WAG US vs Australia

[OzZee]

Hi, I've often wondered about the differences between the US and Australian training and usually thought the US was better. I hate the having to choose at 5 to join an IDP stream if you want to take the chance of becoming an elite (a decision we've just had to make with my youngest).
I also thought I preferred the US system of not competing until level 4 and working on skills rather than spending a year practicing a basic lot of routines.
My older kids aren't highly competitive and prefer skills to competitions so this would have suited them much better.
But I was reading a thread about hours and there seems to be a number of 5/6 year olds training 10 hours or so a week and doing 3/4 hour training sessions?
Is this the norm?
I'd always been amazed by these 5/6 year olds doing ro bhs etc, but guess the type of training makes that possible (here most gyms won't even do bridges with under 5's)


Here if you start at say 4 you would do 1-2 years in a rec progamme at an hour a week (at 4 this would be kindergym) then a year of a pre levels programme (say 2-4 hours a week training), then you would compete level 1 (5-6 hours a week training) at 6-9 years old. You can't compete before the calendar year in which you turn 6 (so some may be 5 at there first competition if their birthday is early in the year).
Most, however, would do prelevels at 5 - not many gyms offer a non kindergym class for kids not at school, so not many compete at 5 turning 6.
And (certainly in NSW) this seems to be common as the largest number of Level 1 (ndp) kids are intermediates, so turning 8 or 9 in the calendar year.
But that means the youngest a level 4 can be (if they compete levels 1-3 which everyone seems to) is turning 9, with most being turning 11-12.
So most kids wouldn't be doing 3 hour sessions until 8 or much older.


So now I'm not sure which system I prefer. I guess they both have good and bad points.
Questions, how many hours at young ages do your kids train and where?

 

[Quadqueen]

Hi, I've often wondered about the differences between the US and Australian training and usually thought the US was better. I hate the having to choose at 5 to join an IDP stream if you want to take the chance of becoming an elite (a decision we've just had to make with my youngest).
I also thought I preferred the US system of not competing until level 4 and working on skills rather than spending a year practicing a basic lot of routines.
My older kids aren't highly competitive and prefer skills to competitions so this would have suited them much better.
But I was reading a thread about hours and there seems to be a number of 5/6 year olds training 10 hours or so a week and doing 3/4 hour training sessions?
Is this the norm?
I'd always been amazed by these 5/6 year olds doing ro bhs etc, but guess the type of training makes that possible (here most gyms won't even do bridges with under 5's)


Here if you start at say 4 you would do 1-2 years in a rec progamme at an hour a week (at 4 this would be kindergym) then a year of a pre levels programme (say 2-4 hours a week training), then you would compete level 1 (5-6 hours a week training) at 6-9 years old. You can't compete before the calendar year in which you turn 6 (so some may be 5 at there first competition if their birthday is early in the year).
Most, however, would do prelevels at 5 - not many gyms offer a non kindergym class for kids not at school, so not many compete at 5 turning 6.
And (certainly in NSW) this seems to be common as the largest number of Level 1 (ndp) kids are intermediates, so turning 8 or 9 in the calendar year.
But that means the youngest a level 4 can be (if they compete levels 1-3 which everyone seems to) is turning 9, with most being turning 11-12.
So most kids wouldn't be doing 3 hour sessions until 8 or much older.


So now I'm not sure which system I prefer. I guess they both have good and bad points.
Questions, how many hours at young ages do your kids train and where?

No, I don't think it is common here for 5/6 year olds to be training 10 hours a week. At 6 years old and level 3, my DD did 4 hours a week. Currently, at L6, she does 12 hours a week (and her gym never increases its hours from there, which I know could be a problem down the road if she wants to be a successful optional gymnast).

 

[Moxiegrl83]

My 5 yr old is on a L3 pre-team with ages 5-8, with all but the youngest 3 competing this season. Our littlest ones aren't quite ready, and that's fine because they will be competing next season at the new L3, so skills seem to be more their focus. They go M-W-F, for 2 hour classes. Next year, they will probably go 3 days as well, but for 3 hours instead of 2. Each level increases their hours slightly.

 

[Amusibus]

My daughter is 6 1/2, on a pre- team that does not compete, and does three hour sessions, three times a week.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Well I am in Australia. There are benefits to both the USA system and the Australian system.

Aussie kids are generally older when they do their levels. Level 1 age averages 5-7 in qld, and yes level 4's are usually between 8-12. Where as though in the USA they are much younger as they don't spend the years competing level s 1-3.

Aussie kids also tend to train more hours at the lower levels. Average for a level 1 is 4-6 hours a week. Level 2 6-8 hours and week and level 3 9-12 hours a week, level 4 14-6 hours a week. Us average much lower hours at these levels and build the kids up at the higher levels.

but look in the average Australian gym and you see see a tonne of level 1-3's, a handful of level 4-6's and a sprinkling of level 7-10's if any at all. Our kids spend their top developmental years where they should be learning their more advanced skills competing level 3 12 hours a week.

From what I have seen our scoring system is much more difficult too. Our kids need full 180 degree split leaps on floor by level 4, on beam by level 5 for example and 135 degree split jumps on beam by level 3 for example. We use the international scoring system with a full mark lost for a fall, 0.5 for bent legs and so on.

our competitions also give far less awards, to give out awards to 50% is considered ridiculous, and they normally give the top 6 only no matter how big the divisions are. And the divisions are big, we don't split the ages up all over the place like in the US. Often just 1 split if any, depending on what state you are in.

all this equates to less longevity in the gym, many gyms have no gymnasts over the age of 12!

The other thing the US has over us is that they have somewhere to go in their levels system. In Australia you go level 1-10 then quit. In the US, elite is a level after level 10. While in Australia elite kids are chosen at 5-7 years of age and trained in a separate stream at one of a few elite training centre's around the country. The US also have college gymnastics which is very popular, even televised, and the chance to go to college on a scholarship. These things keep kids in the gym longer. Most will have no more chance of making elite that our kids do, but the possibility of elite and college dangling at the end of the gymnastics journey help teens and parents to stick to it.
phowever, having said that our countries are different and what works in the US would not necessarily work in Australia. Our population is far lower, we don't have the people power or the facilities to have elites and senior gymnasts in every gym in the country. We have only a handful of coaches in the country with the skills to take kids to the international level. We need to bring our most talented gymnasts together to train under them.

also most gyms in the US are privately run organisations. Not in Australia. Only a very small number are privately owned, the rest are run by not for profit organisations. In private gyms, equipment and the like are bought out of the fees. But in not for profit gyms (which almost all of ours are) equipment is brought by government grants. Fee's are subsidised, and rent is lower so class fees are quite cheap, and its hard for the not for profit gyms to compete cost wise and keep their heads above water. The needs of our gyms are very different.

our system does very well for us as a country. We have a population of just 20 million, as opposed to the US's 350 million. To have our gymnasts even qualify to take a team to the Olympics is outstanding.

also every country has a different philosophy. In countries like Russia and Rumania, gymnastics is a revered sport, everyone gets behind the gymnasts. Gymnastics is publisized more in the USA than in Australia too. In Australia swimming is the sport. All kids take swimming lessons, from as young as a few days old, all schools have pools, swimming is a compulsory part of the school curriculum, parents are subsidised to have their toddlers swim and every second family have a pool. This culture allows us to excel in swimming. Gymnastics does not fit the same way into our culture. Which can impede our success.

 

[Kiwi]

It's the same in NZ, only even more so. Sports funding here goes only to swimming, cycling and rowing. With only 4 million people in the whole country, gymnastics is a tiny tiny sport. Gyms here are run by non-profit organisations and survive on grants. I think if they were run for profit, virtually nobody would be able to afford the fees.

Yes, I'm always amazed reading here about the 5 year old level 4s in the US. My DD is in step 4, which I think is similar to level 4. She is 9 and this is a normal age for step 4, I would say most are between 8 and 12. She trains 9 hours per week. But some gyms here also use the IDP system - those girls are younger, training much longer hours and more advanced skills. We have some 8 year olds in IDP3, this is equivalent to about step 6. I don't know how many hours a week they do, I would guess at least 16.

 

[GymBee97]

Alot will depend on where you live what the gymnastics is like. In my are L1 - L3 are not competed at all and are used as "Preteam" levels with kids starting as young as 3yo. When they turn 6yo they should be at L4 and would start competing. No one can compete until they turn 6yo. that doesn't mean all Pre team start at 3yo I've seen them alot older too. but those are the levels where they learn their basic skills and they will usually do an exhibition at the gyms recitle day in the spring and a "fun meet" with some of the local gyms with the other Pre Teams.

My Experience - My DD started at 4yo on the pre team and at L1 did 2 days a week for 2 hours a day, L2 went to 3 days a week for 2 hours a day L3 and L4 went to 3 days a week for 3 hours a day. L5 was 4 days a week for 3 hours a day, L6 4 days a week for 3 hours a day with an optional extra day on Saturday for 3 hours (most went to that). L7 and above 4 days a week 4 hours a day with an optional extra day which most do.

There are gyms out there that do more hours and gyms that do less.

 

[OzZee]

Aussie Coach do you not think that if we didn't compete Lvls 1-3 and worked on skills and moving the kids up quicker we would retain more gymnasts at higher levels. I totally agree at all the gyms around here (private and ymca/rsl based, we are actually at a private gym) they struggle to retain gymnasts once they reach high school and therefore many past around level 4/6. (though I feel that rhythmic retains the higher level gymnasts better - this is most likely due to it mostly being within the private school sector and within the schools but also wonder if having lvl 1-3 as more introductory levels helps - they only compete them all if required and usually only for the younger starters).

And yes having something like the hope of a college scholarship must certainly retain many athletes, there is nothing to keep Australian gymnasts competing other than the love of the sport.

With regard elite though there is little/no movement of gymnasts from non elite to elite clubs so how does limiting elite to the few that find their way to one of the few clubs offering IDP help Australia's elite gymnastics. There are many many very talented kids competing ndp or even state stream programs or recreational who due to locality/knowledge will never have the chance of competing elite.
Asking parents/children to choose to commit to an elite program at 4-6 is to me ludicrous. It's true gymnastics isn't a big sport in Australia (though I disagree that everyone learns to swim, even in Sydney there are many many kids who don't learn, and the two weeks a year of school swimming does not suffice) and therefore families are even less likely to throw in their all for gymnastics at that age - but it's also still only going to happen if you have stumbled upon starting at one of the very few elite gyms.

btw "parents are subsidised to have their toddlers swim" - are they really in qld? Wow wish someone had brought that idea in in NSW - 3 kids and swimming lessons at $18+ a 1/2 per week has been crippling.

 

[Aussie_coach]

I do feel that if we didn't compete levels 1-3 we would retain gymnasts at a higher level, we just have them spend way too long training these lower levels, and they are as you say in high school by the time they get to the intermediate levels.

our gymnasts hit high school and are about level 5 or 6 on average and its all just too much, in the US they are at a higher level and it doesn't feel like they have quite as far to go, they want to see the commitment they have made through.

but to not compete level 1-3 when all the other gyms do can put you at a disadvantage.

in QLD, the gyms that retain the gymnasts in level 7-10 are also attached to private schools, even the top gyms with wonderful coaches struggle at keeping high level gymnasts because there is simply not enough hours in the day. When you add travel to and from high school, homework, high school expectations and so on up, there is not time for 20 hours a week in the gym unless its on campus.

there are massive problems with our IDP system, naturally clubs don't want to hand their best gymnasts onto high performance centre's, they want to keep them in their gyms winning titles, and paying fee's. But by doing this they are also stopping their athletes from having the chance to compete internationally. But a syste, like they have in the US for elite just would not work here, we just don't have enough coaches capable of producing international standard gymnastics. We need a workable way of bringing the top kids to the top coaches.

the swimming thing is full on in QLD, I have never in my life even heard of a normal healthy kid not being able to swim by school age, kids will start as babies. There are swimming schools everywhere, drowning is actually the leading cause of death in QLD for children aged 1-4, so most parents consider themselves neglectful if their kids can't swim.

 

[Kiwi]

I think the problem is that the kids spend way too long in levels 1 to 3 (or steps 1 to 3 here). A whole year at level 1, then a whole year at level 2, they could probably combine these into one year. In the STEPS program there is the option to start kids at step 2 missing out step 1. Starting at step1 is okay for 5 year olds, but at our gym we had some late starters, they were 7 and they started in step 1. They scored quite well in the competitions (unlike the 5 year olds) but they hardly have any skills yet, and now they are 8 and only in step2. I think they should have started them at step 2. I know of two 9 year olds at another gym who were put into step 3 for training but then were not allowed to compete (presumably because they hadn't passed step 1 or 2) which was crazy because they were quite capable. I understand the rationale of making sure kids have good basics, but I feel like we are holding kids back by keeping them in the low levels for so long perfecting very basic skills (especially for things like leg angles on split leaps). Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Part of the problem with the low levels (or steps) is that many coaches only teach what is required for the routines, it is okay to compete those levels but coaches need to be developing the skills at the same time. Gymnasts competing in level one should still be doing progressions for their kips, flips and saltos etc...
It is very clear which clubs have programs/expectations in place for the development of the low level gymnasts.


Aussie Coach is Delta part of a school? they seem to run a strong program that maintains gymnasts at the higher levels.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Yes Delta is at a school. They have two venue's their Delta Brisbane club is based at Clayfield college, and Delta Gold Coast is at st Hilda's college.

the girls even have the option of doing some gym training in their school hours and they have more level 7-10 gymnasts than the rest of the state put together.

 

[sally]

My dd did both idp and levels. I have to say that I think Made a bad choice as I pulled her out of the idp program as I wasn't happy with the place that she was out.
when she changed clubs she had skills about level 4/5 and 6 as the idp as different set of skills they are ahead in some things but not in other. However in the 6 months my dd did levels she did not learn anything new and the club had her in such a low level which is all about the winning and not trying to improve skill development which I feel at 8 is more important then winning. So my dd hated it and quit.

So my thing is if your child learns fast and enjoys learning new skills then competing then the idp is the way to go now. However in the state I am in now they are not taking anybody until the age of 9 and 10