Anon Tumbling progressions (offshoot from 2026-2030 CoP thread

[Anonymous (1ab1)]

Random hot take but I want a bridge kick over in the level 4 beam routine and PLEASE put a round-off back in level 2. PLEASE.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Random hot take but I want a bridge kick over in the level 4 beam routine and PLEASE put a round-off back in level 2. PLEASE.

Hotter take: I'd prefer no roundoff in compulsories, and no roundoff from a run until level 7

If I were writing the compulsory floor passes, here's what they'd be:

Level 3: Standing BHS (no rebound) and knee cartwheel step-in bwd roll
Level 4: Either cartwheel step-in BHS BHS or standing 3BHS (I go back and forth on which I like better), and FHS
Level 5: Cartwheel step-in BHS BHS back tuck or standing 3BHS back tuck (again, I go back and forth), option between front tuck/pike or bounder, and FHS stepout FHS
Level 6: RO-BHS-Salto with no run (meaning it has to come from either a fall-step or a knee lunge, or at most one step and hurdle) as a required element.

Then at level 7, once we've thoroughly established powerful and efficient ROBHS technique, we open the floodgates for big powerful back tumbling by finally letting them run into it.

 

[Anonymous (1ab1)]

Hotter take: I'd prefer no roundoff until level 5

I’m taken aback but not completely against it… what’s your reasoning. I feel like if they’re going to keep a roundoff backhand spring in level 3, there needs to be a roundoff in level 2

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I’m taken aback but not completely against it… what’s your reasoning. I feel like if they’re going to keep a roundoff backhand spring in level 3, there needs to be a roundoff in level 2

I edited my post to say what my preferred passes would be

Here's my reasoning:

1. A roundoff is a big ugly complicated frankenskill. It uses the entry of a front handspring, the support phase of a cartwheel step-in, and the landing of a backhandspring. Each of those skills is much less complex (not necessarily easier, just less complex), and if you teach all those skills first, then the athlete already has an intuitive feel for what a roundoff should feel like.

2. A roundoff that does not connect to a backhandspring is an incorrect roundoff (at least until you hit the upper levels, and start doing RO-3/2-punch front). The entire purpose of a roundoff is to turnover and generate power for a BHS, and you can't really do that without actually doing a BHS. Therefore, it shouldn't be in a compulsory routine in isolation. But also, standing BHS-BHS should come before RO-BHS, because the lack of long-axis turn makes it simpler and easier to train without going crooked. Once they understand the connection between BHS and BHS, turning that first BHS into RO is trivially easy, because they already know what the snap and connection should feel like.

3. Power and speed cover up mistakes. Doing skills slowly makes problems with technique much more obvious, and thus much easier to fix. Therefore, they should learn to accellerate within a series of backhandsprings from a stand before they should learn to add power with a run, a hurdle, and a roundoff. Delaying the addition of that speed and power as long as possible forces better technique.

Edit:
4. As an added bonus, working skills slowly with minimal power makes mental blocks less common, and easier to overcome when they to happen. Often the cause of mental blocks is that athletes feel like they have too much power and not enough control. So if they know how to do everything slowly, this is less of an issue.

 

[Anonymous (0aaa)]

Hotter take: I'd prefer no roundoff in compulsories

If I were writing the compulsory floor passes, here's what they'd be:

Level 3: Standing BHS and cartwheel step-in bwd roll
Level 4: cartwheel step-in BHS BHS and FHS
Level 5: Cartwheel step-in BHS BHS back tuck, option between front tuck/pike or bounder, and FHS stepout FHS
Level 6: RO-BHS-Salto with no run (meaning it has to come from either a fall-step or a knee lunge) as a required element

Sounds like a good way to convince gyms to drop compulsories and switch to Exel for the lower levels!

 

[Anonymous (6e42)]

OMG new music would be amazing!!! I can’t keep listening to hours a week of the clown music…

Random hot take but I want a bridge kick over in the level 4 beam routine and PLEASE put a round-off back in level 2. PLEASE.

I agree!!

 

[Anonymous (6e42)]

I edited my post to say what my preferred passes would be

Here's my reasoning:

1. A roundoff is a big ugly complicated frankenskill. It uses the entry of a front handspring, the support phase of a cartwheel step-in, and the landing of a backhandspring. Each of those skills is much less complex (not necessarily easier, just less complex), and if you teach all those skills first, then the athlete already has an intuitive feel for what a roundoff should feel like.

2. A roundoff that does not connect to a backhandspring is an incorrect roundoff (at least until you hit the upper levels, and start doing RO-3/2-punch front). The entire purpose of a roundoff is to turnover and generate power for a BHS, and you can't really do that without actually doing a BHS. Therefore, it shouldn't be in a compulsory routine in isolation. But also, standing BHS-BHS should come before RO-BHS, because the lack of long-axis turn makes it simpler and easier to train without going crooked. Once they understand the connection between BHS and BHS, turning that first BHS into RO is trivially easy, because they already know what the snap and connection should feel like.

3. Power and speed cover up mistakes. Doing skills slowly makes mistakes much more obvious, and forces much better technique. Therefore, they should learn to accellerate within a series of backhandsprings from a stand before they should learn to add power with a run, a hurdle, and a roundoff. Delaying the addition of that speed and power as long as possible forces better technique.

Gymnastics already demands so much perfection. Why do we need more pressure on the gymnasts to be even MORE perfect?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Sounds like a good way to convince gyms to drop compulsories and switch to Exel for the lower levels!

Funny enough, I think the strongest argument for Xcel over compulsories is that it would make it possible to introduce roundoffs to routines much later.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Gymnastics already demands so much perfection. Why do we need more pressure on the gymnasts to be even MORE perfect?

Aiming for perfection is literally my job as a coach. Insisting on perfection at the lower levels makes the upper levels much easier, safer, and more consistent. It also allows much faster progress once those basics are set in place.

This isn't just theoretical, by the way; last time I was a compulsory head coach, I insisted on standing BHS before roundoff, standing 2BHS before ROBHS, and back salto development from standing 3BHS (supplemented by lots of trampoline work). Result: most of my girls could do standing 3BHS+tuck by the end of L4 season, and my 5s were working layouts and starting on twisting.

 

[Dahlialover]

Insisting on perfection at the lower levels makes the upper levels much easier, safer, and more consistent. Aiming for perfection is literally my job as a coach.

This isn't just theoretical, by the way; last time I was a compulsory head coach, I insisted on standing BHS before roundoff and standing 2BHS before ROBHS. Result: almost all of my girls could do standing 3BHS+tuck by the end of L4 season, and my 5s were working layouts and starting on twisting.

That’s impressive. I think a lot of kids would really struggle with such a big increase in the difficulty of the tumbling. You must be really good at coaching standing back handsprings!

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

That’s impressive. I think a lot of kids would really struggle with such a big increase in the difficulty of the tumbling. You must be really good at coaching standing back handsprings!

I can't take all the credit; my preteam coaches at that gym were brilliant. They laid a very solid foundation of strength and basic shapes, which made my job much easier.

But with that said, I do think I've got the progression from single standing BHS to multiple BHS and then to back saltos more or less solved. For most skills, I'm updating and tweaking my methods and progressions and cues every year, but for this section of the back tumbling progression, I've been using the same approach for 12ish years, and haven't found any ways to significantly improve it in that time.

(I might split some of this off into a separate thread for back tumbling progressions when I get home tonight)

 

[Anonymous (4a0d)]

Funny enough, I think the strongest argument for Xcel over compulsories is that it would make it possible to introduce roundoffs to routines much later.

What passes would you use for each Xcel level?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

What passes would you use for each Xcel level?

Last time I was in a position to be setting progressions for an Xcel-equivalent group was close to 15 years ago, so I'd have to take some time to get a solid handle on the current Xcel rules before answering this with any real confidence. But having made that disclaimer, I'd probably aim for something along the lines of...

Bronze: Knee lunge carthweel step-in bwd roll and... idunno, maybe handstand forward roll carthweel?

Silver: standing BHS (no rebound) bwd roll or standing 2BHS, and FHS

Gold: either standing 3BHS or knee cartwheel step-in 2BHS for a back pass. Ideally either punch bounder or FHS-stepout FHS for a second pass.

Plat: Knee cartwheel step-in 2BHS tuck/pike/lay, or standing 3BHS tuck/pike/lay. For second pass, FHS-bounder or punch FLO would be ideal, but those might be too hard for plat. There are a lot of possible options for a front pass (one of the more outside-the-box ones that I really like is punch front punch bounder).

Diamond: RO BHS back pike, layout, or 1/1 (side note: I absolutely love a good T&T-style back pike-open; really beautiful, useful, and underappreciated skill imo). FHS-FLO or punch FLO-front tuck/pike would be awesome, but there is a lot of variance in how fast kids pick up front connections and a lot of viable fallback options.

 

[Anonymous (439b)]

I like your approach Geoffrey. We have that big problem in my country, where they have compulsories with round off+jump+backward roll/back roll HS, I'd rather do the cartwheel step in.
I usually barely work that though and focus on building the round off back handspring, and practice the compulsory pass only some weeks before meets.
I also always teach from step, not a run.
I've also read from some coaches, that most young kids are not strong enough to do a good round off BHS on the real floor until about 8 (there are exceptions of course).

In the good side of things, we have a FHS bounder in one of our compulsories too. It is hard, yes, harder for many than the FHS tuck, but I like it to make them generate power going forwards.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I'm with you on FHS bounder. In the abstract, it should reinforce and exaggerate everything needed for strong front tumbling; in practice, by the time they have a good FHS bounder, they probably already have all the skills it's supposed to lead up to.

I'm a big fan of punch bounder as a lead in to front layouts, and I love love LOVE bounder series on tumbletrak.

 

[raenndrops]

3. Power and speed cover up mistakes. Doing skills slowly makes problems with technique much more obvious, and thus much easier to fix. Therefore, they should learn to accellerate within a series of backhandsprings from a stand before they should learn to add power with a run, a hurdle, and a roundoff. Delaying the addition of that speed and power as long as possible forces better technique.

I remember back in OLD Level 4 when the ROBHS was limited to 3 steps into the roundoff. I hated when they got rid of the step limit, and little girls were running half-way across the floor into their roundoffs. YG was in that level before and after the change, but she kept the 3 steps - hurdle - roundoff BHS.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Imo there are very very few cases where an athlete should run more than 3 steps. It's really just niche top-level passes, such as doing a big skill from just a punch.