TOPs B camp moved discussion from TOPs camp thread

[bogwoppit]

Threads have been moved here to preserve the integrity of the TOPs camp thread. THis discussion can continue in a polite and constructive way here.

 

[ginnymac]

I think that any girl invited to the camps based on their score at testing or as an alternate deserves to go to the camp. That girl who is the alternate may very well be the "cream of the crop" who just had a bad testing day.

My dd is a diver. She had an awful regional competition on one board and did not qualify (by one placement) to the next step for zones on one board. Went to zones only because another girl dropped out. Did great there and qualified to nationals. It turned out that she did not do well at regionals because she had a fever and developing bronchitis. She was definitely glad to take the "alternate" place!

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

Sorry Bog (and other mods) I just read through here. Yes, I know the original intent of the thread, however, aren't there just some instances when wandering away from the original topic is a good thing? I think this is one instance where the topic of cut off scores and who is actually "qualified" to attend camp needs to be explored in more depth

TOPs camps... well, depending on which coach you talk to, at which gym, you'll get so many different responses about the whole thing. Many elite gyms do not participate in TOPs because they believe it's not necessary (hmmm... maybe they already have coaches who can coach elite gymnasts?) to fully develop a gymnast.

Cut off scores? Well, that will vary from season to season (as has already been discussed). The actual score for that testing date, is just that. ONE score on ONE day within a very specific set of circumstances. Test the child another day and the score may be higher or lower! So the actual cut off score... well, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Why in the world would you even want to identify those who "made" camp and those who were invited because others couldn't make it? What's the motivation for doing that? Hmmmm... think about it..... Not very sportsmanlike, is it?


Yes, campers who don't make the "initial" cut off (and I'm sure it's just hundredths and tenths of points) definitely SHOULD be invited to camp WITHOUT any indication that they "didn't really make the camp." Who cares???

 

[Muddlethru]

I had a longer post but after reading all the other posters, I found my position was well represented. Every young gymnast that tried out for TOPS wants to make the team. Every parent wishes that as well for their daughter. I don't see why it is so important to put everyone into a category. Can't we just celebrate the hard work of these girls instead of cutting them down. Gary Warren himself said, they try to make it fun at the camps because they feel it is a celebration. There should not be a caste system. After all, when everything is said and done and "winning" matters, it may be the one with the t-shirt saying I did not make the B team but I am only filling a spot that may be standing on the podium.

 

[Blackie6]

Yes, they DO go down the list to fill the spots for B camp. Now whether the gym will tell u this or not or act like your DD truly made it, is on them. But personally, had my DD been "second fiddle" like that, I would have to decline. To me, either she made it or didn't. And to fill the spots like they do because B campers decline is sort of misleading to me. Especially if they're going to act like they made B camp when actuality they didn't.

Have you inhaled too much chalk at your gym girl? Seriously? Anyone who made that TOPS B team is just as deserving as the TOPS A group. There could be the difference of just one point that seperates the two teams since there needs to be a cut off somewhere. CONGRATS to the A team and the B team, they all should be comended on their accomplishments!

 

[thnkGd4kds]

I'm so astounded by this thread that I'm speechless--almost. How to even reply? Let's see. How about a personal story?

My young dd, coming off of her first competition season, where she competed just 5 L5 meets and was a state champ (just fyi and to let you know that there are many talented, state champ-like girls out there) had the incredible honor of making it down to National Testing her first year testing. Nobody had any expectations of her making either team, but since such a SMALL PERCENTAGE of girls tested even make it to that testing, we wanted her to be rewarded by attending it. Lo and behold, she missed the B cut-off by a TINY FRACTION and was invited to B camp after someone declined. She went. SAME camp, SAME experience, but more money to go. (I'm not sure where the idea came from that the money was used for A camp. That's an interesting thought, but most likely incorrect. I'm "pretty sure" the money obtained from all testing would probably cover it. Pardon the sarcasm. I digress.)

Next year... DD competed one L6 meet, a few L7 meets, and was a L7 state champ. She had the incredible honor again being among the VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE of girls who made National Testing. Results were so close that she missed A camp (even though I know it's called a team, it's not really a team--they're not competing or anything) by the TINIEST NUMBER, yet missed B camp by a MINUTE FRACTION. Got asked again and went. Guess what? THE NATIONAL COACHES--same as those who will be with your daughter, who is ALSO highly talented, repeatedly asked DD's coaches many questions about DD throughout the camp. (No, they don't inquire about everyone--not even close. That is according to the coaches of several gyms, including ours, who have been there often with many girls.). We ran into one of the national coaches months later, and guess what? She knew my DD's name without any prompting. Obviously, this "second fiddle" girl made quite an impression on the national coaching staff, the SAME that will be with your dd.

I hope that future parents of children who make B camp--or barely make it-- and the children who once upon a time attended B camp read the outpouring of rage and rationale against the elitist and, more importantly, incorrect idea that ANYONE who attended National Testing is inferior to A camp girls or any camp girls. As I emphasized throughout my post, the difference between these girls during that one-shot particular test is most often minuscule.

Add to that what everyone else said about gyms and high-level gymnasts who don't participate in TOPs, TOPs girls who suffer from burn-out, etc., and I think it's pretty clear that we should not make TOPs camps of any kind THE barometer of who is a "success" and who is not--or, who is "second fiddle." In the end, these are all children we're talking about, after all; shouldn't we all come together and support and respect each other's children and their individual pathways in this sport?

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

ThnkGd4kds... I don't just "like" your post... I LOVE it. Especially from the voice of someone who's been there and done that!!

 

[PureTalent]

Have you inhaled too much chalk at your gym girl? Seriously?

Oh come on now, that's not very nice to say about me because you disagree with something I said. We need to learn to agree to disagree OR to accept that people has different opinions. Period. Hey, and it's all good! I'm truly enjoying reading everyone take on this or any other type of "debate" issue that comes up. Doesn't bother me in the least if someone has a different idea, thought, opinion, suggestion, or perspective...this is what makes this a great place with a bunch of different people with differing thoughts, ideas and opinions (hey, it'll be kinda boring if everyone thought exactly the same! ). People can post how they feel, what opinion they have or whatever else. But please, refrain from those type of comments to another person. I've been very respectful in stating my opinion(s) and if I disagree don't feel the need to say rude-ish comments to others as so you have. If you disagree that's fine. Just deal with it in an adult-like fashion. Thank you!
Oh yea, and you're probably right I certainly could have inhaled too much chalk at the gym since I'm one of the "lucky ones" who gets to clean it two evenings a week! LOL

Sorry bog and admins. Didn't mean to get off topic but felt the need to point that out.

Continue on people.....

 

[flippin out]

Beautifully put ThnkGd4kds! Great to hear from you again.

 

[PureTalent]

thankgod4kids - I think that's awesome....great story. See, you were at least made aware by the gym that she "missed it" by a hair of a fraction and hey she was invited (deservingly so) anyway because of a decline. NOthing wrong with that. She deserved it (to be invited), just like parents deserve to know that they got this and this score and they may have missed it by a fraction of a tenth, that's all. I just think it's great that the gym communicated the truth to you Thanks for sharing your story!

 

[notjustgym]

PureTalent - I am trying really hard to grasp your post abotu Parents needing to know that their child Missed the testing score. I still don't understand why it is important. Lets say it was the opposite situation and your child JUST BARELY By the skin of their leo qualified for B (or A) team. Do you feel parents need to be told that as well? or because they "made" the team is that all that matters?

trying to understand.

 

[thnkGd4kds]

Thank you, TQM and flippin out.

Puretalent, respectfully, I believe you've missed the point (by more than a fraction-- lol--JK). It doesn't matter how or if the message is conveyed. The only true message is that these are ALL amazingly talented gymnasts, and they ALL deserve to be treated and spoken about in that way.

 

[Gymmonkeymomma]

PureTalent - I am trying really hard to grasp your post abotu Parents needing to know that their child Missed the testing score. I still don't understand why it is important. Lets say it was the opposite situation and your child JUST BARELY By the skin of their leo qualified for B (or A) team. Do you feel parents need to be told that as well? or because they "made" the team is that all that matters?

trying to understand.

Wow, I've been away from the computer all day but certainly this is a very interesting thread. As I read the post directly above this, I was thinking the same thing as Notjustgym - WHY is it so important to you, Pure Talent, that these parents are told that the child did not make the cutoff and was just getting into Camp because someone else declined?

ALL of the gymnasts who work hard and enjoy the sport are SPECIAL, in my eyes. You are talking about a very dedicated and talented group of children (boys as well as girls) who train and compete, TOPS or no TOPS. As pointed out by someone above, there are many Elites who never did TOPS, there are many well known gyms with exceptional gymnasts, who do not participate in TOPS. It is one day, one test, it could have gone either way for any of the girls including yours.

You stated that you personally would not send your dd if she was an alternate - I'm curiuos as to how would you have explained that to her? Would you have told her that you don't think she is deserving? What will happen if next year she's the one who misses by a hair? Would that make her any less talented?

I'm very confused at what you think is gained by making sure someone knows that his/her child didn't make the 'first cut'. ???

 

[txgymfan]

I appreciate how open everyone is being and I think I see both sides. Some people like to know exactly where they stand, they want to know all of the scores, all of the time, when they happen and what they mean. Someone once said about me "she wants to know what you know what you know, when you know it". I have seen enough "shades of truth" and "lies of omission" meant to "protect me" to last a lifetime. So I understand thinking parents deserve the honest truth. Many parents want the total truth. If the kids want to know then I am not opposed to them knowing as well, it depends on the athlete. As a preteen I would have wanted to know the whole truth weather the adults around me chose to tell me or not.

In addition, EVERY gymnast should be proud, making it to national testing is INCREDIBLE, making it to B-team is an honor, making it to A-team shows that a gymnast is one of the very best in the country at the tested skills. All of the team members should be proud, inspired and have fun. Once the gymnast gets to camp the field is even. No one knows the rank, one team working for similar goals. Do your best and focus on your goals, time for comparison to others is done, there is no ranking for the next round.

It's a HARD balance, how much honesty, when and to whom is a part of relationships.

The golden rule is "treat others the way you want to be treated". I am odd enough to disagree, my thought is "treat others the way THEY want to be treated". It may not be the same way you want to be treated.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[flippin out]

You stated that you personally would not send your dd if she was an alternate - I'm curiuos as to how would you have explained that to her? Would you have told her that you don't think she is deserving? What will happen if next year she's the one who misses by a hair? Would that make her any less talented?

I'm very confused at what you think is gained by making sure someone knows that his/her child didn't make the 'first cut'. ???

Goes to a post that I made earlier as well..........would you also not allow your dd to compete at Regionals or Nationals if she hadn't qualified to begin with, but had gotten in because someone else dropped out? That has happened many times. Girls qualify to be able to compete at Nationals and Alternates are named. If your dd was the Alternate, and a spot opened up to compete Nationals....would you decline on that same principle. I don't think I know anyone that would tell a kid " I refuse to let you compete - you should have done better at the Regionals if you wanted to go".

I would be proud to let my dd compete at Nationals, regardless. Being named Alternate is a honor as well.

 

[PureTalent]

I appreciate how open everyone is being and I think I see both sides. Some people like to know exactly where they stand, they want to know all of the scores, all of the time, when they happen and what they mean. Someone once said about me "she wants to know what you know what you know, when you know it". I have seen enough "shades of truth" and "lies of omission" meant to "protect me" to last a lifetime. So I understand thinking parents deserve the honest truth. Many parents want the total truth. If the kids want to know then I am not opposed to them knowing as well, it depends on the athlete. As a preteen I would have wanted to know the whole truth weather the adults around me chose to tell me or not.

In addition, EVERY gymnast should be proud, making it to national testing is INCREDIBLE, making it to B-team is an honor, making it to A-team shows that a gymnast is one of the very best in the country at the tested skills. All of the team members should be proud, inspired and have fun. Once the gymnast gets to camp the field is even. No one knows the rank, one team working for similar goals. Do your best and focus on your goals, time for comparison to others is done, there is no ranking for the next round.

It's a HARD balance, how much honesty, when and to whom is a part of relationships.

The golden rule is "treat others the way you want to be treated". I am odd enough to disagree, my thought is "treat others the way THEY want to be treated". It may not be the same way you want to be treated.

Just my 2 cents.

So I'm starting to post my response to notjustgym and thankgd4kids in a way that can be understood and see txgymfan's post snuck in there. lol And her 1st paragraph she hit the nail on the head. I was going to say something similar (her wording is much more eloquent than mine woulda been I'm sure. Sometimes I"m bad at explaining things). Unfortunately we came from a gym years ago in which everything was a total lie. Things were ommitted to the parent, lies were told. It was awful. I thought my god is all gyms like this? So coming from there to a gym like this where they are as honest as honest could be, I just love it. And to answser notjustgym's question....yes, if DD just barely qualified for a camp yes I'd have no problems knowing at all. As a matter of fact, last year she did just barely qualify to camp and it to me was just interesting info to know. I wanna know everything like txgymfan said in a sense. lol Now to answser gymmonkey mamma's question. No, I would never tell DD that she's not deserving to go. She would understand that you needed to score within a certain range to go. Period. I know she'll be fine with it and would make herself try to make it the following year. Had she really pressed me about it, I would perhaps think of sending her. But she's not really like that.

Oh, and to clarify....I don't want anyone at all to get the impression that I'm saying that alternates are not deserving to go. Never said that at all! They all work hard and more power to them if parents have them go on an invite because of a decline. That's great, especially if it's by a miniscule. But for me, I wouldn't. It's just my choice, my decision. DD would really have to hassle me to go. lol But knowing her she'd be fine with it. To each it's own and I'd never say to my DD she's not deserving to go. She knows what we all think of her and how far she has come. She wouldn't need an invite and for me to accept to feel she's a good gymnast. So that's just my choice. All the girls who even make it to the National testing are amazing!!! Let alone the kids who make it to camps...a or b.

Oooh another post snuck in LOL As far as regionals or nationals if someone had to decline cuz of an injury sure I'd leave that choice to my DD if she wanted to step in. That's competition wise which in TOPS in a sense you're really not competing. Most of the girls at TOPS are so young and most are declining cuz of the cost. When you're competing in regionals or nationals at higher optional levels, I'd think one can't do it cuz of an injury and if DD is asked to be an alternate if she decides to, that choice will be hers to make. To me it's sorta hard to compare tops with that kind of national competition ya know?

 

[hppy4u2]

As harsh as PureTalent is being portrayed, I don't think she's that far off based on our attendance at the Tops meeting (Saturday morning). First off our daughter made B camp (long story but you can probably find a thread here on Chalk Bucket about our Tops coach leaving...thanks to YouTube our daughter made B camp despite the coach assigned to our daughter at the ranch decided to leave her and watch some other girls during testing).

But back to the topic of the thread, Gary said during our meeting that they started B camp because the parents of the girls who didn't make the cut for A camp kept "asking" (I interpret that to mean kept bothering based on how he presented that fact) for something for their girls. He even mentioned that some of the staff from A camp would be different from B camp. He didn't really specify how many or which staff but my wife and I had to question whether or not we would send our daughter to camp based on what Gary had said. We were originally led to believe that the girls who made B camp were close during testing but were being offered an opportunity for national staff to see if the girls just had a bad day but that thought process was completely gone after the meeting. Additionally, Gary also said that he would normally send 100 invites since historically 60-70 girls would normally accept and that is the number that needed to be met to make the camp cost effective.

So contrary to what PureTalent said above, B campers aren't subsidizing the A campers according to Gary, our money is used to pay for our girls to attend a camp that Gary initially didn't want to have.

 

[Granny Smith]

Thank you happy4u2 for clearing that up.

 

[Muddlethru]

So I'm starting to post my response to notjustgym and thankgd4kids in a way that can be understood and see txgymfan's post snuck in there. lol And her 1st paragraph she hit the nail on the head. I was going to say something similar (her wording is much more eloquent than mine woulda been I'm sure. Sometimes I"m bad at explaining things). Unfortunately we came from a gym years ago in which everything was a total lie. Things were ommitted to the parent, lies were told. It was awful. I thought my god is all gyms like this? So coming from there to a gym like this where they are as honest as honest could be, I just love it.

First of all, I don't see any harm to the gymnasts who made the A and B team, the gymnasts who just may be filling in, the gymnast who missed the mark by a mile or their families if a white lie was told. I don't think the efforts and accomplishments of the gymnasts who made the A and B team is diminished. This accomplishment to be worth anything should be more internal than external.

At the same time, I somewhat see what you are saying and tend to agree to a certain degree. I too would like more honesty. I understand and support coaches who try to boost the self-esteem of their girls even if they have to fudge with the truth. Case at point at our gym, about 10 girls tested on the regional level for TOPS. Only one made it to national. There was this one gymnast who worked her butt of this summer. She put in double the amount of hours my daughter did-going to our gym's camp in the mornings over and above practice in the afternoon. Unfortunately, she did not make national testing. The coach told her she missed cut-off by four points. This of course was not true. Holding a handstand for 10 seconds, doing 1 press to handstand, 8 leg lifts, etc. just would not have missed it by 4 points. Though I somehow felt it diminished my daughter's accomplishment somehow, I think it was the right thing for the coach to do to keep this girl's confidence up.

Back tracking to last year's national testing, my daughter did not make the team but the coach told my daughter she missed cut-off by 4 points (obviously this is the magic consolation number at our gym). This of course was not true. Though she scored well for the amount of practice, she was only consistent 10 percent of the time (her words not mine). I think she noticed the irony and asked me, "do you think my coach was telling me the truth that I only missed the team by 4 points?" I am always honest, maybe too honest, with my kids. So, I told her I didn't think she was that close. Now, like puretalent, I do want the truth. But that is me and that works for me. But we are all different. What I think is if being given a "white lie" does more good than bad, then why not? More often than not, people already know the truth. I just don't see the point in sticking it to their faces.

 

[bogwoppit]

I don't think anyone should be lied to.

I just think some people are happy with a "Your kid came really close", or "Guess what..... your kid made B team after all". I imagine that happens and that for some people that enough information.