WAG Why is chinese practice so cruel?

[headoverheels]

I have actually been to China, as I traveled there to adopt my daughter over 10 years ago. Comparing US culture to Chinese culture is like comparing apples to oranges. Their goals in raising their children (and training Olympic athletes) aren't necessarily the same as what you'll find in the US, and their methods aren't the same either. But their life circumstances are far different from what we're used to, and I'll bet if you grew up in China you'd think all of those things were normal. When I was a little girl I used to think that people in other countries all knew English - they just translated their English into other languages before they spoke it out loud. You can't expect other people in another country with different history, principles, beliefs and culture to behave the same way as we do in the US.

But I do get what the OP was trying to say. Their methods seem cruel to us and don't seem to get them much of an advantage over the US gymnasts, who are not normally treated so roughly, so why wouldn't they lighten up?

 

[Kiwi]

Just because something is 'cultural' doesn't make it right.

 

[headoverheels]

You are exactly correct - not everything that is "cultural" can be considered right. But I believe that it all depends on whose viewpoint you're coming from. Personally I wouldn't put up with a coach who required me to let my daughter move hundreds or thousands of miles away from home in order to train, and I certainly would never allow a coach to hit my child under any circumstances. But I am a product of the US. For a Chinese parent, it is an honor to have your child chosen to be trained for the Olympics and corporal punishment is very much accepted there. To me, it's not right, but it is what it is. Until the Chinese decide to change things, it will go on this way.

There are certain "cultural" things that take place in other countries that I find completely barbaric, but I don't get to tell those countries what to do, and their scale of right and wrong does not correspond to mine.

 

[profmom]

I don't know if this is true, but I have heard that in the US, if a child's parents can't pay for the child to train at a club that makes money off of gymnastics, the child is not permitted to train, even if she or he is extremely promising or has made one of the national champion events for early training like that TOPS thing or Future Stars. Even if a child was that good, if, say, his or her primary working parent lost her/his job or if the parents divorced and one refused to pay child support, the child would actually have to quit and no one would do anything about it. Could that really be true? Are Americans really that heartless and short-sighted and greedy?

 

[profmom]

What is wrong with American coaches and gyms?

http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/crying.47613/#post-323041
http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/dd-upset-and-singled-out.45586/#post-292717
http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/use-of-time-outs-as-punishment.42242/
http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/conditioning-as-a-punishment.30214/
http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/should-dd-quit.36822/#post-192715
http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/daughter-asked-to-leave-gym-devastated.36003/#post-184954
http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/tight-hamstrings.46143/#post-301753

Yes, this is a bit of a joke, but I think the point is clear. It's unwise to take at face value a handful of sensationalist videos that were obviously made to put Chinese gymnastics training in a bad light. I do believe that the approaches are different, but I would be really hesitant to condemn an entire country based on these differences, especially without having any direct engagements with coaches in those programs or a good, studiously derived understanding of how different value structures play into it. A few visits to a country do not make a person an expert on culture, nor does consumption, even avid consumption, of American popular or news media about a country. I don't mean to be all soapboxy about this, but some of my friends have spent years studying and writing about culture in China and elsewhere, and it is a complex topic that deserves respect.

Elite training in the US is pretty darn tough too, even if you don't believe that it's (still) like that Parkettes documentary or Jennifer Sey's book about how it was in the 80s. As I've tried to point out above, some of the things that happen in the US and in American gymnastics would be shocking to people from different political systems and cultural outlooks, especially the thought that a family's private income plays such a large role in who ultimately gets to train elite.

And as to the charge that these (sensationalized) methods are obviously failures, I think it would be relatively uncontroversial to characterize the Chinese men's team's performance over the last several years as "not too shabby."

I hope the tone of this post does not come off as an attack. This is not my intention. I do, however, want people to think about this from a bit more balanced perspective.

 

[Midwestmommy]

You make great points. However, gymnastics aside, there have been human rights problems in China that would not be tolerated in the U.S. If your friends have spent years studying in and about China they are well aware of that. Have you been to China or studied their history? I have, and little of what I know is gleaned from US media.

It's also helpful to talk to someone who immigrated to the US from China as an adult. I have good friends who are from China who are pretty open with their observations about both China and the US. One couple divorced pretty much over the issue of corporal punishment. Though raised in China with that type of parenting, she didn't want to hit her kids. Her husband saw nothing wrong with it and was criminally abusive by US standards. That same friend is a very strict parent and she feels US kids are mostly a bunch of slackers academically and that parents and kids here squander a lot of opportunity because we are not wise enough to be grateful for those opportunities. And she is right. So yes, it is complex.

 

[profmom]

I worry that this is drifting pretty far away from gymnastics, but I will confirm that some of my friends are naturalized US citizens or green card holders who came from China. I am aware of concerns about human rights issues in China and have friends who write and advocate about these issues (as well as having Chinese American friends who do not). I could show you pictures of myself and my friends wearing black armbands during Tiananmen Square. However, I also have friends who write and advocate about some very different sets of human rights issues in the United States. I find both bodies of work to be compelling.

 

[raenndiva2009]

Nope, never been. I know absolutely nothing about the culture or the training methods.

I am the same. No experience with China whatsoever. Athough the training in China is rather cruel, don't you think? Especially for a 4 year old... that poor thing

 

[happychaos]

I don't know if this is true, but I have heard that in the US, if a child's parents can't pay for the child to train at a club that makes money off of gymnastics, the child is not permitted to train, even if she or he is extremely promising or has made one of the national champion events for early training like that TOPS thing or Future Stars. Even if a child was that good, if, say, his or her primary working parent lost her/his job or if the parents divorced and one refused to pay child support, the child would actually have to quit and no one would do anything about it. Could that really be true? Are Americans really that heartless and short-sighted and greedy?

Yes, that's how it works. Thankfully, my taxes don't pay for some 7 year-olds TOPS training. Although who knows, a federal gymnastics welfare program may be on the horizon And there are local programs that provide gymnastics instruction to needy kids, but the training is not restricted to those that are "extremely promising".

Our capitalist system seems to be producing the best gymnasts in the world, with athletes who enjoy a much more "normal" life than their counterparts in some other countries.

But seriously, this touches on one reason why I think USA gymnastics so good. Gym owners and coaches are free to run their programs as they see fit. Gymnasts are free to decide what type of training they want, and from whom.

As for China, I think that they will absolutely dominate women's gymnastics at some point in the future, even if they maintain their current system. They are just such a massive country....

 

[sportymom]

I think nobody wanted to denunciate China or the people living there.

I have been to China and also other Africa (Uganda, Kenia...) and it is just a very different. As it was already said: cultural isn't always right!

I do really love China, I like the people, the country is so beautiful and interseting!

It's for sure that we could discuss about many different countries and situations here, were their point of view doesn't correspond with ours.
I have been to China and I can't remember seeing anything like a fun gym rec class etc. Even the kids of very rich parents are often not allowed to do so. They train 3 different sports, play at least 2 instruments, sing and guess what...they are working on their own collection - at age 7!

So I don't want to make any generalizations here, but it's a fact in most of the country.
I don't say discipline is a bad thing! Honestly, some clubs I know...oh boy, there should be better a chinese coach, because kids have no discipline.

But I think it must be handled with care. Some kids may respond to yelling until a certain point, but others may break on the inside.
Maybe it takes the best out of some (which it does, they have world class gymnasts), but what about all the others that are lost along the way? They have lost their childhood! I would really like to know if those kids love gymnastics as much as our kids do. How many posts can you find here about quitting and people always tell the moms, if their child's heart isn't in the sport anymore, it's wise not to continue. But the chinese kids don't have an option, I actually doubt that their heart is in the sport from the beginning...

You can watch those docus if you are interested!


This is only part 1/5!



There are many more on youtube!

It's the same with the shaolin monks in China, if you have heard of them. It's in Central China, they have no warm tap water there and no heating, kids get hit etc.

I could write forever.

So anyways, what I wanted to know is if the gymnasts would be worse or maybe even better if they had the same training methods in the US?
And vice versa - US gymnasts training in China?
Both methods show they work but do they work equally well for the best athletes?

 

[happychaos]

So anyways, what I wanted to know is if the gymnasts would be worse or maybe even better if they had the same training methods in the US?
And vice versa - US gymnasts training in China?
Both methods show they work but do they work equally well for the best athletes?

I think it's hard to generalize because the motivations of a Chinese gymnast and an American gymnast might be so different. Many Chinese gymnasts certainly have more pressure, and more at stake than American gymnasts.

Also, I think the Chinese coaches DO care about the children they coach and they think they are doing what's best....There are just so many differences between Chinese and American culture that it's hard to compare. What would be considered abusive here is a privilege there.

 

[gymgal]

It has been awhile since I have watched those videos and don't care to see them again. Just too sad - but I wonder how long ago that footage was taped and whether it is still like that today. They just seem so old.

 

[profmom]

Perhaps somewhere in China on the web, there is a parallel discussion going on right this minute about the Parkettes video and Little Girls in Pretty Boxes!

 

[wallinbl]

Just because something is 'cultural' doesn't make it right.

No doubt, but most in this thread really don't understand the Chinese at all. We all make sacrifices in pursuit of our goals, and so do they. That the sacrifices are different aren't all that surprising.

To the comments that their system isn't working, I'll point out that they took home 12 gymnastics medals in 2012, compared to 6 for the US. Perhaps they have a different perspective on whether or not it's working, and they aren't limiting their view of that to just the women's artistic event.

As a bit of perspective:
We sacrifice quite a lot in pursuit of careers and money. Many cultures look at us and think we're idiots for it, see that it doesn't bring us happiness, and wonder why we don't stop. Yet, we don't stop; in fact, it often looks like we're doubling down on it.

 

[Faith]

How many people in our own cultures think we're bordering on abuse putting our 6 and 7 year olds in gymnastics 18 hours a week?

Many people have posted about being judged in the schoolyard by other parents, who know little about your child or gymnastics.

 

[Gymsanity]

Whoah, where did all these experts in chinese culture and chinese gymnastics training suddenly come from?

Have you been to China? Would love to hear your perspective (or anecdotes)!

No, but I did order Chinese food last night!

 

[emorymom]

I have nothing against Chinese people. They are lovely people and love their kids. I am sure the coaches are lovely people who love their kids to the extent possible.
CHINA IS A DYSTOPIAN SOCIETY. Write a novel about it, and it would go firmly into the dystopian genre. I am not talking about their culture at large. I'm taking about their government, and guess what? There government runs the sports system.
I don't know what you people expect from a government that its people rightly fear to cross because you HAVE NO RIGHTS.
We are talking about a government that rounds up anyone who they don't believe thinks right, and locks them up. Anyone who talks against government action, rounded up. You just don't do it.

 

[JazzyMom]

I have been to China twice. Both my kids are adopted from China. The orphanage my son came from was amazing. The orphanage my daughter came from was scary. If I look for a video of Chinese orphans, I see quite a few that remind me of my daughter's orphanage. None of my son's. Why is that? I believe it is because the sad reality is that no one wants to see happy and normal. The videos that get posted are usually the exceptions, not the rule. How many of you would want to watch a video of my daughter's last night practice. I love my daughter and I didn't want to watch it. I saw more love for children over in China than I ever have here. People would come up to my kids and make sure they were warm enough and do crazy things to make them laugh. China is probably more the same than different than the US. After all, my daughter just left a gym where I saw them make a girl practice with a neck brace on and thought they were crazy!

 

[bogwoppit]

Closing this down, it was trolling to begin with and I feel it is going nowhere.

 

[bogwoppit]

Banned Sportymom for having duplicate accounts. I doubt she was either sporty or a mom, but she sure was a troll.