TOPs B camp moved discussion from TOPs camp thread

[Muddlethru]

If there are declines to go to camp, does anyone know if they go down the list to fill the spots for B camp? I know at the parents' meeting at the ranch, Gary Warren said he'll need 70 in the B team to cover all expenses (i.e., fees of national coaches, travel, room and board, etc.)

FYI: 9 yo B team cutoff was 80 and 10yo B Team cutoff was 81.

 

[PureTalent]

If there are declines to go to camp, does anyone know if they go down the list to fill the spots for B camp? I know at the parents' meeting at the ranch, Gary Warren said he'll need 70 in the B team to cover all expenses (i.e., fees of national coaches, travel, room and board, etc.)

FYI: 9 yo B team cutoff was 80 and 10yo B Team cutoff was 81.

Yes, they DO go down the list to fill the spots for B camp. Now whether the gym will tell u this or not or act like your DD truly made it, is on them. But personally, had my DD been "second fiddle" like that, I would have to decline. To me, either she made it or didn't. And to fill the spots like they do because B campers decline is sort of misleading to me. Especially if they're going to act like they made B camp when actuality they didn't.

 

[gymmomntc2e6]

Yes, they DO go down the list to fill the spots for B camp. Now whether the gym will tell u this or not or act like your DD truly made it, is on them. But personally, had my DD been "second fiddle" like that, I would have to decline. To me, either she made it or didn't. And to fill the spots like they do because B campers decline is sort of misleading to me. Especially if they're going to act like they made B camp when actuality they didn't.

i dont think I agree with that. All teams have alternates who 'didnt make the cut' so if someone has to withdraw for some reason there is backup. I would proudly send my DD. we don't know why that person cannot go. Perhaps they were injured. so if your DD was an alternate for the Olympic team & someone who 'actually made ' the team had to withdraw would you also decline on the same principle? doubtful.

 

[gymjourneymom]

i dont think I agree with that. All teams have alternates who 'didnt make the cut' so if someone has to withdraw for some reason there is backup. I would proudly send my DD. we don't know why that person cannot go. Perhaps they were injured. so if your DD was an alternate for the Olympic team & someone who 'actually made ' the team had to withdraw would you also decline on the same principle? doubtful.

Good point!

 

[MdGymMom01]

i dont think I agree with that. All teams have alternates who 'didnt make the cut' so if someone has to withdraw for some reason there is backup. I would proudly send my DD. we don't know why that person cannot go. Perhaps they were injured. so if your DD was an alternate for the Olympic team & someone who 'actually made ' the team had to withdraw would you also decline on the same principle? doubtful.

Exactly!! I would think that it would be an opportunity that anyone would be proud to be part of, whether they made the original cut-off or they were an alternate and got to be able to go.

 

[PureTalent]

i dont think I agree with that. All teams have alternates who 'didnt make the cut' so if someone has to withdraw for some reason there is backup. I would proudly send my DD. we don't know why that person cannot go. Perhaps they were injured. so if your DD was an alternate for the Olympic team & someone who 'actually made ' the team had to withdraw would you also decline on the same principle? doubtful.

Ok, so for an injury, sure I can see them declining to go. Of course a decline is in order if they are injured. I'll give you that. But most of them are not declining because of injuries, they are declining because of the cost. The decline rate because of cost isn't a low number at all. Also, my other main point was the fact that are these gyms telling the kids they are "alternates"? I sure hope so. Only because in the gyms I heard of they were trying to make them feel like they truly indeed made Camp B when they in fact did not. That's a problem I have and feel isn't right. I hope the gyms are telling these "alternates" that they're in fact "alternates" and act like they they made the B Camp. In the Olypmic example you speak of they know they are alternates. In the people I've known they weren't told that. They were asked last minute, as a fill in because of the large amount of declines, and acted like they made the B Camp. Um, yea ok. lol And sure...if they have an opportunity to go even tho they didn't truly make the cut....then wonderful for them. It's a great experience. I just hope they were told the truth, that's all I'm saying

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

i dont think I agree with that. All teams have alternates who 'didnt make the cut' so if someone has to withdraw for some reason there is backup. I would proudly send my DD. we don't know why that person cannot go. Perhaps they were injured. so if your DD was an alternate for the Olympic team & someone who 'actually made ' the team had to withdraw would you also decline on the same principle? doubtful.

Great point. As others have said, just being ASKED to go to either Camp is a great honor. I definitely wouldn't consider someone who was an alternative as being "second fiddle!" Oh my goodness... one who makes it this year, may not make it next. Does that mean the first gymnast is now considered "second fiddle?" Nope. Congrats to ALL the girls who make it to testing, as well as those finally selected to attend either camp.

 

[bogwoppit]

I know some girls who got to the B camp last year after others dropped out. They never knew why the kids dropped out and took their well earned places at B camp. All three of the girls worked incredibly hard to get to National testing, all of them do very well at meets and have all the skills they needed for testing. Sometimes testing just doesn't go well, kids have bad days at times.

But more to this just because you have a TOPs A camp kid doesn't make them the best of the best. It just makes them the best in testing at that camp of the kids who test TOPs. Many of the very best clubs, like WOGA and All Olympia do not even test TOPs. So just like in the Miss World competition, you maybe the best in the comp, but you might not be the best there is in the world.

I really think that any kid who got to testing and ends up at camp should feel as "included" as any other kid there. I would be horrified to think that some little 8 year is sent off to camp with a "just remember that you are only there because some little girls parents couldn't afford the trip". That would be so cruel and unecessary. These are very young children and the need to make a kid "know" she didn't really make is very callous. If a gym decides to keep that private, all power to them for making their gymnast feel secure, it doesn't matter how she got there.

The range of skills in the TOPs girls is huge, some really are strong L5's with some bigger skills, but others are up there with L9 skills. The coaches are well trained and know exactly how to motivate and bring on girls at all skill levels. There is no need to exclude kids. Plus the camps cannot run if there are not enough kids, I seem to remember Gary Warren saying that they need 70 kids to run the B camp, how will that work if only injured kids can be replaced?

 

[Clover]

Originally Posted by PureTalent "Also, my other main point was the fact that are these gyms telling the kids they are "alternates"? I sure hope so. Only because in the gyms I heard of they were trying to make them feel like they truly indeed made Camp B when they in fact did not. That's a problem I have and feel isn't right. I hope the gyms are telling these "alternates" that they're in fact "alternates" and act like they they made the B Camp. In the Olypmic example you speak of they know they are alternates. In the people I've known they weren't told that. They were asked last minute, as a fill in because of the large amount of declines, and acted like they made the B Camp. Um, yea ok. lol And sure...if they have an opportunity to go even tho they didn't truly make the cut....then wonderful for them. It's a great experience. I just hope they were told the truth, that's all I'm saying "


I am kind of new to all of this, but aren't all of the girls who make it to National Testing VERY talented. Isn't there usually just tenths of a point separating those who made it from those who don't (at least at the top)?

 

[flippin out]

I know some girls who got to the B camp last year after others dropped out. They never knew why the kids dropped out and took their well earned places at B camp. All three of the girls worked incredibly hard to get to National testing, all of them do very well at meets and have all the skills they needed for testing. Sometimes testing just doesn't go well, kids have bad days at times.

But more to this just because you have a TOPs A camp kid doesn't make them the best of the best. It just makes them the best in testing at that camp of the kids who test TOPs. Many of the very best clubs, like WOGA and All Olympia do not even test TOPs. So just like in the Miss World competition, you maybe the best in the comp, but you might not be the best there is in the world.

I really think that any kid who got to testing and ends up at camp should feel as "included" as any other kid there. I would be horrified to think that some little 8 year is sent off to camp with a "just remember that you are only there because some little girls parents couldn't afford the trip". That would be so cruel and unecessary. These are very young children and the need to make a kid "know" she didn't really make is very callous. If a gym decides to keep that private, all power to them for making their gymnast feel secure, it doesn't matter how she got there.

The range of skills in the TOPs girls is huge, some really are strong L5's with some bigger skills, but others are up there with L9 skills. The coaches are well trained and know exactly how to motivate and bring on girls at all skill levels. There is no need to exclude kids. Plus the camps cannot run if there are not enough kids, I seem to remember Gary Warren saying that they need 70 kids to run the B camp, how will that work if only injured kids can be replaced?

Totally agree! Most of the time these girls are so close in points! And we are talking about very young girls. Why would you think that a coach should Make sure to tell them that they really don't deserve to be there? What good would come of making sure to insult a child by telling them that 'you don't really deserve to be here and I hope that you realize that"???? I would be pissed if I heard a coach telling a kid that. Every girl invited to that camp earned their way there.

Are we to also make sure to tell a kid that "you didn't REALLY deserve that All Around title. Gymnast X is a much better gymnast than you, but she wasn't competing at this meet.....just so you realize that".

Or maybe we should make sure to all let any girl who is an alternate to Regionals or Nationals know that they should not be there either. Maybe they could wear a different leo than everyone else so that everyone else will know 'who didn't deserve to be there' as well

 

[MdGymMom01]

Also, my other main point was the fact that are these gyms telling the kids they are "alternates"? I sure hope so. Only because in the gyms I heard of they were trying to make them feel like they truly indeed made Camp B when they in fact did not. That's a problem I have and feel isn't right. I hope the gyms are telling these "alternates" that they're in fact "alternates" and act like they they made the B Camp.

That's a little bit harsh, don't you think? These are 8 and 9 year old kids afterall. So what would you suggest then? Have all the "alternates" wear t-shirts that boldly read "I AM AN ALTERNATE. I REALLY DON'T BELONG AT THIS CAMP"?? so that you can tell who "really doesn't belong there"?? Whether they made the camp as an alternate because someone was injured or dropped out because of the cost is irrelevant and shouldn't matter. If these kids were invited to the camp because of these reasons, then they belong there. Period.

 

[PureTalent]

Sorry, in no way I meant that the gyms should tell the CHILDREN that. LOL I mean I hope they tell the alternate's PARENTS that! Of course not the child my god their so young, but I feel the parents have a right to know. That's all. (Sorry, shouldn't be posting when I'm rushing in and out of the house and should have stressed and clarified that the parents should know, that's all) LOL

 

[PureTalent]

And yes, they need 70 kids not so much to "run the B camp" (that's what they might say) but it's actually to help subsidize and "pay" for the A campers.

 

[gymjourneymom]

Hmm...one would think you'd have to be "elite" to be an "elitist" I had to go check the definition:

Link Removed elitist

adjective

1. Characteristic of or resembling a snob: .

noun

1. One who despises people or things regarded as inferior, especially because of social or intellectual pretension.

Read more: elitist: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com​

 

[notjustgym]

LOL I mean I hope they tell the alternate's PARENTS that! Of course not the child my god their so young, but I feel the parents have a right to know. That's all.

Why? I don't understand why Parents should know.. Is it so that the parents can feel inferior to those that "earned" their spot as you imply? What about all those amazing talents that don't train or test TOPs at all?

And yes, they need 70 kids not so much to "run the B camp" (that's what they might say) but it's actually to help subsidize and "pay" for the A campers.

Where did you find this information?

 

[MdGymMom01]

Sorry, in no way I meant that the gyms should tell the CHILDREN that. LOL I mean I hope they tell the alternate's PARENTS that! Of course not the child my god their so young, but I feel the parents have a right to know. That's all. (Sorry, shouldn't be posting when I'm rushing in and out of the house and should have stressed and clarified that the parents should know, that's all) LOL

Wow...don't really know how to process that.

But, I feel that telling the parents that their kids shouldn't really be at that camp isn't really any much better. How would you feel if your daughter didn't make the camp initially, but was selected due to some dropouts and they told you, "Well your daughter can come to the camp, but she really isn't good enough to be there." I don't think you would feel very good .

 

[bogwoppit]

I have given Gymjourneymom an infraction for her post, not the way to address the issue. Please can we get the thread back on to the OP's issue.

If anyone wishes to debate the merits of the TOPs camps, and the rights of children to be there, please start a new thread.

Bog - The Moderator

 

[mariposa]

So glad that my daughter's gym doesn't have a TOPS program, as it obviously seems to add more drama in an already drama filled sport. Can't say I am shocked with the attitude that PureTalent has (from all her posts and username, I mean, I am sure no one missed that she is a 2 time State Champion and a TOPS girl), but it is very sad. I would suggest looking at the names of some of the TOPS kids (and previous State Champions, for that matter) and you will see that many just disappear, likely from overuse injuries, burning out from too many hours or burning out emotionally from being pushed too hard from crazy coaches and crazy parents. And then their are kids like mine, that have never been a TOPS girl or a State Champion and they just keep plugging away, happily. I guess I should have saved money all those years she has gone to States and didn't have a chance to be a State Champion, huh? Wonder if it is too late to get my refund this year?

 

[bogwoppit]

^^^^^^ Hey Mariposa back on topic or I will have to give you an off topic infraction. This thread is CRAZY!

 

[gymjourneymom]

I have given Gymjourneymom an infraction for her post, not the way to address the issue. Please can we get the thread back on to the OP's issue.

If anyone wishes to debate the merits of the TOPs camps, and the rights of children to be there, please start a new thread.

Bog - The Moderator

Sorry Bog & CB. I will be more careful in the future. I will also refrain from voicing my opinions on this topic any further. Sincerely, GJM(mother of 4 time state champ who never did a day of TOPS training).