Women TOPs Hopes Elite results - secret?

[bookworm]

So, kids do not have to be level 10's to enter an elite qualifier? I thought that they would have at least competed some at level 10 before trying to qualify elite.

Nope, entry fee is all that is "required"...

 

[gymdog]

Do any of you think there should be a qualifying JO 10 score necessary to enter an Elite qualifier?

No because some of them are not level 10s and level 10s skills are not required at all...the goal is to identified YOUNG gymnasts with strong base level skills, body alignment, and physical abilities that USAG can take into the developmental program. There was a little girl from MG who scored a 39 compulsories (that's huge) and I'm not sure she's competed level 10 but that's just what the NT is looking for...and I know that the second (I believe she was 2nd, that could be wrong) highest scoring kid at that meet with also a big score was a level 7 last year competing 9 this season. This was at Parkette's.

 

[Empowered]

The MG Elite girl who scored a 39 at Parkettes competed her first level 10 meet in Dec 2013 and went to JO Nationals in 2014.

 

[gymdog]

The MG Elite girl who scored a 39 at Parkettes competed her first level 10 meet in Dec 2013 and went to JO Nationals in 2014.

Oh okay - like I said I wasn't sure. Obviously she is really good. I know she just moved to MG, presumably to do elite. I do know another high scoring kid in the Hopes category at that meet and she was a 7 and now a 9. Has some 10 skills in the works definitely. So I mean I think if they aren't at that skill level then they're going to get filtered out pretty obviously even if they did manage to pass compulsories. But just to test compulsories or get involved in the devo program I'm not sure that's compatible with their goals because a) it's apart from the JO program and b) the most successful kids in it are often kids who are moving up and skipping levels fast anyway so their last level might not be applicable. In the compulsory test they're really evaluating whether the kid has elite potential in the area of basic skill amplitude, body alignment, technique, form etc. I'm not sure how you can weed out those who score low beyond letting them give it a try and score low and realize they aren't there.

 

[Hollowarchkick]

I've seen many good young gymnasts get destroyed at qualifiers because the coaches haven't prepared them well. The compulsories are very specific and things like extra steps going into a tumbling pass are .3 each. When they add one or two to each pass, you're looking at over a point. I've seen them go and skip giants, miss dance elements on beam... That's part of the really low scores. It's a learning process for the younger coaches too.
As far as why some of the hopes kids may not do well in JO, there are several reasons. I know that I don't construct my hopes girls routines for JO rules. I use those meets to try newer skills to gain experience competing them in a competitive environment. If they've got a new dismount that she'll do at classics or some other meet, I don't want that to be where they compete it first. Keep in mind, this is just a different perspective and why some of those results look the way they do.

 

[Jenny]

I've seen many good young gymnasts get destroyed at qualifiers because the coaches haven't prepared them well. The compulsories are very specific and things like extra steps going into a tumbling pass are .3 each. When they add one or two to each pass, you're looking at over a point. I've seen them go and skip giants, miss dance elements on beam... That's part of the really low scores. It's a learning process for the younger coaches too.
As far as why some of the hopes kids may not do well in JO, there are several reasons. I know that I don't construct my hopes girls routines for JO rules. I use those meets to try newer skills to gain experience competing them in a competitive environment. If they've got a new dismount that she'll do at classics or some other meet, I don't want that to be where they compete it first. Keep in mind, this is just a different perspective and why some of those results look the way they do.

Thank you that makes a lot of sense. I don't see any reason for a qualifying score from JO to enter elite qualifiers because they are looking at 2 different things.

I actually think you could do with a lot more elite and hopes meets and a completely separate competition stream from Level 7 up. I don't think elite kids should be allowed to compete in JO . To me there are only 3 reasons to do that - to put new moves out for competition experience, to win stuff by competing back, for competition experience due to low numbers of elite competitions. But I don't think it would be practical to implement for so many reasons.

 

[bogwoppit]

Agree, I know in Canada we do have a stream for elite bound girls who are competition age. That is 8 and up. It works well and means they are not competing JO. The US certainly has the numbers to support an elite stream.

When I said Elite kids should have scored a 37.5 AA at a L10 meet to test elite, I meant girls testing for JNY or SNR elite. Hopes girls are not considered elite, I did check that in the USAG documents, but they should be proficient and have the ability to be successful at the meets. Nobody wants a child to go in to a meet without that ability to reach the passing score. Falls happen, bad days happen, but being not ready should not really be a thing for hopes or elite.

 

[coachmolly]

I agree that the developmental process for elite is different from the JO path. I was at a meet a few weeks ago where a HOPEs kid was competing in the level 10 session because her coaches just wanted her to get meet experience with her newer, bigger elite skills in front of a crowd. She did okay, but placed towards the bottom of the bunch. However, that was not indicative of a kid who should not be prepping for elite, but rather a kid in the midst of a learning curve in the process. The goal wasn't to score a 38 at level 10 with skills she had mastered months ago.
I think that's different from a coach who throws a kid into elite compulsories who does not have a solid foundation- which, unfortunately, happens. And I'm not talking mistakes/bad days/learning curves, just kids who are not ready.

 

[bogwoppit]

I think that's different from a coach who throws a kid into elite compulsories who does not have a solid foundation- which, unfortunately, happens. And I'm not talking mistakes/bad days/learning curves, just kids who are not ready.

Totally agree.

 

[gasrgoose]

It's very interesting to me the faults people seem to have found in USA gymnastics. The same USA gymnastics that is the dominant team in the world and could fill 2-3 seriously competitive international teams. You might not like the system but it clearly works! It's not perfect but it produces amazing results.

I'm curious how the contract between USA gymnastics and the Ranch reads. Will "camps" remain at the ranch when Marta steps down? Will there be a transition over years that has Faehn working alongside Marta? It seems like it would be difficult to have camps at the Ranch and not have Marta in charge.

 

[bogwoppit]

It's very interesting to me the faults people seem to have found in USA gymnastics. The same USA gymnastics that is the dominant team in the world and could fill 2-3 seriously competitive international teams. You might not like the system but it clearly works! It's not perfect but it produces amazing results.

I would say it works so well because the US population is huge and relatively wealthy. The US has 318 million, UK has 66 million, Canada 33 million, pretty apparent that the bigger the population the better chance you have of fielding a winning team every time, especially when there is money to fund it.

My fault with the system is the apparent lack of clarity. The actual system is fine, though coaches could be given better guidelines to help them filter gymnasts who are suited to the process.

I think that coach education is key and when I first wandered in to a US gym 16 years ago I was very surprised to discover that there was no real coach education system. This clearly is changing and evolving.

 

[GymmieC]

Me too.

Did you also know that the Karolyi's actually own the ranch and that USAG pays them a massive amount of money yearly to use it? Instead of USAG using the money and building a more central, and modern, facility. I find that very bizarre too.

This is how it has always been done since they took over. They were the Hot gym when Bela coached. All the kids flocked there. That's probably what caused the Karolyis to stay in it so long. I wonder what will happen when Marta retires?
And Bogwoppit, I completely agree with you....the secrecy does have a lot to do with money. I was surprised to see that USA posted Gliders elite results so quickly...it is on the USA website. Im wondering how quickly Brestyns will be posted on there.
Too many gyms Falsely train girls elite for the sme reason...money...

 

[txgymfan]

I actually think you could do with a lot more elite and hopes meets and a completely separate competition stream from Level 7 up. I don't think elite kids should be allowed to compete in JO .

In some of the bigger meets there is a Level 10/ Open division specifically for the top 10s and aspiring elites.

 

[calli]

I think that the gymnasts going to DC have been identified by the National Staff as having the potential to go elite. I think that invites back to DC or being part of the Developmental Team are a good sign that these gymnasts are on the right path at least for the time being. There are usually just about 40 girls at the Developmental Camp, which isn't a lot. I like the idea of a qualifying score in JO for gymnasts to be able to enter the qualifiers more so for the gymnasts not part of DC.

 

[QueenBee]

I think there are a couple of issues here being combined that should be unraveled. I think there is less connection between the two than others on this board.

1. The secrecy surrounding elite training and selection.

2. Parents and coaches making decisions on who should test elite.

Knowing almost nothing about elite training, testing and selection - I can't really comment on whether there should be more transparency in the process. I do know I have no personal stake in it, so don't think too much about it.

On the other hand, I do have lots of experience with parents (and not just in this sport). And I would say that you would still have parents pushing gymnasts who may not be "elite material" to test no matter how much or how little their child might benefit from trying that path. There are unrealistic parents in every activity my children have ever been involved with, who made (in my opinion) poor choices for their child/family and found teachers/coaches/whomever that would support those bad decisions. They leave responsible adults and programs if/when they were told info they didn't like.

The information that would help in determining what path your child should be on in gymnastics does not seem to be that hard to find. Their success in the JO program, their age, their body type, and most also important - the scores of others trying the same path are pretty easy to know. Accepting the conclusion that can be drawn from that information is the difficult part. Perhaps some coaches allow elite testing in order to provide that last data point to prove unsuitability - I don't know. Or maybe there are lots of terrible coaches out there lying through their teeth about the chances of making it elite. I would think parents could still figure some of this out without the coaches input.

So, maybe I am wrong and there are way more unready girls testing elite than the usual number you would find equivalent example in any other activity. But somehow, I think you would probably find about the same in every sport or high level activity out there. I have seen craziness in soccer, ballet, baseball, lacrosse - you name it, anything discussed here in the name of crazy has been done in these other sports. Usually in the name of getting a college scholarship.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

You might not like the system but it clearly works! It's not perfect but it produces amazing results.

I would say that if you want to accurately judge the success of the system you need to look at world ranked athletes per capita of population, suddenly then countries like the Netherlands do remarkably well!

 

[calli]

The girls from MG who scored so high at Parkettes also attended Developmental Camps back in 2014.

 

[bogwoppit]

I think that the gymnasts going to DC have been identified by the National Staff as having the potential to go elite. I think that invites back to DC or being part of the Developmental Team are a good sign that these gymnasts are on the right path at least for the time being. There are usually just about 40 girls at the Developmental Camp, which isn't a lot. I like the idea of a qualifying score in JO for gymnasts to be able to enter the qualifiers more so for the gymnasts not part of DC.

I think DC is very different to DIC camps and TOPs B camp. Though even at DC some kids just "grow out of the camp and do not get invited to Nat team camp, they just are let go from the camp system.

 

[bogwoppit]

So, maybe I am wrong and there are way more unready girls testing elite than the usual number you would find equivalent example in any other activity. But somehow, I think you would probably find about the same in every sport or high level activity out there. I have seen craziness in soccer, ballet, baseball, lacrosse - you name it, anything discussed here in the name of crazy has been done in these other sports. Usually in the name of getting a college scholarship.

I think this is very much a US phenomena as I cannot think of any other country who takes kids sports to that level. SO one breeds the other, a bit chicken and the egg?

 

[vbdb]

I think this is very much a US phenomena as I cannot think of any other country who takes kids sports to that level. SO one breeds the other, a bit chicken and the egg?

Also our post-secondary school system sport scholarship opportunities are very limited here so there's not that same push to get on a track for that kind of recognition. Most of the sports related parental insanity here is around Hockey where all the little boys are going to the NHL but really are just being set up to leave their wives once a week to play men's league as adults.