WAG What to do with a problem child

[munchkin3]

I hate writing about 'problem children' because I really do believe that ALL kids are good and sweet, BUT,
There is a girl on out team who is about 8, and she has major behavior problems which not only affect the class, but really exhaust the coaches. She argues with correction, makes faces at the coaches, complains, and generally wants to do everything her way. ( yes, she has all the standard ADHD, only child, etc.)
Worse, I really think her mom doesn't see it. She thinks one coach is very bad, and has mental problems and hates her child. This coach is very good, and although maybe she could do things a bit differently, she IS trying but I think she ran out of patience for this child. The Mom even went into the gym one day to change settings and mats and stuff (!!!!!)

I feel for the child, because I really think she is getting very bad messages from her mother about this coach. I told her nicely that if she says bad things to her DD about the coach, she is taking away all the authority to teach. She stared at me with a blank face. The girl just wants to do gymnastics. (her way)

This is not public school where ALL kids must be taught no matter who or what, this is a gym where certain behavior is EXPECTED. I consider myself very patient, but I would have send this family packing.
This is SOOOOO not fair to the other hard working girls.

 

[Sasha]

Curious, what is each coach's response to her behavior? For example, when she argues, complains or makes a rude face, is there any consequence? Is it consistent each time and consistent between coaches? For 'normal' kids at least, that's paramount to successful behavior shaping.... If coaches intermittently ignore the behaviors or become emotionally charged by them, then that typically 'feeds' further acting out behavior as it gives her the power to control others' emotions. And if it is sometimes ignored, sometimes not, that's also 'rewarding' the behavior as it becomes like a gambling game - keep playing the game (misbehaving) until you get the effect/attention you wanted...

As for the ADHD aspect... maybe some parents of ADHD kids here can help with any tactics that work best (or don't work at all) with children suffering with that condition(?). I'm no authority there, but recognize that this should be taken into consideration when applying a specific discipline/rewards strategy...

The mom - yikes - moving mats? Oy.

 

[munchkin3]

I think they are in the ignore camp. I am not in there but that's what it looks like. She gets ignored a lot. Sad.
My DS is ADHD. Medication has worked wonders for him. I told Mom that a while back but I don't think she is the Medication type. I think it would help her daughter a great deal, but what is good for DS may not be for her family so.....?
Bottom line, ADHD kids are VERY tiring to the adults dealing with them. In this case, it is affecting the whole team.

BTW, the only child comment was not meant to be negative, just that Mom is there 100% of the time.

 

[Sasha]

Hmm, yeah, I'm guessing the ignore method + the ADHD factor is not going to produce the most positive results for her or the team. Her frustration, coupled with essentially 'getting away with' the behaviors (since there was no direct consequence), will likely just continue to produce more unwanted behavior. It's my (layperson's) understanding that ADHD kids benefit from even more emphasis on clear, consistent consequences for unwanted behaviors, as well as exaggerated praise for even small good behaviors, not less than 'normal' kids. Coaches are really forced to play therapist here (more than usual), and that's a tall order for anyone. It seems like one of two things will happen, either
1) Coaches all get together, consult with someone who understands discipline needs for this special child (and possibly other kids who may join at some point with similar needs), and agree to consistently implement a strategy to at least attempt to best help the child and team. If it still doesn't improve things, then it might be time to tell the mom you're sadly not equipped to handle her very special psychological needs despite best efforts.... or
2)The status quo continues, and escalates, until some of the 'good' kids leave, and who knows what other damage ensues from hover-mom.

I feel sad for all involved. It raises a larger question of preparedness of coaches for kids with special psychological needs, and how far a gym could/should be expected to go to accommodate a child with more severe needs in a very demanding team environment.

 

[gwenmom]

DD (gymnast) is ADHD and DS (non-gymnast) is ADD. That said, it is NOT an excuse for this type of behavior. DD would NEVER roll her eyes at a coach. You know why? Because she knows the minute she did I would have her butt out of that gym so fast her head would be spinning. And she would not be going back until she proved she could act appropriately and wrote a formal apology letter.

To many parents use ADHD as an excuse for misbehavior. My children know what is correct behavior. Their condition occasionally makes them appear as if they don't, ie zoning out, fidigiting, blurting out answers before the entire question is asked, jumping around, but if you call them on it, they stop for as long as they can.

It sounds to me like the child is learning disrespectful behavior from her parents. If this child loves gymnastics, then I would suggest either peer pressure "we can not move onto the next thing until everyone is ready." Do not call the child out specifically, embarassing will not help. Or time out.

I agree that ADHD can be very tiring. When DD is on her 300th handstand in the last hour with her feet infront of the TV it gets old. And don't get me started on homework.

What kind of class is she in? Team? Rec? ADHD kids get bored very quickly, not bored actually, but they take in in about 2 seconds what may take another child 2 minutes to comprehend/process.

 

[purpleleomom]

My daughter is also 8, an only child, and has ADHD. I cringed reading this hoping it wasn't her coach writing, but I've never gone out to move equipment, so I think I'm safe.

Unfortunately my experience with ADHD dates back only as far as our experience with gymnastics (i.e. about 6 months). I put her in gym because she clearly needed a physical outlet, and she loved it from the first class. We added therapy, mostly coaching for my husband and me to implement new routines around the house and learn how to deal with some of her behaviors. Eventually we added medication, and, while she is not a brand new child, it has helped a lot. Most of the medication benefit is seen at school with improved grades, better impulse control, and the ability to filter out distractions. So that's our background.

Did the mom offer that this child has ADHD or is the coach making this assumption? If the family did not inform the gym she has ADHD, I would be careful bringing that up because there is a fair amount of stigma and baggage associated with the disease. I would focus on the behaviors. As a mom, I would appreciate a coach coming to me to inform me that my daughter's behavior is not appropriate for the class. A coach should certainly have the authority to apply some type of discipline in class, but if that is ineffective, the parent should step in (figuratively not literally into the gym) with the expectation that their child respects their coach and other kids.

If this child is on team, the expectations are greater. I tell my daughter (who wants to be on team) that team is a privilege for those kids who work hard and respect their coaches. The coach is within their right to tell the mom and daughter that her behavior in class is not meeting the expectations of the team and what the consequences are for continuing the behavior.

This is hard because I truly sympathize with the child, but sometimes the best gift you can give a kid is a lesson in consequences. Eight is old enough to know how to behave, with or without ADHD.

All that said, one thing that helps my daughter stay focused in gym is when she is "busy." I don't care for classes where there is a lot of standing around waiting turns. I know that is required sometimes, but it could indicate that the group is too big or they don't have enough stations (i.e. not every class is the right fit for every kid). Could they challenge her to see how many pushups she can do in between turns or something to that effect? Making it a fun game could help.

As for the arguing with corrections and making faces, I would, again, tell the mother and child that is not tolerated and ask the kid to leave class until they are ready to learn.

Another thought - can they ask the mom not to stay? Sometimes kids act worse around their parents than they do other authority figures.

Sorry for all the rambling. This is something I worry about a lot. I would be horrified if my daughter behaved like that in gymnastics, and even more so if they didn't tell me.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

If the mom is unwilling to help and is undermining the coach then she should not be on team. Because by definition a team is a group of organized people who work together, not against each other... Aside from that VALID point, this little kid is just going to spread her attitude to the rest of the team and consume energy. ADHD is no excuse for being a brat. So tell both of them this today, not tomorrow, don't have a meeting over it, just pull the trigger. " Straighten up or you will not be asked to return to our team when season is over ". And if season is over then give them 2 weeks to straighten out or they are gone, after that she will be on probation. Each year I do not extend an invitation to rejoin our team for the next season to an average of one child from our team for various reasons, the kids know this, it works....

 

[Aussie_coach]

Really difficult kids generally respond well to very clear expectations and consistent consequences. Make sure she understands exactly what you expect from her and if she misbehaves give her one warning followed by a time out for a brief period.

Do this every time she misbehaves, at first she may spend. Ore time in time out than in the gym, but this is not a bad thing. If it takes a little while to get the idea into her head that you won't allow the bad behaviour then it's better to spend a few weeks sitting out more than training because in the long term her training will be very much improved as a result.

Time out will probably be very effective if she has ADHD because they have a low tolerance for boredom, they will become bored very quickly and want to join back in.

If the Mother complains simply state that this is how you do things in the gym and if she doesn't like it she is free to leave. It can help if all the coaches do the same discipline method and the same discipline is expected for all the kids, this way the parent can't say a particular coach is picking on her child or that her child is being singled out,

If the aren't does complain about a specific coach, I would state that the coach cares enough about the child to out the discipline in place to help her establish the behaviour patterns she needs to become a better gymnast.

 

[Gymsanity]

First, let's be clear 'She argues with correction, makes faces at the coaches, complains, and generally wants to do everything her way. ( yes, she has all the standard ADHD, only child, etc.)' Sorry, but that's not ADHD or only child, that's bad parenting, plain and simple! Yes, ADHD kids are more challenging to raise/coach, but that should never be used as an excuse for bad, rude, mean, or otherwise inappropriate behavior. Period. Forget the ADHD, what would you do with any other child doing that? Well, that's what you do with this one! Needs to be made clear to mom and daughter that's the way things work around there. It has to be your way or the highway, or you stand to lose far more than just that one child. I've had that conversation more times than I care to recount, but I can tell you 95% of the times it went great. The parents were generally appreciative of the fact that someone was willing to work with, discipline, and generally help socialize their child. If that doesn't suit them, then I encourage them to leave. Some of my best kids were brought to me because they were told they had ADHD. Turns out they had just never met me, and spent 4 hours a day 6 days a week in my gym!

 

[iwannacoach]

.....she knows the minute she did I would have her butt out of that gym so fast her head would be spinning.....

This is great way to get the attention you want from an adhd/add kid. It's not that they can't pay attention, but more a case of miss directed attention. They bounce quickly from one stimulation to the other and when they bounce upon something interesting to analyse or do (very bright kids).... well they are nearly lost to the world. Gwenmom seems to have come to the realization that it falls to her to make "staying within the lines" become her child's priority issue, because going beyond certain boundaries will result in a painful consequence like losing gym time.

Rationalizing with an adhd kid? Lot's of luck! The first words out of your mouth will deliver them a prompt to focus on the meaning of one word or the other and then drift off into something associated with that word, and look there's a bottle cap across the street..... zip and back before you have a chance to stop them.

Keeping these kids on track is very trying, but dependable consequences up to the edge of societal norms is the most merciful approach as it focuses them. With that focus, motivated by their own desire to keep something they love doing, owning, or using, they avoid being constantly berated for their behavior and feeling cast out and maligned. Yeah, you'll see pita and angry adhd kids, but wouldn't anyone end up angry when treated the way these kids are often treated. Really, for them, there's no normal for them to use to stay connected with with the people around them.

If you see or hear a child diagnosed with adhd being scolded, please ask the scolder if they also scold people in wheelchairs for taking too long to get through a spring loaded swinging door. Both are the same, a condition or disability neither wishes to have.

I think it's fair to say that a gym club should either come up with a class designed for these kids, or tell their parents they should come back when the child settles down, or tolerate the behavior while putting energy into keeping everyone safe.

 

[munchkin3]

I myself have 1 kid with ADHD, and one with ADD and I think what makes me so upset is that the mom is not handling it.
Instead of doing things to help her child OUT of the gym, she brings her TO gym because it is good for her. But then when her kid misbehaves, she blames the coaches.

Like I said, kids with ADD are very tiring to the surrounding people. As a result, they tend to 'not be liked' and thus they do not advance as well as normal kids, or kids that have had intervention (medical or psychological). I have explained this to the mom several times but she wants the world to adjust to her child. The world will not wait for her, nor should the coaches who have 100 other kids to coach. Eventually she will be so unhappy, she will have to leave. Or the staff will meet and come up with rigid rules.

I think the coaches or any teacher do have the responsibility to teach all kids, even the difficult ones. But this only works if the parents are on the same page. This one is in a different book. I feel for her though as I know she just loves her DD and wants the best for her.

A doctor, and some counseling would be best.

 

[LucyTRA]

There are a couple of ways of dealing with this situation, but only really one that doesn't involve throwing the child out of the class.

it sounds as though the coaches as this gym could have some extra help to understand how this child's ADHD affects her. Getting mom involved so that she can explain to everyone may well make her feel included and as though positive action is being taken, and stop her from blaming the coaches. When this child (or any child, really) misbehaves, there could be lots of reasons for it. In a sports setting, these reasons are most likely to be boredom/distraction, or lack of confidence.

If a child is bored or distracted (as children with ADHD become much quicker - imagine a world where everything is super bright and intense and just AMAZING and you want to explore all of it RIGHT NOW because it's so cool) then they may do things impulsively to investigate or entertain themselves. If that happens, they need to be re-oriented into the activity and encouraged to take an active role - praise should be given when they do.

if a child lacks confidence, it can stop them from attempting what they have been told to do - refusing to take corrections is a good example - because if they try (or look like they are trying) really hard, and it doesnt go right, then they have to confront the fact that they are not good at it, and may lose status among their peers. In this case, they need to be encouraged and told that they are good at what they are doing, and learn to laugh at themselves. When I come across children like this, I will get the entire group to do whatever it is in the most ridiculous manner possible, and laugh with each other about it. Then, when they come to try for real, they are less scared because they know it doesn't really matter - they aren't going to do it worse than they just did.

When I have to deal with kids with ADHD in a group, I ensure that there is no waiting time, ever. If they have to wait to get on the trampolines, then I keep one or two as spotters, and get them to watch the gymnast and report back to me things like if toes were pointed etc. The others go to a side activity such as skipping or wall circles and team activities. I offer lots of encouragement and praise and encourage them to have fun. This child is eight. If she feels that the coaches don't want her there, she will act up more as a way of protecting her self esteem.

Good luck and I hope you didn't loose the will to live before you got to the end!

 

[Amusibus]

I am not clear on something- OP, are you this child's coach, or are you the parent of another girl in the group?

I have 2 ADHD girls. My feeling is
medicating her would solve the majority of these problems. If this is not possible, next would be to never let this child get bored. Stations, no down time. Another thing that is HUGE for adhd kids : you cannot give multi-step instructions. One direction/correction at a time. Nothing else will be heard. Expect to have to repeat directions when her turn comes. She will not know what to do, don't be angry at this, this is normal adhd behavior, just repeat the direction calmly.

Reading over some of the comments here, some things come to mind:

-Does this child want to do gymnastics? Maybe it's mom's idea.

- ADHD is genetic. Mom probably has it too (think impulse control -going onto gym floor).

- Naughty behavior does not necessarily equal bad parenting.

-Positive reinforcement will be vastly more effective than negative.

- Concrete rewards such as sticker charts or small prizes are very effective to motivate adhd kids. They cannot keep long-term rewards (moving up, good scores, not being kicked off team, etc) in mind. They are not capable of motivating beyond the immediate, here-and-now, tangible reward.

-To help them gain confidence and thus intrunsic motivation,

 

[Amusibus]

It deleted the rest of my post ....

I was going to say, to help the kid gain intrinsic motivation, praise for things, have her demonstrate a skill to the group she does well, praising for proper form etc. Or have a little contest she can win, maybe rope climbing, running, etc. Feeling confident and happy, she will act up less and pay attention more.

Ultimately the best efforts may still fail. I hope something we have said here can help you help this kid. It's a tough situation.

 

[munchkin3]

I am a parent Amusibus. I just really get upset to see the chaotic environment during team practice. It is a small team so when the 30 team boys and girls are working, and there is one kid spazzing out every night, and the coaches are getting stressed, it ruins the energy. My kids have been complaining about it for months.

Apparently there was a coaches meeting so we will see what happens. If the coaches cant ALL agree on how to handle any difficult child then.....it will continue happening.

As I tell my kids, just because you are 'good' at gymnastics, doesn't mean you deserve to be on team. Team is a priviledge, and you earn it by being hard working, disciplined and a good team participant.
I hope the coaches can prove THIS to the team this by doing!

 

[skschlag]

I hope they can too. my son was like that in a lot of ways and I am so glad that the coach didn't give up on him. (well, minus the disrespectful behaviors.) he was hyper, spazzy, unable to focus. But this has been the best thing for him. I hope they can do that for this girl as well. and keep everyone learning!