The drunken, club-footed orangutan in the room

[beamer]

While we are on the subjects of "form" and the "right rate of progression between levels", I thought I would pose my perennial question for both coaches and other parents who understand and are committed to the JO gymnastics world.

Specifically: how to balance the gymnast's need for progression and movement with the gym's need for skills perfection.

A little background: DD (10-year-old L5) moved from a more recreational-type program in our state to a highly competitive gym. We did this not so she could end up on the podium with a consistently winning team, but because a coach at her old gym was heaping regular verbal abuse upon our gymnastics-loving kid; we wanted that to stop and she didn't want to quit. So we chose the nearest program and couldn't be more satisfied.

The coaches are incredibly talented and supportive, while at the same time making their expectations understood in a firm, fair way. No yelling, no berating, no demeaning criticism.

Here's the problem. DD is form-challenged, not highly flexible (for a gymnast) and is generally a work-a-day sort of gymnast. At the old gym, she was middle of the pack. Here, she is bottom. She just completed a second year of L5 with most meet scores in the mid 33s. All the skills are there, they are just performed with bent knees, flexed toes, etc. It's death by a thousand knives. I think her coaches are considering keeping her at 5 next year (unclear as to whether this would be half year or full year).

She has all of her L6 skills except the flyaway, consistently performed well (that is to say high 8s, no 9s) on beam and bars. She is a hard worker and dedicated gymnast, a supportive teammate with a good attitude. The form is gradually -- in tiny increments -- getting better.

On the other hand, she does not seem to be able to incorporate "form" coaching suggestions into her floor routines and struggles consistently with the handspring vault (some might even say she sometimes looks like a drunken, club-footed orang when she performs it). Highest score on vault in two seasons: 8.2.

DD wants to go to L6 but says she will do another year at 5 if necessary. She loves her gym, coaches and teammates. When we bring up Prep Opt, she cries. She wants to continue in the JO stream and is enthusiastic about putting in the 12 to 15 hours per week to stay there. We all would rather that she move to L6, especially since she will probably spend two years there as well. Why spend another year at L5 for a point or two in all-around scores? Beyond that, she will be a veritable granny by the time she reaches optionals (her stated goal) if we spend another year at 5!

So how (if at all?) do we approach the gym with a solution that addresses the drunken, club-footed orang in the room to everyone's mutual satisfaction?? Any suggestions from you wise, experienced Chalk Bucket heads would be much appreciated!

 

[Esoteric]

I cannot offer a advice on how to approach the coaches, but I wonder if they incorporate dance training in the gym? If not- a ballett class at a classical ballet studio should fix form problems with a quickness. Best of luck with your dilemma!

 

[cbone]

Sorry to hijack, but I have a feeling that my meant-to-be-light-hearted descriptor is going to haunt me forever here.

To answer your question, talk to her coaches and let them know your preference and see what they think. Then move accordingly. With your daughter's drive, she'll be successful no matter which way you choose to go!

 

[wallinbl]

Repeating L4 turned DD from a form lacking middle/bottom of the pack gymnast into a gymnast with very good form and great confidence. Was it long? Sure. Was it the right choice? Absolutely. I think a repeat year was inevitable - had we moved her to L5, she would have repeated there, but it may have been hard on her confidence to have moved up earlier and not have gained the mastery she did by repeating.

Repeating isn't all bad - it worked out really well for DD.

Why spend another year at L5 for a point or two in all-around scores?

DD went from scoring 33/34 to scoring 37/38 by repeating. I'm sure there are many variables other than simply extra time (and, to be fair, we also switched gyms during that time).

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Before I answer, I want to differentiate between form and technique.

When I say "technique," I'm referring to the essential mechanical elements of the skill that allow the gymnast to perform it with maximum efficiency (such as proper set on a back tuck, proper hand position on a roundoff, etc).

When I say "form," I'm referring to the details that make it look clean (such as straight legs, pointed toes, etc). Often there's overlap between the two (especially when it comes to straight legs), but in many cases it is possible to have good technique but bad form, or vice versa.

Anyway, having made that distinction:

Technique ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS takes priority over skill progression. If the tecnique of a skill is not flawless, further progression should not be made until it is.

Form is a little more complicated. I've found there are two points in an athlete's progression where form can be fixed relatively easy: at the very beginning (when they're learning basics), and at the end (when mastery of the skill has reached the point where the gymnast can execute the skill with zero conscious effort, and can therefore focus his/her attention on details like form). It's USUALLY best to prioritize form over skill progression in basics, but there are a number of instances where I would work to develop the mastery of the skill first and then fix form. Example: the handspring front on vault. When kids are first learning this skill, I want them to do it with the knees separated (known as a cowboy tuck). This doesn't look as clean, and it gets deducted as a form error; however, it's much safer to train multiple-forward-flipping skills in this position because it means the gymnast won't smash her face on her knees if she lands wrong. Another example is the handstand on rings -- I don't really even worry about form on this at the start, I just want kids to get upside down on top of the rings. They can bend their arms to get there, they can wrap their legs around the straps, they can basically do whatever they need to in order to get themselves up at first; once they've reached a feel for the balance and a level of comfort in the handstand, THEN we work on straightening it out and cleaning up form.

 

[Danica76]

Beamer, I don't have any profound words of wisdom, but I understand your death by a thousand knives analogy. This was my DD this season (her first) - tenthed to death for form. She would stay on the beam 90% of the time but would score SO much lower than most of the other girls who had falls. My DD is of average talent, has some natural athleticism, good static flexibility but lacks active flexibility (which we all know you need for tumbling, big jumps/leaps, etc) but she LOVES gymnastics and just keeps plugging away at it. She is not naturally graceful. Form does not come easy for her at all - she really has to think about it.

She will be doing a repeat year at L4 in the fall (she is uptraining all summer and even if she gets her L5 skills, I really think she needs another year at L4, as does her HC. She barely scored over a 30 AA this past season). It's hard to be the parent of a gymnast like this. She refuses to give up and I refuse to ever give up on her and so she goes to the gym 3 days a week I would also talk with her coaches about her goals and see what they have to say. My DD is not one who gives a lot of attention to scores/placements/medals - she really just enjoys learning new skills, so scoring better would not be a motivator for her. But, time to improve form and solid basics is certainly a good reason to have my DD repeat a level and I support her HC's decision 100%.

Just my 2 cents - hope all goes well and I hope your DD continues to love gymnastics and that you all figure out a solution that everyone is happy with

 

[gymdog]

If she can do RO BHS back tuck by age 10 after only joining a quality program relatively recently, personally I wouldn't go to prep op yet. 10 is still pretty young. I have a couple kids with form issues, but I think they will be optionals if that's what they want to do. They will just never win compulsory titles.

 

[skschlag]

My son just did a 3rd year of level 5 and it has really helped a lot. He has been able to really "get" a lot of the skills that he was just doing last year, and now his form is coming with them. While it was tedious and long, it really was the best thing for him. His coach has uptrained things that were ready all season (he has most of his level 6 routines already....), but focusing on the basics for one more year really has helped!

 

[UnoMas]

My younger DD also gets "tenthed to death"...we just made the decision to move her to prep op from L4 after her second season of L4. Her highest AA was 33 something. She too can do all the skills, but form issues kill her. I'm a little sad about her not moving on to L5, and how this will affect her being able to learn new skills... but I also know how poorly she would score in 5 considering all the details that are needed in those floor and beam routines. (She also does not seem to be able to take all the form corrections and also has some physical issues that make certain foot and arm positions tricky). It's a tough decision. I know that L6 scoring can be brutal, so it is likely that your DD's scores will go down even more if she goes to 6. I guess it just depends on whether or not your DD can handle that and if your gym is willing to put her out there. In our case, we had a discussion with the coach and came to a mutual decision. I understand the reluctance to go to prep-op...we definitely see that among some girls at our gym too. However our older DD did prep-op this year and it was quite competitive. I guess it all just depends on how you look at it...
My suggestion is to just meet with the coaches and explain the situation and your concerns and your DD's desires and see what you can come up with mutually. Good luck!

 

[MaryA]

I wonder if keeping her at level 5 might mean she only will have to spend one year at level 6? Maybe talk to the coach about her attending level 6 practice one day a week, or having the opportunity to do extra uptraining, or something like that? Those form deductions ARE a lot bigger at level 6. If she can uptrain 6, work on her form issues, and have a kick-a** year at level 5, maybe she'll have a successful 1st season at level 6. Just a thought, really. Mostly, I think that you, your daughter, and her coach need to sit down and talk about her goals, the realities of the scoring at level 6, potential boredom with repeating level 5 another year, etc. and go from there. It sounds like she has a great coach and the coach has probably seen this before and will have some insight into the situation.

Sometime that form stuff just sort of clicks... you glance in the gym one day and think, "gosh, she looks a lot better!" I think sometimes that's an age/body awareness thing.

 

[gymnut1]

I think that as she has already repeated once and is 10 moving on to level 6 would be more fun for her. I would talk to her coaches and see is this is possible at some point next year even if not straight away. It sounds like she knows exactly what to expect from scores etc and it wouldn't phase her. And good luck. Let us know how you get on.

 

[beamer]

Thank you all for your thoughtful (and thought-provoking!) responses.

To be clear (and I think some people got this, a few missed it), DD would be doing a 3rd year at L5, not a second.

The form is gradually (glacially!) improving and, as noted, she has almost all her L6 skills. She has never been a podium denizen and so does not care too much about medals and trophies. No state champion here! Although a little bling might be nice for her, there is no guarantee she would be getting the great placements next year either. Truly. But I and DD have been to several of the team's level 6 meet sessions and it does look scary for the form challenged.

We want to trust this very excellent gym to make the right decision for our DD and another year could only help in the form and confidence departments. I am, however, concerned she will get bored and quit the sport that I have been hoping will keep her insulated from middle school girl drama, keep her healthy and strong, and provide an outlet for all the excess energy.

So some of this is obviously about my issues/hopes...which I do try to keep out of DD's gymnastics...with varying degrees of success.

 

[coachmolly]

It's cases like these where I think it's SO important to look at kids on a case by case basis rather than having a flat mobility score. Some kids, despite having the skills and a pretty good technical foundation, just struggle at compulsories and all of the little details. I was one of those kids. I spent 2 years at level 4 and 2 at level 5, and by the 2nd season of each I was still only scoring in the 32-33 range. Scores were tighter at that time in my state, and I still placed here and there at the meets we attended, so it wasn't terrible, and there was improvement from one year to the next (generally, particularly after leaving a gym with totally inadequate coaches for levels 4 & 5), but the improvement really wasn't anything astounding. I had the basics, just not the refinement and was also a wreck at meets.
If she has the basics down (technically correct kip, good casts/tap swings, solid ro-bhs, etc), I think it would be acceptable to ask the coaches about a move to level 6 and working her way towards optionals. Just asking for a meeting with the coaches and saying just what you said here, that you are okay with her staying at level 5, but are wondering if level 6 would be a possibility, and assure them you trust their opinion and that they have final say in what level she competes. They might be willing to offer a compromise, training with the level 6s a day or two a week, allowing her to move to level 6 mid-season once X is achieved, making her move up to level 6 conditional on getting X skill consistently, things along those lines. It will make the jump to level 6 seem more achievable for your DD, give her clear expectations, and letting her know exactly what she needs to work on. Good luck!

 

[bookworm]

If after 2 years at Level 5 she is still scoring in the 32-33 range and has form issues that even you can see, I think moving to Level 6 will be tough and as some have said, her scores will probably be even lower ( and maybe more discouraging..) . I know you're resistant to Prep Op but we have had a few local gyms who have had their Level 6 girls go into the Prep Op system for a year, working on other skills and then scoring them out of 6 the next year and putting them back in JO at Level 7. When I asked about this, one of the moms said it was because the coaches thought Level 6 was just too brutal for kids with certain form and skill issues , so this was the route they chose to try to work with the kid without totally blowing her self esteem out of the water.

 

[Quadqueen]

I like Bookworm's suggestion...I don't know if a lot of gyms keep the flexibility to do that though. I know with DD's gym, they do not "score out" and never move up mid-season, so a year at Prep-Op would get the girls at DD's gym nowhere.

 

[beamer]

Thank you coach molly; this is exactly what I was thinking.

A good compromise would be a mid-season move, but the gym only does that when there are two distinct competitive seasons (with a state meet in fall, spring). This year our state USAG only had one season, culminating in a state meet in spring. It seems like many gyms did not do those mid-year moves on account of this. No word yet on what next year will bring, but it sounds like another one-season year.

To address the technique question, I would say in her favor that she is generally doing the skills properly and is a fairly strong gymnast who picks up skills quickly and has not (yet! fingers crossed) had fear issues. It's just that once she gets skills, they are performed with the nitpick-able (just made up a word) form...a knee will be bent, legs will be noticeably separated, toes on one foot not pointed, etc. For example, backhandsprings are still performed with somewhat bent, separated legs (still, we have come a long, long way from the "frog" legs of level 4!). But the technique is there and she gets a huge rebound.

And then there is the vault. Sigh.

I don't know how long we will wait for something to click there.

 

[cbone]

Sorry to ask dumb questions, but what is Prep-Op?

 

[bookworm]

I like Bookworm's suggestion...I don't know if a lot of gyms keep the flexibility to do that though. I know with DD's gym, they do not "score out" and never move up mid-season, so a year at Prep-Op would get the girls at DD's gym nowhere.

It actually would if they were marginal compulsories...they could work on "other" stuff getting ready for level 7 and not just the dreaded compulsory routines that they were having trouble with and hopefully would have enough skill base to score out of 6 (I think it's a 31 or 32) in one meet to go Level 7 the next year. One of the gyms always had an in-house meet when they did this so the girls competed on their own familiar equipment while scoring out of 6...

 

[beamer]

Oh my.

So many good suggestions that I keep having to reply to!

Bookworm and Kate: I myself am not resistant to Prep Op. It looks like the exact solution to me! She is very interested in doing optional routines. That's PO. She likes to uptrain. That's PO. There are so many great things about the PO track for DD and our family.

The problem is that every time I (ever-so-gently) mention them (fewer hours in the gym, more time to do school activities, cool, choreographed routines, less strict judging) I get such a negative response that I try not to bring it up too much. It is her sport and if she wants to plug away forever at compulsories, I guess we should support that. But I must admit the allure of PO makes us want to force the issue sometimes!

It is possible she will come to this decision on her own (maybe after a third year at L5!). I know she could move back to JO from Prep Op, but I don't think her gym would move her into 7; there is no L6 skipping that I am aware of.

 

[Quadqueen]

It actually would if they were marginal compulsories...they could work on "other" stuff getting ready for level 7 and not just the dreaded compulsory routines that they were having trouble with and hopefully would have enough skill base to score out of 6 (I think it's a 31 or 32) in one meet to go Level 7 the next year. One of the gyms always had an in-house meet when they did this so the girls competed on their own familiar equipment while scoring out of 6...

Sorry, I meant, at our gym, we do not score out. So, a girl could go from L5 one year to Prep-op the next, but then she would do a full year of L6 before moving on to a full year of 7 (if she was able to move up from 6 in one year). The prep-op would be a nice alternative to a 3rd year of L5 in the original poster's case, but if that were to happen in our gym, you wouldn't be getting ahead, as far as "scoring out" of, and essentially "skipping" L6.