Tops?

[purplesunflowers]

How "exclusive" do coaches/gyms try to make TOPS? Most of the kids in my daughter's class around her age were asked to do TOPS, but she wasn't. My daughter competed level 4 as a 7-year-old this fall for the first time and did fairly well (above 35), scoring almost exactly what the other kids who were asked to do TOPS scored. I was always under the impression that the lot of them were about at the same level, with some skills being easier for others. Some of the kids asked to be in TOPS learn skills fast and are more 'daring' than my daughter, but at least one struggled more than my daughter did through the level 4 season.

I wouldn't care if the coach wouldn't have said during class "so and so should be able to do this easily since they are in TOPS." Then my daughter noticed that they were all in the program and she wasn't. Strength shouldn't be the issue, my daughter is strong from gymnastics and has taught herself upper level skills during free time.

Thoughts? I'm torn between being thankful that we're saving $$ and upset because she feels left out. Then there's the burn-out issue. I'm wondering if it's better that she doesn't participate in TOPS because it might burn her out.

Thoughts?

Another question... Do coaches take into consideration the cost of these programs when they ask families to participate?

 

[UnoMas]

Our gym pretty much only picks TOPS kids out of the 4 year old preschool classes. They are "noticed" in those classes, asked to be in a preschool advanced invite only class with the head coach, and then depending on how they do there, feed straight into L2 and TOPs. Only once in awhile is anyone older than 4-5 chosen for TOPs. Having said that...being in TOPs does not always predict performance. My daughter for example, is really struggling with level 4 bars skills, yet she is in TOPs. And she can do most of the TOPs skills pretty well. And we have another 7 year old in L4 who is scoring 36 plus and will move to L5 next season, who is not in TOPs. And great performance at level 4,5, whatever, generally does not mean that a new child will be added to TOPs at our gym. So, for our gym it is exclusive, but based on being young and having "potential". TOPs has surely increased my DD's strength (she was already really flexible), but it is surely not making her a superstar at level 4! She really enjoys TOPs though for some strange reason and we just hope that at some point it all comes together for her.

I dont think $$ is a factor when choosing TOPs kids but the gym certainly spells out all the costs to a family before they enroll in the program.

 

[purplesunflowers]

Thanks! There is one younger kid in the class, but the other girls are about my daughter's age (7-9). I wish the coaches would tell us what the criteria is. It's just hard because now my daughter has noticed that most kids her age from her level class are in TOPS and she's not... and I really can't tell her why. Unless they think that the kids that they "chose" would be good at the particular skills that TOPS tests on. The coach told our daughter that it was just extra conditioning. Our area didn't have a gym that did the TOPS program until recently, so most of the optionals at this gym did not participate in TOPS. Hmm. It's good to know that not all kids who score well are in TOPS though. This gymnastics thing baffles me sometimes though. Wouldn't you want ALL your team to do extra conditioning and be in TOPS if they are at the same level skill-wise?

 

[bogwoppit]

Most of the 2008 Olympic team gymnasts didn't come from TOPS gyms. WOGA doesn't use TOPS and neither do many top clubs. I can understand how it is hard for your little one to be not invited to the class, but in the long run the extra hours of conditioning may not be what she needs and may cause gymnasts to drop out. For sure some girls do get noticed this way and coaches do get to go the the National Training camps and learn from the "best", but it doesn't mean your child cannot go all the way their potential and hard work will take them if she doesn't do TOPS.

Just look at Shawn Johnson, she was unheard of until she was 13 as she had never been near a national camp.

 

[NGL780309]

DD who is 6 years old does TOPS at her gym, but for her gym it isn't a special group. They have everyone do it, but they will only take a really sensational kid to test. The way it was explained to me is that they started it last year and didn't take anyone to test and probably won't this year. Our girls train a relatively low number of hours and they felt like that most gyms participating spent many extra hours working for the TOPS test. That isn't the goal of this gym. They said they were interested in using TOPS training for the benefits of it and not the recognition. It sounded good to me because I don't think we need something else to stress about in our lives right now!

 

[gymdog]

DD who is 6 years old does TOPS at her gym, but for her gym it isn't a special group. They have everyone do it, but they will only take a really sensational kid to test. The way it was explained to me is that they started it last year and didn't take anyone to test and probably won't this year. Our girls train a relatively low number of hours and they felt like that most gyms participating spent many extra hours working for the TOPS test. That isn't the goal of this gym. They said they were interested in using TOPS training for the benefits of it and not the recognition. It sounded good to me because I don't think we need something else to stress about in our lives right now!

Actually, if I was going to coach TOPs (it's really not big in my state at all...I've never worked at a gym that does it, and I have not much interest in pushing it), then I think this is the best way to handle it. Unless you have a really huge team and limited coaching I can't see how much you would NEED to deal with the issue of exclusion (though I suppose it depends on whether you do it during the regular workout or as an additional class), and then it's a matter of whether the kids ultimately meet the baseline criteria you set or not.

But most gyms don't seem to do it this way, from what I've gathered.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

... And unfortunately, some gyms use a so-called TOPs program simply to bring in extra cash... and boy does it bring in LOTS of cash...

 

[sportzmomov3]

Let me hopefully reassure you on this TOPs stuff. TOPs means nothing in the big picture for the gymnast. My DD trained TOPs and qualified to the National Test on her first try. Was the extra conditioning beneficial? Maybe, maybe not - she was already an above average strong girl before training TOPs. Was she a more successful gymnast than others because of it? No (though I know the parents of kids who weren't invited to TOPs strongly disagree). In the end TOPs won't be the difference in what makes your DD successful in this sport. Coaches all have their own "criteria" for what they view as "potential" and it doesn't always equate to scores, especially at the younger ages/lower levels (which is another reason not to worry about scores, but that's another topic!) So don't even give it a second thought. There will be plenty of time to train hard when she's an optional gymnast learning difficult new skills. For now, as a 7 year-old she needs to just enjoy the sport for what it is - an exciting activity where you do cool stuff. As a parent of a gymnast, just enjoy it with her and be amazed at how she develops because of her time in this sport.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

spot on posts by Bog, Tumblequeensmom & Gigglesmom. might as well close the thread. you 3 said it all.

 

[purplesunflowers]

THANKS everybody. I'm not dealing well with the exclusion part of it all, and I think the coach should have refrained from making the comment about "Jane" being able to do something because she "was in TOPS" during DD's class. I think it would have stayed off of DD's radar if nothing was said. DD HAD a large level 4 team, but they moved some up to level 5 (mostly the slightly older kids) and kept a much smaller group back in what they are calling the level 4 class... though they ARE working on level 5 skills and have the potential to move to the level 5 group later on. I guess it really bugs me that they have asked almost ALL but my daughter to participate in TOPS. Maybe even ALL her age from her class, I'm not sure. It's not talked about (per owner request) and I don't stand around nosing around LOL! I drop off, watch the warm up... show up 20 min. before the end of class to watch a tiny bit because DD likes me to see some of what she does. I wonder how DD feels about it. As much as we try to not have her do this, she does compare herself to the other kids in her class around her age. And none of this helps the fact that a lot of the girls included in the TOPS class are good friends/neighbors out of class so they're all close. We live on the other side of town. For them to be included and for her NOT to be included has to be hard on her. I have told her that most of the optionals at our gym have not done TOPS. I have two in gymnastics though, so the extra payment would be an issue for us. Sometimes I wonder if that might be a factor. I SO want this to just be fun for her, where she gets to learn new neat stuff. I was never a gymnast, and I often tell the girls how I wish *I* could do what they do. It's all amazing to me. I think that my younger DD is putting a lot of pressure on herself to keep up with the other gymnasts in her group and also catch up to her older sister. I think part of the criteria for "potential" in this sport is daring (there's probably a better way to put this). My DD does well, but she's not the first one in her group to try a new "scary" skill. She always learns it because she works through the fear and wants to do it, but some of the kids in her class are just bouncing off the walls! I would think that especially at the younger level the coaches would be looking for that fearless child.

 

[gymjoy]

Here is a secret I have discovered about gymnastics - everyone always thinks it is the fearless little girls who make it to the top. You know, the ones who bounce off the walls, try anything, chuck new skills at the drop of a hat. These girls do a lot of winning early on , and they get a lot of attention for it. But, overall, the concept of the fearless one is not true!!! I have seen many of those fearless girls drop out as soon as the going gets tough. As soon as they run into new skills they can not master quickly, when they start having fears, and when they start not always winning - they are more likely to quit. However, girls like yours, the ones who have traveled the rougher side of the gymnastics road and learned early on how to overcome their fears and disappointments, learned how to work patiently and hard for the next skill - those girls endure and succeed in this sport. Because, as we like to say here, it is a marathon, not a sprint.

So, keep talking to your dd about her path to success, as well as success she has already had in gym. Point out, as some have here, that tops does not equal success. Help her to know that this is not her friends doing, so she does not feel upset at them for her exclusion. Help her set some goals for her training to help her focus on her continuing improvement. It can be hard to not look around feeling like everyone else can do this or that, but not me. Or, as a parent, watch other girls get skills that your dd has not even begun to train - or not been given the opportunity to train.
I always tell dd that gymnastics is a selfish sport. Sometimes, you just have to focus on yourself and forget about what everybody else is doing.

 

[purplesunflowers]

GOOD answer Gymjoy, I like the way you think She HAS had to work HARD on the floor to get some skills that these girls learn on a home trampoline or at free time at the gym. I feel LOTS better now... though I'm still frustrated with the coach for bringing TOPS up in class LOL!

 

[gymdog]

Here is a secret I have discovered about gymnastics - everyone always thinks it is the fearless little girls who make it to the top. You know, the ones who bounce off the walls, try anything, chuck new skills at the drop of a hat. These girls do a lot of winning early on , and they get a lot of attention for it. But, overall, the concept of the fearless one is not true!!! I have seen many of those fearless girls drop out as soon as the going gets tough. As soon as they run into new skills they can not master quickly, when they start having fears, and when they start not always winning - they are more likely to quit. However, girls like yours, the ones who have traveled the rougher side of the gymnastics road and learned early on how to overcome their fears and disappointments, learned how to work patiently and hard for the next skill - those girls endure and succeed in this sport. Because, as we like to say here, it is a marathon, not a sprint.

I agree in some respects, but that's not really always true either. I know some girls who were always good who kept doing gymnastics until level 10. In some ways I'd guess most of the former level 10s and level 10s I know were "always pretty good" in some sense, although that doesn't mean they always got high scores and won. At the lower levels, being able to do skills is generally a better predictor of future success than being able to do routines. I have seen some girls who were barely capable of getting through routines early on, but were actually very good...the early scores didn't really reflect it.

But on the other hand, every level 10, at some point, had some challenge, and after some point, will continue to have that issue...whether it be beam series, bars dismount, connection tumbling, vault fears, etc. A lot of it really depends on personality. Also many kids with raw athleticism do well early on but then choose to devote their time to high level training in another sport. I don't see that as a problem...gymnastics is a good base for any potential athlete to do early on.

 

[Mack_the_Ripper]

I know that at my gym, we used to have a separate group for TOPS kids. It wound up not working out - there was a lot of infighting and the girls separated into different ability levels pretty soon. Now there's two kids doing TOPS and one who's going to soon: obviously, we don't have very many doing the program. Of those three, one is 6 years old and a level 5 with some 6 skills, one is an 8-year-old level 7, and one is an 8-year-old with a lot of level 8 skills, though she's competing 7 as well.

We choose girls for TOPS not only who are strong, flexible, and doing well at their current level, but also those who have gymnastic bodies, pick up skills quickly and well, take corrections well, and have a focused personality. In other words, they have to show long-term promise.

 

[CoachGoofy]

We don't do TOPS, but we do the T&T counterpart (JumpStart). All the kids do the physical abilities, they do the skills appropriate to what they can do, & if anyone really blows us away with both the skills and the physical abilities then we go to testing. Otherwise, it's not like it hurt them to do the conditioning.

 

[gymnut1]

It might be worth a quiet word with the coach to say in a nice way what has happened. Ask how they choose the children for TOPS and say it isn't a problem that she doesn't do it but please could they not bring the class up to the children more than necessary. Say she wasn't aware until the coach brought it up and now feels left out. Also you mention it is not talked about as per owners request - this should apply to the coaches too!

 

[gymjoy]

I agree in some respects, but that's not really always true either. I know some girls who were always good who kept doing gymnastics until level 10. In some ways I'd guess most of the former level 10s and level 10s I know were "always pretty good" in some sense, although that doesn't mean they always got high scores and won. At the lower levels, being able to do skills is generally a better predictor of future success than being able to do routines. I have seen some girls who were barely capable of getting through routines early on, but were actually very good...the early scores didn't really reflect it.

But on the other hand, every level 10, at some point, had some challenge, and after some point, will continue to have that issue...whether it be beam series, bars dismount, connection tumbling, vault fears, etc. A lot of it really depends on personality. Also many kids with raw athleticism do well early on but then choose to devote their time to high level training in another sport. I don't see that as a problem...gymnastics is a good base for any potential athlete to do early on.

Gymdog, I think we are on the same page really. I said many and more likely because I have seen it go both ways. However, I have seen more of the girls chosen as early talents move on from gymnastics quicker than girls who struggled a bit in the compulsory levels. I think it is fine for them to move onto another sport if that is what they want to do, gymnastics only helps them. But many of these girls quit when things become harder and they stop winning as much. It is no longer fun for them, and that is fine too. I just think that parents new to this sport who have good, but struggling L4/5 dds, need to see that their children can be successful in this sport in the long run. Too much focus in the lower level and on the younger promising girls overshadows and, in the long run, discourages many fine young gymnast who are not on top of the podium as 6yo L4 or 7yo L6. Certainly there are those girls who started as young, talented gymnast and continued through to be successful L10 or elite gymnast. They managed to fight back when things became tough, probably because they loved the sport - not just the winning!!

 

[gymjoy]

According to those criteria my dd would not have shown long-term promise. She has always been strong and small (a gymnastics body), but she was not flexible, did not pick-up skills quickly, did not always take corrections well, and didn't have a focused personality until she was almost 10yo.

HHMMM...thankfully she's had a few coaches who saw the gymnast she could be, not just the gymnast she was at 7-8-9yo.

 

[momofthreegirls]

DD's gym just started a Tops program this year. It's an extra 2.5 hours of conditioning, plus they do a little uptraining. It began as an invite-only group. However, some parents starting complaining that it wasn't fair that some of the kids were getting those extra hours. Now the group is open to any pre-team or team kid. Most of the kids in the class are 6-9 years old, and in level 3 or 4. They will not actually test for Tops in the forseeable future though. The HC says the class serves mostly as a way to gain the strength needed for more advanced skills.

 

[gymnut1]

You see weirdly I have a problem with this. If they are not testing and it is just to gain conditioning for skills I think it should be part of your usual team program. Not something extra to pay for. It also sends the wrong message to kids that conditioning is optional in gymnastics. Um no. Conditioning is a crucial and basic part of gymnastics safety and technique.