't teach this. I think it's great this little girl is working on her mill circle and I'm sure she'll have it down like a pro by L4. It sounds like she is having fun learning it too which is great.

as i said many many times, I agree she is having fun. I shared my opinion, what is the big deal - it makes absolutely no difference what I say... it is what you feel that should matter to you

Do a lot of gyms not? That's not my experience. I work kip drills when the girls can do a couple pullups and ~10 leg lifts. And probably 3-5 decent glide swings with a stretch on the front swing, not just whacking their legs together. Before that I usually don't have much success at formal kip drills, although I have a couple shaping things I do with L2+ and of course the glide swings which we require competence on (increasing numbers) to pass L1 onwards.

I think that is fabulous!

I don't see a fundamental difference between skin the cat and mill circle though. You could never learn skin the cat and do just fine if you had the skills.

I am confused as to how a skin the cat and a mill circle are similar...

Also the confidence of gaining another skill. You should have seen one of my girls face after she got it for the first time (last L3 skill she needed). She was so happy. When they aren't ready for kip on their own, it's nice to have something else they can have the experience of being really close on their own and finally getting it.

This is a very lovely experience that you shared, and gymdog, I would love it if our L4 coach was a passionate as you are about coaching. I think its simply wonderful - sounds corny I know, but I just wanted to say it.

note *our current gym does compete L4, and all of the girls still complain about the dreaded mill circle... ha ha!

 

[ginnymac]

Ingymom...I *think* that the comparison between skin-the-cat and mill circle is that both skills don't necessarily lead to a higher level skill, but that there are beneficial aspects of learning both.

 

[Ingymmom]

Ingymom...I *think* that the comparison between skin-the-cat and mill circle is that both skills don't necessarily lead to a higher level skill, but that there are beneficial aspects of learning both.

ah, that makes sense as to the point that was being made... thanks

in that case, our L10's/pre-elites still use skin the cats for strength/flex. It does lead to something... it leads to srength and flexibility - which a gymnast will always need. The 2 really can't be compared IMO. One can be used always, and the other, well never again

 

[gymdog]

I guess, as optionals we did leg lifts all the way through and then back from a dead hang (pretty much a lot harder than the version of skin the cat I teach although I bet some of the strongest small ones could do it) but by that token you could say mill circle is a really early intro to other reverse grip skills. I mean most gyms do continue to work on reverse grip in various forms. I actually don't happen to think that it's some kind of "front giant drill" or something though because quite frankly it's really not, just a really early version of an undergrip skill. I think it can just stand on its own as a way to introduce an alternate grip circling skill because I do think it is generally beneficial for many gymnasts (many of whom are somewhat lacking in natural one or the other by nature of L3 and 4 programs) in terms of fully developing wrist and arm flexibility/strength. There have to be trade offs in the compulsory routines. The L3 dismount is harder than the L4 dismount, but they obviously wanted the L4 dismount to be connected to the BHC, which makes sense to me. It would be great if levels 5, 6, and 7 had skills in an alternate grip that lended themselves well to those levels and routines but those just don't seem to exist.

I think it's still obviously important to work on everything in an alternate grip to increase flexibility and strength, and there are a lot of ways to do that. But the USAG compulsory routines are designed to get "us" all thinking about what will be optimal for MOST beginning gymnasts to be introduced to (many will never make it past L4, less out of 5, you catch my drift). And I think for most beginning gymnasts, USAG is right that a mill circle is a good introduction to certain bar principles. For a lot of the less confident and "daredevil" types, it's a big thing for them to get comfortable going around the bar a "different" way. I used to think the mill circle was fairly superfluous until I started teaching lots of L3s and 4s who are NOT team tracked (started coaching classes with well, low expectations + pre-team, and now I teach all levels and many in the middle, like intermediate/advanced mixed with some team track and some completely preteam). However I've only coached places that competed L4 so we've introduced the mill circle at all tracks and ages when the gymnast had a pretty solid BHC, usually they're pretty psyched by it to be honest, it's "cool" or whatever.

I used to have more trouble relating to this because I used to perceive a lot of skills as being a LOT easier than they generally are due my own experience. I now place a lot more inherent value on a lot of things. Believe me, I never thought I'd see the day where I thought of pullover and BHC as "big" skills either but so it goes. You have to consider the difference between "class good" and "team good." There are "D" and "E" skills at every level if you catch my drift. There is a definite learning curve to the mill circle, but if nothing else, the alternate grip breaks a lot of them out of their comfort zone and breaks some of the bad habits of "unfamiliar feeling in gymnastics"="duck head, bend limbs, pull in close to bar and hope for best." It's one part of the picture. No one is going to self destruct without it, but personally I fall on the side of "why not intro it somewhere along the line" because it's interesting for them to work on the alternate grip and just have a different skill to accomplish. I certainly wouldn't advocate holding them back if they're not perfect on it but have the L5 bar routine, but I'm not a fan of the whole compulsory Olympic culture either. It's interesting because even though we can say L4 has been watered down, we expect a much greater quality of gymnastics from L4s overall. I think a lot of people would be kinda horrified by the L4 routines I got 1st AA with at the first meet I did. I was better than everyone else apparently, but compared to the 4s at the same gym now, I would be at the bottom of the pack. Just totally lacked the polish you see today and no one cared.

But I don't design the USAG routines, I'm just the minion so I don't have great personal investment in any one decision. Frankly I don't really care what they do within reason, but I find the routines more or less reasonable given what they're tasked with. Also I don't really question it because despite very small skill changes they've been this way for seemingly ever and I just don't...think about it. It seems to be more or less working so I conform Been drinking the kool aid too long I guess, I don't know, so unlike me. I don't really like coaching competitive that much anyway, not really my style, I'm not a very competitive person which is why I am no longer doing gymnastics and more or less loving it.