Parents Thinking of switching gyms - advice please :)

[raenndrops]

Region 8 congress was this past weekend. I am guess that's where GAgymmom got additional info. I am not sure what she means that Xcel is run by a different regulating office than USAG. Guessing the fact that they have a different committee/board to discuss rules, etc but yes, XCEL is still regulated and implemented through USAG.

Exactly… There is a National Xcel Committee (They are in Charge of Xcel)… but they are under the auspices of the USAG.

And I don't think most of the changes are that HUGE … and while we are at it, in Xcel, they are called DIVISIONS, not LEVELS.
The only change I really don't like is the downgrading of the FHS vault in Platinum. It is worth less than the same vault in L6/L7.
And (not that it affects as many people), I don't like that Silver has to be scored out of … but I hate Silver, lol.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Do you think that some of this insistence is from parents who know very little about the sport? That there is an in-house score out meet, but the parents don't realize that their girls have been taught the compulsory routines specifically for it, and that they'll never be done again. Parents who are ignorant of the process might honestly think their girls bypassed 4&5, when in reality, the parents never understood their girls learned and competed the compulsory routines.

I really do think so, but even when talking to them and trying to pinpoint what they mean, they still insist their gym "skips" compulsories. I had a discussion with a parent not long ago who insisted her dd's gym had them jump right into Lvl 7 from Gold. I asked her how and she didn't know, "they just do."

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Yep, you can do Xcel, never do a L3 JO mill circle, have your optional routine pretty much ready to go because you have been doing it in Xcel. Score out of L4 on Sat, L5 on Sunday and boom your L7, already to go because you have been doing those skills in Xcel. That is not smoke and mirror or sunshine. It actually happens.

When folks say "by pass" they mean, a kid is not spending a season or half doing L3/L4/L5. They are not doing repeat seasons in compulsories. One meet at L4 and one at L5, is not what folks consider "doing" L4 and L5, My kid did Level 4, they started training it 18 months ago officially, competed a season and did "States". That is competing L4. She will do one meet at L5 in the fall and off to six. That is not competing L5, that is a score out. They are not the same thing.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Regarding posting. If you don't want any one to challenge, comment or respond to what you post, don't post.

Public forum, anyone can comment on any post.

You could block folks, but depending on how many folks you block, you probably would miss a lot, just sayin.

 

[Mrs. Puma]

Do you think that some of this insistence is from parents who know very little about the sport? That there is an in-house score out meet, but the parents don't realize that their girls have been taught the compulsory routines specifically for it, and that they'll never be done again. Parents who are ignorant of the process might honestly think their girls bypassed 4&5, when in reality, the parents never understood their girls learned and competed the compulsory routines.

This is a good point and I'm quite sure you're right that this is the case sometimes. It is a complicated sport with lots of rules and often parents are encouraged to not be involved, so I could definitely see how they could be confused. But...I am 100% sure, heard it from the horse's mouth that this is what happens at gym-that-shall-not-be-named: Kids do Xcel. Gym has in house meet with real judges. Kids do their Xcel routines. Judges "score them out" of L4/5. They never, ever learn or perform the L4/5 routines. They start optionals. I know this is wrong, but it does happen at at least one gym in the country, so I can only assume it happens elsewhere.

 

[gymbeam]

Yes, it's really pretty easy (and common) to not actually do the score outs. I know a couple of gymnasts who never did. However, I don't know of any entire teams that moved up that way. I've only seen it happen when one individual was ready to make a jump outside the herd so they just let them move on up. In fact, it happened to my daughter when she transitioned from Xcel to JO and at the time I didn't even realize it wasn't legit. Shhhhhh...... No going back now!

 

[LindyHopper]

Gym has in house meet with real judges. Kids do their Xcel routines. Judges "score them out" of L4/5. They never, ever learn or perform the L4/5 routines.

Would be nice to know who those judges are and what they're getting out of it. Wonder if it's the same judges every year?

 

[Mrs. Puma]

Would be nice to know who those judges are and what they're getting out of it. Wonder if it's the same judges every year?

This is a very good question!

 

[GymDad9.9]

Yep, you can do Xcel, never do a L3 JO mill circle, have your optional routine pretty much ready to go because you have been doing it in Xcel. Score out of L4 on Sat, L5 on Sunday and boom your L7, already to go because you have been doing those skills in Xcel. That is not smoke and mirror or sunshine. It actually happens.

When folks say "by pass" they mean, a kid is not spending a season or half doing L3/L4/L5. They are not doing repeat seasons in compulsories. One meet at L4 and one at L5, is not what folks consider "doing" L4 and L5, My kid did Level 4, they started training it 18 months ago officially, competed a season and did "States". That is competing L4. She will do one meet at L5 in the fall and off to six. That is not competing L5, that is a score out. They are not the same thing.

Scoring out of compulsories from Excel as you describe makes me wonder whether this scenario represents a loophole of sorts that adversely impacts the JO route of Levels 3, 4, and 5 taken by most girls or does it in someway produce a lesser skilled or lesser child optional gymnast? Or neither.....

 

[Gymnasticsfun5555]

I would visit Option 2 just to get a feel for the gym. Meet the coaches and watch the training. While your daughter is still only 6, you have a chance to get her bonded and grow with girls and families in your neighbourhood. Life is easy when the location is near you because you will be driving there constantly. Plus it sounds like a great gym. Research the coaches and see if you can chat with some moms while there too. Good luck!

 

[3rd_time_around]

Scoring out of compulsories from Excel as you describe makes me wonder whether this scenario represents a loophole of sorts that adversely impacts the JO route of Levels 3, 4, and 5 taken by most girls or does it in someway produce a lesser skilled or lesser child optional gymnast? Or neither.....

Compulsories focuses on every minute detail and all the core skills and their execution. Each level builds on the previous level, building a foundation for higher level gymnastics. If the core skills are not learned correctly, it does affect most gymnasts down the line. (I didn't say ALL gymnasts.) Xcel focuses on what the gymnast is doing. They get judged on what they do. (That's the philosophy, I'm not interjecting my opinion.) I know a gymnast who's coach somehow skipped her from 4 to 7 when she was just 8 years old (because she could throw a BHS on the beam). Her parent told me that if they could do it over, she would not have let that happen, because she could tell the difference from the girls who went through compulsories. That doesn't mean that this is true for all gymnasts, but it does show that those core skills need to be there, and there's a reason for them, and a good reason why USAG requires at least a minimal training in level 4/5. As for gyms that circumvent the system with bogus score out meets (and the judges that allegedly go along with it), they are only hurting their athletes and possibly setting their gym up for loss of sanctions. I have also heard or read that an unqualified athlete in a competition can void the entire competition (or session, I can't remember which), so it's taken pretty seriously. The new meet registration system will help with a lot of that, but if people are intent on bucking the system and requirements, they will find a way.

 

[twinmomma]

Compulsories focuses on every minute detail and all the core skills and their execution. Each level builds on the previous level, building a foundation for higher level gymnastics. If the core skills are not learned correctly, it does affect most gymnasts down the line. (I didn't say ALL gymnasts.) Xcel focuses on what the gymnast is doing. They get judged on what they do. (That's the philosophy, I'm not interjecting my opinion.) I know a gymnast who's coach somehow skipped her from 4 to 7 when she was just 8 years old (because she could throw a BHS on the beam). Her parent told me that if they could do it over, she would not have let that happen, because she could tell the difference from the girls who went through compulsories. That doesn't mean that this is true for all gymnasts, but it does show that those core skills need to be there, and there's a reason for them, and a good reason why USAG requires at least a minimal training in level 4/5. As for gyms that circumvent the system with bogus score out meets (and the judges that allegedly go along with it), they are only hurting their athletes and possibly setting their gym up for loss of sanctions. I have also heard or read that an unqualified athlete in a competition can void the entire competition (or session, I can't remember which), so it's taken pretty seriously. The new meet registration system will help with a lot of that, but if people are intent on bucking the system and requirements, they will find a way.

While that may have been the stated philosophy, it absolutely was not our experience in Xcel in Region 1. Just being able to throw a skill doesn't mean you get the points. There are still judging guidelines and while there may be fewer deductions, form is absolutely important and was rewarded in the scoring.

As for the not scoring out appropriately, I can't speak to that, but it would seem to me this isn't a regional issue, and your region alone taking action isn't enough. It doesn't appear that USAG, the governing body for ALL of Xcel, needs to take this on.

 

[Mrs. Puma]

Scoring out of compulsories from Excel as you describe makes me wonder whether this scenario represents a loophole of sorts that adversely impacts the JO route of Levels 3, 4, and 5 taken by most girls or does it in someway produce a lesser skilled or lesser child optional gymnast? Or neither.....

I would assume it depends on the gym and the coaching. There are definitely Xcel programs that are very strong and would produce excellent optional athletes. I think @cadybearsmommy is at a gym like this? A BHS is a BHS whether it's in L3 or L10 or XS or XD. If it's taught correctly, good form will score well. But if gyms are treating Xcel like a lesser program and not focusing on form, that certainly would produce a lesser skilled optional gymnast.

 

[momof2gymmies]

I would assume it depends on the gym and the coaching. There are definitely Xcel programs that are very strong and would produce excellent optional athletes. I think @cadybearsmommy is at a gym like this? A BHS is a BHS whether it's in L3 or L10 or XS or XD. If it's taught correctly, good form will score well. But if gyms are treating Xcel like a lesser program and not focusing on form, that certainly would produce a lesser skilled optional gymnast.

I agree with this. Our gym has very high expectations for xcel. Most of the kids are doing the max skills for each level, and doing them well. Our coaches def focus on form, and will not let the kids move on until their form is perfected.

 

[raenndrops]

Scoring out of compulsories from Excel as you describe makes me wonder whether this scenario represents a loophole of sorts that adversely impacts the JO route of Levels 3, 4, and 5 taken by most girls or does it in someway produce a lesser skilled or lesser child optional gymnast? Or neither.....

USAG does not require a gym to compete L3. There are gyms that start their competitive team with L4.
USAG requires a 31.00 at L4 to move to L5. They require a 31.00 at L5 to move to L6/L7.
Competing Xcel, which is all optional routines, and scoring out of L4 and L5 and moving on is not a "loophole". USAG says you have to compete L4 ONCE and score at least a 31.00. THe same for L5… and L7. There are girls that score out of L7 and move to L8 or score out of L8 and move to L9 too. It is a matter of getting the girl to someplace where she can meet the requirements, but be challenged at the same time.

If a gym is scoring girls out of L4 and L5, they must believe that the gymnast is ready for JO Optionals (or they just don't like L5, so they score them out to get them into L6 where routines are optional so text errors do not exist).

 

[gymbeam]

Scoring out of compulsories from Excel as you describe makes me wonder whether this scenario represents a loophole of sorts that adversely impacts the JO route of Levels 3, 4, and 5 taken by most girls or does it in someway produce a lesser skilled or lesser child optional gymnast? Or neither.....

Yep, totally depends on the gym. At our first gym, scoring out of JO levels 4 and 5 while simultaneously competing full seasons of xcel in small, or very non-competitive meets was definitely a way for the owners to make parents feel like their kids were making huge progress and doing so well. The kids loved it because they got to claim high placements at easy meets while also claiming that they were "level 4s" or "level 5s" or even "7s" due to in house mobility meets. Problem was, it was all smoke and mirrors and no one was ever able to make higher than 7 in that gym (and it wasn't a good 7 either).

Thankfully, we saw through that after one year (with the help of chalk bucket!) and moved to a magnificent gym. They also track their JO team through xcel, but they do only bronze and silver divisions and then move into JO and do full seasons of 4 and 5 and on up. Big difference from the first gym who only did score outs to claim JO level titles but never actually did any "real" JO meets.

 

[3rd_time_around]

While that may have been the stated philosophy, it absolutely was not our experience in Xcel in Region 1. Just being able to throw a skill doesn't mean you get the points. There are still judging guidelines and while there may be fewer deductions, form is absolutely important and was rewarded in the scoring.

As for the not scoring out appropriately, I can't speak to that, but it would seem to me this isn't a regional issue, and your region alone taking action isn't enough. It doesn't appear that USAG, the governing body for ALL of Xcel, needs to take this on.

I never said any of this. I said they get judged on what they do. All judging is still done on everything, never implied or said it wasn't. And the region isn't taking action alone, there are new guidelines. Never mind, it's exhausting saying the same thing over and over and people still reading it wrong or reading into it.

 

[twinmomma]

I never said any of this. I said they get judged on what they do. All judging is still done on everything, never implied or said it wasn't. And the region isn't taking action alone, there are new guidelines. Never mind, it's exhausting saying the same thing over and over and people still reading it wrong or reading into it.

According to USAG's website, and the Xcel national committee meetings, the changes that are coming do not support what you are saying, which is why I asked you to cite it. Anything going into effect in August would likely have been socialized outside of some secret meeting that nobody really knows about.

And, you did say - "They get judged on what they do." Implying they do not get judged for how well they do it. Forgive me if I misinterpreted. What has been repeatedly said and reinforced here is that Xcel is somehow a lesser program than JO. When in reality, our experience is that Xcel athletes are as competent as the JO athletes at comparable levels (i.e. Silver vs. JO 3/4, etc...)

 

[gymbeam]

By that she meant if they forget a part of a routine or maybe don't have a hand in the precise spot then it's not noticed in xcel as it is in compulsories because the judges only judge what they see. There is no way for them to know if Susie meant to put her hand on her hip after her leap or not because the routines aren't all the same. (Lame example but I hope you get my point)

 

[twinmomma]

By that she meant if they forget a part of a routine or maybe don't have a hand in the precise spot then it's not noticed in xcel as it is in compulsories because the judges only judge what they see. There is no way for them to know if Susie meant to put her hand on her hip after her leap or not because the routines aren't all the same. (Lame example but I hope you get my point)

By that logic, then the same is true of optionals. And I can understand the concept, it's just frustrating how Xcel is constantly seen as some sort of lesser program turning out less accomplished athletes.