WAG Whistleblowing

[Solid444]

Problem is, as coaches, we have to put our hands on the kids. We spot them, catch them, sometimes have to grab them and pull them out of the way of being landed on, fix their shapes etc. Accidents happen, we might accidentally touch them in an uncomfortable spot, when we spot. We do our utmost to ensure we don’t, we apologise if we do but it happens to all of us.

As I am a female coach, people seem to understand that such accidents happen. Male coaches are often victim to of greater criticism in this regard.

Problem is, as coaches, we have to put our hands on the kids. We spot them, catch them, sometimes have to grab them and pull them out of the way of being landed on, fix their shapes etc. Accidents happen, we might accidentally touch them in an uncomfortable spot, when we spot. We do our utmost to ensure we don’t, we apologise if we do but it happens to all of us.

As I am a female coach, people seem to understand that such accidents happen. Male coaches are often victim to of greater criticism in this regard.

I was saying if I a coach ever physically abused my DDs such as Slapping them, pulling hair, pushing them; I would immediately file a police report and remove them. No amount of training is worth letting a coach abusive my girls.

I wouldn’t keep them there to suffer abuse and then later go back and file a claim while I sat back and allowed it to happen.

 

[Solid444]

@Solid444, just because you *think* they’re false claims doesn’t make it fact. My daughter was abused by a coach and when she filed a report through safesport- years later after we’d left the area due to fear of reprisals, she was online bullied by former teammates who thought their own treatment and hers was par for the course in gymnastics and she just wasn’t tough enough. She’s as tough as they come though, and I take responsibility for my part in letting it go on at all. That said, what in the world would be the point of false reporting? If it isn’t sexual abuse or a famous coach, usag doesn’t really give a whit about it. It’s been two years since my daughter reported and she had exactly two communications, both of which said they’ll get to it eventually. It’s a complete joke with only real consequences for the girl who reports, in our experience. I almost wished I had nudged my daughter not to report because of the bullying.

I’m sorry your daughter’s former teammates bullied her. Unacceptable and despicable behavior.

Did your daughter stay at the gym after you discovered the abuse and for how long?
I guess for my wife and I we wouldn’t leave our DDs in an abusive environment that further damages their mental health no amount of good training is worth years of putting their mental back together.

Not saying the investigative process I’m about to state below is right but this is where it becomes subjective because an investigator would want to know why did you knowingly allow your DD to stay in an abusive environment if it was so bad? It begins to water down the claim. Then it forces an investigator to have to determine whether the environment was a strict tough environment vs an abusive environment and all the facts and totality of the circumstances would be considered. Including whether or not you willingly allowed your daughter to stay in such an environment. They must ask themselves would you have stayed had you gotten a different outcome? I.E. made it to level 10, made it to Nationals, got a college scholarship, made it elite?

They would interview current and former gym families to see if it was a known strict gym across the board or an abusive one. They would look into whether you had gym options etc. All these facts and circumstances play a part in determining outcomes.

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but absent proof, police reports, records etc. proper steps have to be taken before confirming abuse.

 

[Solid444]

I also wanted to add separately that my younger daughter, who used to be a gymnast, dealt with some borderline coaching. She was told she was faking injuries and illness, publicly embarrassed, told she couldn’t set foot in the gym with her “injuries”- quotes added by the coach. Eventually they tried to push her down to a lower training level as punishment (but not a lower competition level) and I said enough. We found a new gym that night and she was happy soon.. I just had my happy-go-lucky girl again. But, in all honesty her gymnastics suffered because the nicer coach wasn’t a fit for her athletically even though he was emotionally. She still talks today about how maybe she could be on a different path if she had continued put up with the BS at the first gym.

Anyway, awhile after we switched- over a year- another girl and boy from the first gym switched too. Apparently the coach had been pretty mean to them, and even physically abusive at one point. The parents didn’t report him, they just left- and the girl told my daughter she was sorry. That everyone at the first gym was taught to believe she was a faker and just a whiner... but now she understood what my daughter went through. This coach wasn’t mean to everyone. Just people he was mad at, or who he thought weren’t worth his time and effort.

Awful!

I commend you for leaving. Coaches should never share or discuss heavy baggage with young gymnasts. It’s too much emotionally to put on them. They should have never been told your daughter was a whiner

 

[flippin out]

The research on emotional abuse supports what Faith is saying. I am aware of a child who's parents removed them from a club due to emotional abuse and physical abuse and 2 years later the child begged to return to the coach. The child threatened to kill herself if she couldn't return to the coach leaving the parents to deal with a very difficult situation.

For an idea of how emotional abuse affects parents and child athletes the blog post below highlights some research in the area. As Faith suggested, it is a grooming process.

Link Removed

Thanks for sharing that link. Eye opening for anyone who has no personal frame of reference (either first hand or through personal friends dealing with it)

 

[MILgymFAM]

I’m sorry your daughter’s former teammates bullied her. Unacceptable and despicable behavior.

Did your daughter stay at the gym after you discovered the abuse and for how long?
I guess for my wife and I we wouldn’t leave our DDs in an abusive environment that further damages their mental health no amount of good training is worth years of putting their mental back together.

Not saying the investigative process I’m about to state below is right but this is where it becomes subjective because an investigator would want to know why did you knowingly allow your DD to stay in an abusive environment if it was so bad? It begins to water down the claim. Then it forces an investigator to have to determine whether the environment was a strict tough environment vs an abusive environment and all the facts and totality of the circumstances would be considered. Including whether or not you willingly allowed your daughter to stay in such an environment. They must ask themselves would you have stayed had you gotten a different outcome? I.E. made it to level 10, made it to Nationals, got a college scholarship, made it elite?

They would interview current and former gym families to see if it was a known strict gym across the board or an abusive one. They would look into whether you had gym options etc. All these facts and circumstances play a part in determining outcomes.

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but absent proof, police reports, records etc. proper steps have to be taken before confirming abuse.

There is really no process for reporting emotional abuse to the police, nor even a true consensus of what constitutes it. That said, I forced my daughter to quit when I realized how damaged she was- the coach was a master manipulator, even touting his degree in child psychology as a means of controlling gymnasts and parents. I had raised concerns with him multiple times but somehow always left the meetings feeling confused and upset- he even made me cry by telling me I was a bad parent- for that second, in his presence, I believed him. All told my daughter was only in that gym for about 9 months. That’s how long it took to see problems, be effectively gaslighted, and then shake the fog off and do something about it. Those ten months do still haunt her to a degree even years later, even with therapy. Reporting him gave her agency back over her story. Did it take too long to remove her? Yes, absolutely, but in a world where you’re not supposed to watch, not supposed to question, not supposed to do anything but cheer and pay the (totally ridiculous bordering on fraudulent in this case) bills, it can be hard to see the forest for the trees. For the record, he was injuring and burning out gymnasts well before L10. In fact my DD is the only girl in her optionals training group to have persisted in gymnastics at all, and I credit that to having left when we did.

 

[Solid444]

There is really no process for reporting emotional abuse to the police, nor even a true consensus of what constitutes it. That said, I forced my daughter to quit when I realized how damaged she was- the coach was a master manipulator, even touting his degree in child psychology as a means of controlling gymnasts and parents. I had raised concerns with him multiple times but somehow always left the meetings feeling confused and upset- he even made me cry by telling me I was a bad parent- for that second, in his presence, I believed him. All told my daughter was only in that gym for about 9 months. That’s how long it took to see problems, be effectively gaslighted, and then shake the fog off and do something about it. Those ten months do still haunt her to a degree even years later, even with therapy. Reporting him gave her agency back over her story. Did it take too long to remove her? Yes, absolutely, but in a world where you’re not supposed to watch, not supposed to question, not supposed to do anything but cheer and pay the (totally ridiculous bordering on fraudulent in this case) bills, it can be hard to see the forest for the trees. For the record, he was injuring and burning out gymnasts well before L10. In fact my DD is the only girl in her optionals training group to have persisted in gymnastics at all, and I credit that to having left when we did.

Definitely sounds manipulative

Glad you guys got out of there. And kudos to your girl.

You aren’t a bad parent, we are all just trying to do the best we can.

 

[Omelianchik]

The point I was making was to you asking if there was proof of false accusations when multiple previous posters have stated that false accusations do occur.

I personally know of false reports being made and I gave examples of such.

Ah okay, I understand.

To clarify, though, the question I meant to ask was not "Is there evidence that false reports occur?" I think we can all agree that some number of false reports occur. What I meant to question was the idea - which i see on this board a lot - that false reports occur "more than people think", which Tigtimes said specifically in response to UGA2016's point that false accusations are rare.

As UGA2016 said, though.

I believe it happens regularly enough to cause concern within the coaching community, but the documented percentage of false reporting compared to valid reports is still relatively small.

I understand that if you're a coach or you're imagining this happen to a good coach, the idea of a false accusation is terrifying (for me, too!), but that doesn't change the fact that all the evidence I'm aware of says that people - both the general public and officials such as police officers who should really know better - MASSIVELY overestimate the rate of false reporting.

This is not really addressed to any individual (@Solid444, I believe you were just replying in good faith to the question it looked like I was asking!). I'm just finding it more and more frustrating to constantly see "but I know a person this happened to" constantly brought up as though it refutes the actual statistical evidence.

Again, I really do appreciate that if you're a coach feeling vulnerable, one case is too many, and of course we can't have a system where we destroy lives and livelihoods based on "well, it's probably true." I just think it's important to have the facts in mind and to try to be responsible about how much attention we give to the thousands of victims of genuine, proven abuse vs. giving the impression that false accusations are "the real problem."

 

[Faith]

I was saying if I a coach ever physically abused my DDs such as Slapping them, pulling hair, pushing them; I would immediately file a police report and remove them. No amount of training is worth letting a coach abusive my girls.

I wouldn’t keep them there to suffer abuse and then later go back and file a claim while I sat back and allowed it to happen.

as I said in my previous post, it isn’t that simple.

the athlete I know that was physically assualted. First off they didn’t witness it, because parents are discouraged from watching. Second all the other parents immediately distanced themselves and acted like it didn’t happen.

Thirdly that coach had gone to great effort to build an image of a fun, friendly coach. Was nice to parents, make little jokes about their child needing discipline to be a great athlete.

so right from the off they were questioning themselves. What did the child do to make the coach act like that. Was is as bad as it seemed? If it was that bad surely the parents that did see would say something? The welfare officer and HC said it was just the way the coach was spotting their child, who was being uncooperative, necessitating rough handling. It wouldn’t happen again etc, etc.

physical abuse, In the gym or at home, doesn’t come out of nowhere. There’s a long process of making that person dependant on the abuser, making them believe they deserve everything.

In my case, i saw an abusive coach. Everyone else saw a caring coach that wanted the best for the kids. That pushed them hard because they wanted success for them. It was what the kids needed, x was difficult, y was a drama queen who faked injuries to get out of training, z had fears and it was the child insisting she stood on the beam for hours not the coach.

by the time they saw it for the abuse it was, 3 years had gone by and most of the kids destroyed. One or two stuck it and now they and the coach are doing well internationally, so any complaints are squashed.

 

[Tigtimes]

To clarify, though, the question I meant to ask was not "Is there evidence that false reports occur?" I think we can all agree that some number of false reports occur. What I meant to question was the idea - which i see on this board a lot - that false reports occur "more than people think", which Tigtimes said specifically in response to UGA2016's point that false accusations are rare.

Honestly it was not meant to say I think one way is more than another you are reading too much into it.

I have no statistical knowledge and do not claim to have any. It was just a comment that in the current climate there are those willing to abuse the system that was put in place to protect legitimate claims of abuse. So please strike my off the cuff comment of “more than people think”.

 

[Omelianchik]

Honestly it was not meant to say I think one way is more than another you are reading too much into it.

I have no statistical knowledge and do not claim to have any. It was just a comment that in the current climate there are those willing to abuse the system that was put in place to protect legitimate claims of abuse. So please strike my off the cuff comment of “more than people think”.

That seems reasonable to me! Thanks for clarifying

 

[Aussie_coach]

I was saying if I a coach ever physically abused my DDs such as Slapping them, pulling hair, pushing them; I would immediately file a police report and remove them. No amount of training is worth letting a coach abusive my girls.

I wouldn’t keep them there to suffer abuse and then later go back and file a claim while I sat back and allowed it to happen.

Sorry, if my post was misinterpreted. I did think you made it clear that you meant that if your child was abused not simply touched.

My comments were more the general point that because as coaches we need to touch children in order to keep them Safe, we are in a vulnerable position.

 

[txgymfan]

Please be careful not to blame parents for not being aware of abuse sooner or reacting as you think you would. Bullying and emotional abuse starts slowly and most people don’t want to believe it’s happening to them or their child. It takes time to recognize, try to solve the problem and ultimately remove the child. Parents feel guilty and children often never acknowledge they were abused and may resent their parents for removing them.

This is true for bullying in school, religious settings or abuse in the home. I’ve seen it as an adult and a bullied teen.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Do you have any evidence for that? As far as I'm aware, the evidence is pretty conclusive that false reporting of abuse is a) rare and b) not significantly different from false reporting of other crimes. (That doesn't mean it never happens or that people who are falsely accused do not suffer terribly, but I see this idea on this forum pretty often and as far as I know - and I work in a field that requires fairly in-depth knowledge of the subject - it simply isn't factual).

To be honest, I find it really concerning that there seems to be such a strong investment in the idea that false reporting is a rampant problem when what we actually have concrete evidence about is that the gymnastics community (and society at large) has bent over backwards to ignore and dismiss claims of abuse.

I know of a gymnast who’s parent wasn’t happy with her placement. She left. I then came across the parent’s posts on one of those FB pages, and the flat out lies she was telling about the gymnast’s experience. She accused the coaches of emotional abuse, physical abuse, and mental abuse. There were many witnesses to her dd’s experience who couldn’t believe the things she was saying, as it wasn’t true. She claimed “dozens” of gymnasts that left the same place had the same experiences. But it wasn’t true. This is just one example of how a disgruntled parent can falsely accuse a coach/coaches and people believe them even when it didn’t happen.

I’m not saying all accusations are false, because they’re not, but as was stated, false accusations are not as rare as you think. It’s a tough job for the ones who have to investigate to make sure it’s done correctly so false accusations don’t ruin someone’s life, and true reports are dealt with as they should be.

 

[Solid444]

Sorry, if my post was misinterpreted. I did think you made it clear that you meant that if your child was abused not simply touched.

My comments were more the general point that because as coaches we need to touch children in order to keep them Safe, we are in a vulnerable position.

I agree that you guys are in a vulnerable position and all coaches are not bad coaches. With every other profession there is due-process and coaches should be afforded the same right.

 

[Solid444]

I know of a gymnast who’s parent wasn’t happy with her placement. She left. I then came across the parent’s posts on one of those FB pages, and the flat out lies she was telling about the gymnast’s experience. She accused the coaches of emotional abuse, physical abuse, and mental abuse. There were many witnesses to her dd’s experience who couldn’t believe the things she was saying, as it wasn’t true. She claimed “dozens” of gymnasts that left the same place had the same experiences. But it wasn’t true. This is just one example of how a disgruntled parent can falsely accuse a coach/coaches and people believe them even when it didn’t happen.

I’m not saying all accusations are false, because they’re not, but as was stated, false accusations are not as rare as you think. It’s a tough job for the ones who have to investigate to make sure it’s done correctly so false accusations don’t ruin someone’s life, and true reports are dealt with as they should be.

This is all I was trying to say!

Someone said how rare false accusations are and with no formal due process in place I was stating first-hand knowledge of this not being as rare as one thinks.

I do think real life accusers get a bad rap and false accusations are low. But with little due-process in the gymnastics community false accusations tend to happen.

There needs to be a better due-process that protects all parties involved, accusers and the accused.

 

[UGA2016]

I know of a gymnast who’s parent wasn’t happy with her placement. She left. I then came across the parent’s posts on one of those FB pages, and the flat out lies she was telling about the gymnast’s experience. She accused the coaches of emotional abuse, physical abuse, and mental abuse. There were many witnesses to her dd’s experience who couldn’t believe the things she was saying, as it wasn’t true. She claimed “dozens” of gymnasts that left the same place had the same experiences. But it wasn’t true. This is just one example of how a disgruntled parent can falsely accuse a coach/coaches and people believe them even when it didn’t happen.

I know of a gymnast who stated they were forced to quit due to emotional and physical abuse from the coach spanning a long period. All the current parents jumped to the coaches defence when the gymnast publicly announced what had happened over the years. The gymnast was called a liar and her parents were accused of only making a complaint once she had quit because she hadn't reached the top level in the sport. This gymnast was ridiculed on social media and made out to be a fraud. I can attest to the abuse she suffered as my daughter was in the same group and witnessed it. Not all girls in the group were treated the same way and these parents were basing their comments on their own experiences (or naivety) of the coaching environment.

This is not to say your story is not true, but to illustrate people's (perceptions of their) experiences can be different even within the same environment. Moceanu spent years describing the abuse she endured with the Karolyi's yet no other gymnast from her era who trained under the Karolyi's backed her, in fact they went as far as to state they had not witnessed what she described.

This brings us back to the point all allegations should be taken seriously, with a fair and just process of investigation to determine the truth.

If we look at the current trend - high profile coach is under investigation by SafeSport with numerous parties putting forward complaints only to have current/previous gymnasts/parents dispute said allegations. It is highly unlikely all complaints are malicious when multiple people come forward. I accept in your case it was one parent badmouthing a coach on social media - and although this is unethical it is not the same as putting in a formal complaint that could destroy a coaches career. Of note, I am aware that coaches and clubs may also badmouth gymnasts and parents when they leave, sometimes directly to the club they have moved to. We live in a far from perfect world.

 

[UGA2016]

Someone said how rare false accusations are and with no formal due process in place I was stating first-hand knowledge of this not being as rare as one thinks.

It might also be worth considering how many people move on from abusive environments and don't report - therefore leaving the coach to continue the abuse for generations to come. All I am saying is false reporting is rare, not unheard of but rare when you consider the number of complaints that are either upheld or not proven malicious. Emotional abuse is difficult to prove and many cases are dropped due to insufficient evidence to prosecute or revoke/suspend membership, this does not mean the allegation was false. Many coaches are unaware their practices may be bordering/crossing the line of abuse and therefore dispute the claims. Many parents/gymnasts accept abusive coaching as a necessary means to success and view those who see it differently as complainers who couldn't cut it. Unfortunately there are many grey areas as to what constitutes abusive practice which is different for each individual. It is not as clear cut as sexual abuse or physical abuse and therefore is often under reported or simply accepted as tough coaching.

 

[Omelianchik]

I’m not saying all accusations are false, because they’re not, but as was stated, false accusations are not as rare as you think.

Again, though, "I know of a case where I believe the allegation was false" (or two cases, or three cases) doesn't say anything about how common false allegations are. It says the number of false allegations is not zero, but I've never seen anyone claim that it is.

I think "the processes in place are inadequate and fail protect both coaches and gymnasts" is a very valid concern and deserves discussion and advocacy, but I don't understand why so many people in the gymnastics community - when I would have expected them to make an effort to educate themselves after the Nassar scandal - don't seem to understand how harmful it is to create the impression that false allegations are a common problem, especially since what IS a common problem is for allegations to be dismissed, ignored, and explained away.

 

[LJL07]

Again, though, "I know of a case where I believe the allegation was false" (or two cases, or three cases) doesn't say anything about how common false allegations are. It says the number of false allegations is not zero, but I've never seen anyone claim that it is.

I think "the processes in place are inadequate and fail protect both coaches and gymnasts" is a very valid concern and deserves discussion and advocacy, but I don't understand why so many people in the gymnastics community - when I would have expected them to make an effort to educate themselves after the Nassar scandal - don't seem to understand how harmful it is to create the impression that false allegations are a common problem, especially since what IS a common problem is for allegations to be dismissed, ignored, and explained away.

Thank you so much for saying this. I am concerned that the poster you quoted above has often chimed in on these threads about the false complaints. I understand that this happens, but it is rare. Most families do NOT want to stick their necks out and make complaints because retaliation is also a very real concern. Nothing overtly terrible has been stated by the poster, but the tone of these posts really has an almost victim shaming quality to it and I would agree that it creates a harmful impression. We are all aware that there are some vindictive people out there who will make false complaints. The much larger concern is that there are some very serious physical and emotional misconduct complaints that are NOT false complaints, and there is no recourse or protection for these kids. It is terribly sad. I used to find CB a safe forum where I could post, but I don't feel that way anymore.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Thank you so much for saying this. I am concerned that the poster you quoted above has often chimed in on these threads about the false complaints. I understand that this happens, but it is rare. Most families do NOT want to stick their necks out and make complaints because retaliation is also a very real concern. Nothing overtly terrible has been stated by the poster, but the tone of these posts really has an almost victim shaming quality to it and I would agree that it creates a harmful impression. We are all aware that there are some vindictive people out there who will make false complaints. The much larger concern is that there are some very serious physical and emotional misconduct complaints that are NOT false complaints, and there is no recourse or protection for these kids. It is terribly sad. I used to find CB a safe forum where I could post, but I don't feel that way anymore.

I was merely giving an example of a false accusation as well as agreeing with both arguments presented. I’m not “victim-shaming” and I hate that expression. There’s nothing unsafe about a discussion that presents both sides of an argument. It’s when the thread turns into personal attacks instead of a healthy discussion that the problems start. I feel like whenever someone brings up real concerns about false accusations, people don’t want to believe that it happens and ruins people’s lives. They get upset with the person who posts those thoughts, as if even suggesting that every claim of abuse may not be credible is a horrible thing (but I’ve seen it happen to 2 different people I know in different settings, but were both accused of abuse that was proven to not have happened). I was just joining the conversation and agreeing with both arguments.