Why the long hours?

[Flossyduck]

Well I promised to shut up, but.

Dd does 18 hours and two of the girls at her level do 21 because they go in to have special sessions with the HC. At level 3 it ramps up steeply.

I totally agree with what you that girls could pass the level on fewer hours, but that isn't enough. The top gyms want to get their girls to nationals. Our gym likes to fill the podium at regionals. They simply don't enter girls if they think they stand no chance of medalling, even if they would pass. It has been known for them to get a phone call the night before saying 'don't bother coming'. Our gym is not the only one to do things like that. That is why they do all the hours, to get 'the advantage' as you say. And the burn out rate is high, along with the injury rate and the numbers of girls jumping from one club to another because tensions flare and favouritism causes problems.

What happens a lot is that girls from smaller clubs, do the lower levels and do ok and then transfer to a bigger club to do from level 3 or 2. They often do extremely well. They have done fewer hours to that point and it doesn't make any difference. So again, I wonder why I am doing this?

I would also like to say that, there has been quite a bit of research recently which suggests that the 10,000 hours thing is a bit of a red herring. They have compared athletes from various disciplines and found that natural ability and other physical attributes are more important. The research was initiated as a result of increasing numbers of people entering sport at a later age and managing to perform well on the world stage.

If they didn't drive them to do all the hours, they wouldn't have to compete by the age of 16 because their bodies wouldn't be so knackered! (Thinks back to the sound of dd's toes and ankles crackling last night, yuck).

 

[Iwannabemargo]

I know there are problems in all sports. Big Boy is a talented rugby player, he is earmarked for the county team ( can't play as he has delayed puberty and is way too small - a foot smaller than his team mates). That is in part due to his natural talent, but its helped by the fact that his dad was a national junior and is mates with the "alakazoos".

He has never put big boy forward, but he shows up to trials with him and its "so which is your son?" (scribble on clipboard).

Its the lack of information that drives me nuts.

When I ask "how good is my daughter" I don't want sycophantic praise, neither do I want to be dismissed with a wave and a smile.

I want to know, within the given variables of injury, current drive, boys and make-up etc, how good she really is/can be. This will allow me to make an intelligent assessment of how much effort I, and the rest of the family contribute to her sport (in time, emotional support and good old LSD). One defined pathway (that wasn't so secretive) would be helpful.

I know what Big Boy got in his GCSEs last year, I know he took them a year early, I know what I got in my O-levels I took early and he got a boot up the backside and was told he had to work harder in Maths this year. I have an objective, national scale to judge him on. Is it too much to ask for sport to be the same ?


Sorry to rant

 

[Jenny]

Well I promised to shut up, but.

Dd does 18 hours and two of the girls at her level do 21 because they go in to have special sessions with the HC. At level 3 it ramps up steeply.

I totally agree with what you that girls could pass the level on fewer hours, but that isn't enough. The top gyms want to get their girls to nationals. Our gym likes to fill the podium at regionals. They simply don't enter girls if they think they stand no chance of medalling, even if they would pass. It has been known for them to get a phone call the night before saying 'don't bother coming'. Our gym is not the only one to do things like that. That is why they do all the hours, to get 'the advantage' as you say. And the burn out rate is high, along with the injury rate and the numbers of girls jumping from one club to another because tensions flare and favouritism causes problems.

What happens a lot is that girls from smaller clubs, do the lower levels and do ok and then transfer to a bigger club to do from level 3 or 2. They often do extremely well. They have done fewer hours to that point and it doesn't make any difference. So again, I wonder why I am doing this?

I would also like to say that, there has been quite a bit of research recently which suggests that the 10,000 hours thing is a bit of a red herring. They have compared athletes from various disciplines and found that natural ability and other physical attributes are more important. The research was initiated as a result of increasing numbers of people entering sport at a later age and managing to perform well on the world stage.

If they didn't drive them to do all the hours, they wouldn't have to compete by the age of 16 because their bodies wouldn't be so knackered! (Thinks back to the sound of dd's toes and ankles crackling last night, yuck).

Spot on. I couldn't agree more. 18 hours is not too bad Flossyduck. For some reason I thought you were doing 20+ with an afternoon and a before school session which sounded a lot. I would hate a before school session. Do you know yet if dd will do her levels next weekend? Hope her ankle is better.

 

[Flossyduck]

She does do an afternoon session and yes they did a before school session for a while. It started at 7am and, as we live an hour away, well you can imagine how much I hated that! For quite a long period I just wasn't able to get there before the sun had been on the roads and one or two other people had driven ahead of me. My car is not great in bad weather. So she missed quite a few and so did quite a few others, so they cut it. - yay! Morning sessions will be re-introduced, probably after level 3 and wont be optional - boo

I don't yet now if she will compete next weekend, but they were adjusting her routine last night and spent a lot of time on tiny fine tuning things with just her and another girl who is definitely competing. So, well, I'm waiting for the phone call

 

[Iwannabemargo]

I don't yet now if she will compete next weekend, but they were adjusting her routine last night and spent a lot of time on tiny fine tuning things with just her and another girl who is definitely competing. So, well, I'm waiting for the phone call

Fingers crossed for you guys

 

[Nico]

Well I promised to shut up, but.

Dd does 18 hours and two of the girls at her level do 21 because they go in to have special sessions with the HC. At level 3 it ramps up steeply.

I totally agree with what you that girls could pass the level on fewer hours, but that isn't enough. The top gyms want to get their girls to nationals. Our gym likes to fill the podium at regionals. They simply don't enter girls if they think they stand no chance of medalling, even if they would pass. It has been known for them to get a phone call the night before saying 'don't bother coming'. Our gym is not the only one to do things like that. That is why they do all the hours, to get 'the advantage' as you say. And the burn out rate is high, along with the injury rate and the numbers of girls jumping from one club to another because tensions flare and favouritism causes problems.

What happens a lot is that girls from smaller clubs, do the lower levels and do ok and then transfer to a bigger club to do from level 3 or 2. They often do extremely well. They have done fewer hours to that point and it doesn't make any difference. So again, I wonder why I am doing this?

I would also like to say that, there has been quite a bit of research recently which suggests that the 10,000 hours thing is a bit of a red herring. They have compared athletes from various disciplines and found that natural ability and other physical attributes are more important. The research was initiated as a result of increasing numbers of people entering sport at a later age and managing to perform well on the world stage.

If they didn't drive them to do all the hours, they wouldn't have to compete by the age of 16 because their bodies wouldn't be so knackered! (Thinks back to the sound of dd's toes and ankles crackling last night, yuck).

Here is a link to an article on the original research, with a link to this research.
http://healthland.time.com/2013/05/20/10000-hours-may-not-make-a-master-after-all/
If you Google it, you will find a bunch of links that discuss this 10.000-rule.

 

[Nico]

I'd like the opinion of the other coaches on next thoughts.
Obviously kids are starting gymnastics at a very young age.
Gymnastics is a very complete sport, but wouldn't it be better to have a more general motoric approach when working with these young kids.
I could be possible that a lot of specific motoric skills aren't developed with kids only doing gymnastics from very young age, for example, eye-hand and eye-foot coordination.
Wouldn't it be better to use this more open approach and develop all of these motoric skills and choose for a specific sport later?
If they do choose for gymnastics early, would it be better to train a lot of basics en physical preparation first, or try to work on complexity first? I think this are to say for both of these approaches...

 

[Faith]

I don't know about the hours Flossy, but that sounds like quite a harsh environment for a 9 year old. Everywhere I've come across- you are only entered for a comp if you're ready. Once entered, barring injury etc it's a given you compete. I'd be hopelessly stressed with the pressure of leaving it til the last minute, and I can imagine as they get older it's stressful for the children.

It can't be easy. On one hand you're in a top club, your DD is one of the favoured "elite". On the other it's constant pressure and fear of not keeping up and being kicked off the program at any moment. Your DD may not feel it at the moment (hopefully) but I bet you do.

I think it would be the regime that did me, rather than the physical number of hours. I presume they can act like this because of who they are- they must have kids lining up to replace anyone leaving. Tricky for you because it can't really be an option to change clubs, she'll need to be at an HPC centre within the next few years and there aren't many about.

 

[Uglybetty]

Its the lack of information that drives me nuts.

When I ask "how good is my daughter" I don't want sycophantic praise, neither do I want to be dismissed with a wave and a smile.

I want to know, within the given variables of injury, current drive, boys and make-up etc, how good she really is/can be. This will allow me to make an intelligent assessment of how much effort I, and the rest of the family contribute to her sport

That about sums it up for me really. Just because I want to know what the potential pathways are (and whether we have missed the boat) does not make me a psycho gym mum. By analogy...if my DD wanted to be a doctor....I'd look into what subjects are preferred for GCSE/Alevels so that I can make sure she was following the correct pathway. I've also learned that unless you ask the right questions you are sometimes overlooked - they don't think you're interested because you've never asked!

The gym have said they expect a lot of movement between the "elite" and "novice" squads....that it's all about spotting potential etc. they also said that they thought 12 was the new 8 (meaning you had to shine by 12 whereas previously it was more like 8). I just don't see how that message fits with what BG have published and the mixed messages contained in this thread.

If it is true that the system effectively writes off kids who start a bit late and thus never quite manage to be "in age" then they need to start making it crystal clear so that I can decide whether or not it's a worthwhile exercise (for the whole family). They might as well stick a sign on the door of every elite gym saying "not training elite by 7 don't even apply". No wonder so many kids bugger off do another (often better paid) sport!

DD is currently training novice and I think they will leave her there for a few months at least to see how she develops. The first opportunity I get, I'm going to ask questions about their plans for her.

 

[Uglybetty]

Oh and as an aside....I do wish someone would show this thread to someone at BG so that they could clarify the confusion/misunderstandings.

 

[Flossyduck]

Lilysmum, we are in danger of starting a revolt here lol!

Seriously, from what I see your dd is training 9 hours a week at an elite gym in a region where novice is a high standard. That doesn't mean she hasn't started yet or been given an opportunity to progress and have excellent coaching.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

Lilysmum, we are in danger of starting a revolt here lol!

Seriously, from what I see your dd is training 9 hours a week at an elite gym in a region where novice is a high standard. That doesn't mean she hasn't started yet or been given an opportunity to progress and have excellent coaching.

I have always been revolting !

 

[Iwannabemargo]

and can we have standard terminology please ! Honestly is as bad as the chicken breeding world.

How can someone on an elite pathway be a novice ? Here Novice is someone who only really compete F&V

 

[Faith]

The gym have said they expect a lot of movement between the "elite" and "novice" squads....that it's all about spotting potential etc. they also said that they thought 12 was the new 8 (meaning you had to shine by 12 whereas previously it was more like 8). I just don't see how that message fits with what BG have published and the mixed messages contained in this thread.

BG only publish the rules- it's down to each club who they enter for each level. They don't specify that a certain child must stay on the elite track, or can never get on it later on.

If this is your gym's philosphy then it's a good one. I think too many clubs and coaches are rigid in defining "elite" and "others". If they are willing to move children across to the elite track at any point up to about 12 then that is the correct approach- it means they are placing children where they think they will progress best at that stage of their career. It also means all children are probably being coached as if they have a chance of future elite, which is by far the best approach as then late starters or late bloomers aren't left by the wayside as they focus on taking certain children only to elite level.

 

[Faith]

and can we have standard terminology please ! Honestly is as bad as the chicken breeding world.

How can someone on an elite pathway be a novice ? Here Novice is someone who only really compete F&V

I think this goes back to the thread I posted a while back. In many regions "novice" is the standard for level 5/4 children. Actually fairly scarily high standard, much more so than the early NDP club grades. Novice being someone just in the early stages of their WAG career..

 

[Jenny]

BG only publish the rules- it's down to each club who they enter for each level. They don't specify that a certain child must stay on the elite track, or can never get on it later on.

If this is your gym's philosphy then it's a good one. I think too many clubs and coaches are rigid in defining "elite" and "others". If they are willing to move children across to the elite track at any point up to about 12 then that is the correct approach- it means they are placing children where they think they will progress best at that stage of their career. It also means all children are probably being coached as if they have a chance of future elite, which is by far the best approach as then late starters or late bloomers aren't left by the wayside as they focus on taking certain children only to elite level.

Or it means that they want your dosh and are trying to keep the no hopers sweet?

Quite a few previously council funded elite gyms are now on a count down to zero funding and need bums on seats. Fast.

 

[Jenny]

and can we have standard terminology please ! Honestly is as bad as the chicken breeding world.

How can someone on an elite pathway be a novice ? Here Novice is someone who only really compete F&V

I agree. The dictionary definition of 'novice' is 'A person new to a field or activity; a beginner'. Maybe we should scrap the word novice and have levels right back to 7 or 8 instead nationally decided.

 

[Flossyduck]

Faith, I would be lying if I said I hadn't worried about getting the request for a 'chat', far more so in the past then I do now.


The first time a girl was moved out for falling behind I think we were too new and didn't really understand. The second time I was quite cut up about it because my dd thought the girl in question was someone she aspired to be as good as and was always saying "Suzy can do her upstart already and Suzy going to win a medal for sure" and Suzy was her friend. That was a tough one. And at that time I think it would have broken dd's heart to be moved out. That was in the early days, all of a year ago, lol!

I was also shocked by the stories about last minute being pulled from a comp to begin with, but once you realise that can happen you find ways to put it in a positive light and not make a deal of it. I've spent a lot of time finding ways to turn around what I thought were negatives and presenting them as a positive. I could medal in that!

The training environment is super supportive. The coaching is brilliant and caring and feels safe and dd is genuinely happy there. She knows all the coaches by now, so I think the cross over between groups doesn't feel like such a big deal and there are girls in other groups she used to train with, so again that's ok. She has also been able to get to know the girls in the out of age group over time and they are fine gymnasts, who all work towards challenge cup and seem to have a lot of fun. Sometimes I think she envies them.

By now she has a good gymnastics head on her shoulders. She wants to compete and do as well as she can and gets no more pressure from the coaches than she applies to herself. I have spent many hours telling her how amazing she is and how I'd be proud whatever. We both know that things can change. She talks with pride about her team mates who are clearly doing very well at the moment and she said to me, not long ago "If they move me across, I'll just have to do it the hard way".

So honestly I think she's pretty chilled about it. She surprises me with the sensible stuff she comes out with!

 

[bogwoppit]

Or it means that they want your dosh and are trying to keep the no hopers sweet?

Quite a few previously council funded elite gyms are now on a count down to zero funding and need bums on seats. Fast.

This is what I have heard too. I know Beth Tweddles gym has funding for a bout five more minutes and then it will be gone. How are clubs like that going to manage things when they lose all that lovely money.

Jenny has it right, it is bums in seats.

Flossy if your DD is in a comp/rec group doing 18 hours a week I hate to imagine what girls her age on the elite pathway are doing. I think the way the girls/families are treated sounds awful. You are the client, the paying customer. 18 hours a week with a big commute sucks. I know when my girls did 13 each, and we have a long winter drive, it was very hard on us all.

Reading some of this stuff makes me very happy not to be dealing with the insanity anymore.

 

[Flossyduck]

DD isn't in a competitive rec group, she's in an 'elite' group. I think if you were reading the post above you might think she's moved across, but I was talking about the potential for her to move across at any time and so we have had to make sure that has been presented as 'not too bad an option'. We talk about moving from 'the dark side' and 'joining them in the light'