WAG Xcel and JO

[MILgymFAM]

Sure. They could. But how are you going to enforce it? I feel like this encourages "spying" from other gyms and "tattling" rather than focusing on training.

My DD moved from Xcel Bronze to JO L3, training L4. Our gym does not have a strong Xcel program, but we went up against gyms that clearly did. It wasn't apparent in our area that Xcel was getting used to bypass compulsory levels. There just doesn't seem to be enough of an established precedent for that here. But we definitely saw gyms that had girls competing XB who could have easily been L4 in JO, which was incredibly frustrating. I'm a big fan of the Xcel ideal, but execution wise I think it's discouraging the very kids it was supposed to bring in - less intensity, fewer hours, more "fun" competing.

Does't usaigc set practice maximums? I am not sure how it's enforced exactly, but I know there is a rule.

 

[Muffinsmom]

Not much to add, but I'm enjoying this thread. Our gym (region 8) competes levels 1,2,3 then you must do xcel silver and platinum, then levels 7-10. No 4,5,6 at all. And xcel is considered optionals... Minimum 16 hours/week during the school year. Over the summer xcel through L10 train 20-32 hours/week.

 

[MeetDirector]

Muffinsmom -

Somewhere along the way your gym HAS to have the girls score out of USAG levels 4 & 5/6. I am betting there is a sanctioned "score out" meet that happens, but you just haven't seen it. If they aren't doing that, then those girls competing level 7 and beyond are breaking the rules.

 

[Muffinsmom]

Muffinsmom -

Somewhere along the way your gym HAS to have the girls score out of USAG levels 4 & 5/6. I am betting there is a sanctioned "score out" meet that happens, but you just haven't seen it. If they aren't doing that, then those girls competing level 7 and beyond are breaking the rules.

Oh yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply there isn't. In fact, the platinum girls scored out of 4 last week and 5 will be in a couple weeks. I just meant that those levels aren't trained or competed (except to score out)...that we HAVE to do xcel instead.

 

[twinmomma]

Does't usaigc set practice maximums? I am not sure how it's enforced exactly, but I know there is a rule.

As far as I know, USAG does not set minimums or maximums. I'm not versed in USAIGC.

 

[MILgymFAM]

As far as I know, USAG does not set minimums or maximums. I'm not versed in USAIGC.

I know that usag doesn't, I was just saying that if another gymnastics body does set limits (and they do), then is is possible. If not probable.

 

[twinmomma]

I know that usag doesn't, I was just saying that if another gymnastics body does set limits (and they do), then is is possible. If not probable.

I did a quick skim of the artistic rules and it says "Recommended hours up to 4 hours (7, 10, etc...) per week. Which tells me there's no hard and fast rule to enforce (but I'll be honest I didn't read as closely as I could have)

https://www.usaigc.com/SitePDFs/USAIGC COACHES RULES 2014-2015.pdf

 

[MILgymFAM]

I did a quick skim of the artistic rules and it says "Recommended hours up to 4 hours (7, 10, etc...) per week. Which tells me there's no hard and fast rule to enforce (but I'll be honest I didn't read as closely as I could have)

https://www.usaigc.com/SitePDFs/USAIGC COACHES RULES 2014-2015.pdf

Interesting! Thanks! Our old gym competed usaigc (there are no gyms that compete it where we live now) and I always simply took the coach's word at face value. She had even gotten in trouble once (or so the story went) for training too high hours for her girls that were usaigc gold and usag optionals at the same time. We were always told there was an a absolute max allowed training training time, and there would be girls who would come from a neighboring gym for "trials" and go back and tell about the hours, etc. Since my DD competed xcel, I wasn't too invested in all that. It's interesting to know it was apparently all manufactured drama though.

 

[MILgymFAM]

I did a quick skim of the artistic rules and it says "Recommended hours up to 4 hours (7, 10, etc...) per week. Which tells me there's no hard and fast rule to enforce (but I'll be honest I didn't read as closely as I could have)

https://www.usaigc.com/SitePDFs/USAIGC COACHES RULES 2014-2015.pdf

This is the only thing I could think of, in terms of what she was talking about (the bolded portion talking about not believing in the 20 hr workweek). Maybe it's written, maybe understood? I know the gym cap was 19.5 hours, so who knows.

 

[sevenatenine2]

Our state program has the kids compete in divisions based on score. I really like that aspect of the program and, aside from having awards last longer, I can't really find a con in it.

When my daughter competed USAG old Level 4, she was about a 35.00 AA gymnast. She was 7-8 and in the youngest age division. We competed in North Texas against several powerhouse gyms. At one meet, a kid received a 10.0----on two events! My daughter had a 9.65 on an event and was the last one in her age group to receive an award---I think maybe it was 11th?

Anyway, we switched to the state program and there were, I think, 7 divisions for Level 3. She started in Division 5 and ended up in Division 3---each time competing against kids whose highest all-around scores were within a point of her's.

Seems like if they did this for XCEL you could have the USA kids that are scoring insanely high all in one division, and the lower hour kids all competing with each other as well.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

, 7 divisions for Level 3. .

I would rather stick pins in my eyes, then sit through 7 divisions of Level awards.

Really sometimes its seems like the awards take longer then the meets and that's with just 3 or 4 age groups.

 

[sevenatenine2]

Well, there are no age groups and all 7 divisions aren't in one session, so it's essentially the same thing.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Well, there are no age groups and all 7 divisions aren't in one session, so it's essentially the same thing.

Oh thank goodness, that would be incredibly painful.

 

[twinmomma]

Oh thank goodness, that would be incredibly painful.

For the kids? Or the parents? Because I say I don't care how many awards or sessions I have to sit through if it's of benefit to the kids in terms of learning and growth.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

For the kids? Or the parents? Because I say I don't care how many awards or sessions I have to sit through if it's of benefit to the kids in terms of learning and growth.

The kids don't like to sit through lengthy awards either. They care about their own individual groups.
You ever watch them, When their group is done so is their focus. If there is an age group they don't have a team mate in they don't care so much. They are polite and don't leave because its the polite and sportsman like thing to do. But even they lose their patience.

And JMO here, but awards while nice and fun (especially when you win), not so nice and fun when you don't win. Have nothing to do with learning or growth. That happens during practice and the when they compete the actual skill.

 

[gymdog]

Well, someone has to come last. So I tell them so what, if you're last make your next goal to not be last. You'll have to have success somewhere, sometime. Someone is last even at the Olympics, does that mean anyone there isn't good at gymnastics or shouldn't do it if they love it? No. They usually understand this when you put it that way. Not placing doesn't mean you aren't good, it might just mean there were a lot of good people there that time.

Not sure I agree with all these divisions or that compulsories makes it equal, or we need to limit training. Nothing ends up really working out because people will always try to gain an advantage. And truly, if you're not scoring or placing high in Xcel, you're going to get killed in compulsories in my state. I'm honestly pretty shocked that it would be the opposite anywhere. Unless you go from gold/platinum to level 3 or something and essentially move back. Both programs (compulsories and Xcel) are highly competitive in my state. But a 38 in Xcel is not a 38 in compulsories, and by mid season you need a 38 in compulsories to win. Obviously, a kid might improve her gymnastics after moving to a new group, but all things being equal the playing field is not more level. First of all, you have people repeating levels or doing fall seasons then going right to optionals. You have some kids training in TOPS development programs and competing compulsories. You have some coaches who know what the major elements are and some coaches who are still teaching the routine incorrectly two years later.

 

[raenndrops]

In our gym, EVERYONE on team practices 7.5 hours a week (if they come to all 3 practices).
This is L3-training L8 and Xcel Gold & Platinum. We compete against teams that practice less at L3 (6 hours), but by the time they get up to L4 (10 hours or more), they are practicing more... but these gyms max out at 16 hours.

 

[sevenatenine2]

I think the problem is, XCEL was designed for kids that didn't want the hour commitment of doing JO. When the high hour JO kids move to XCEL, then XCEL isn't serving its intended population. I will should from the roof tops that there IS a place for the ten hour a week kid to do well in gymnastics--if not then there should be. It shouldn't have to be all or nothing.

Well, someone has to come last. So I tell them so what, if you're last make your next goal to not be last. You'll have to have success somewhere, sometime. Someone is last even at the Olympics, does that mean anyone there isn't good at gymnastics or shouldn't do it if they love it? No. They usually understand this when you put it that way. Not placing doesn't mean you aren't good, it might just mean there were a lot of good people there that time.

Not sure I agree with all these divisions or that compulsories makes it equal, or we need to limit training. Nothing ends up really working out because people will always try to gain an advantage. And truly, if you're not scoring or placing high in Xcel, you're going to get killed in compulsories in my state. I'm honestly pretty shocked that it would be the opposite anywhere. Unless you go from gold/platinum to level 3 or something and essentially move back. Both programs (compulsories and Xcel) are highly competitive in my state. But a 38 in Xcel is not a 38 in compulsories, and by mid season you need a 38 in compulsories to win. Obviously, a kid might improve her gymnastics after moving to a new group, but all things being equal the playing field is not more level. First of all, you have people repeating levels or doing fall seasons then going right to optionals. You have some kids training in TOPS development programs and competing compulsories. You have some coaches who know what the major elements are and some coaches who are still teaching the routine incorrectly two years later.

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[twinmomma]

The kids don't like to sit through lengthy awards either. They care about their own individual groups.
You ever watch them, When their group is done so is their focus. If there is an age group they don't have a team mate in they don't care so much. They are polite and don't leave because its the polite and sportsman like thing to do. But even they lose their patience.

And JMO here, but awards while nice and fun (especially when you win), not so nice and fun when you don't win. Have nothing to do with learning or growth. That happens during practice and the when they compete the actual skill.

So what? Part of sports is learning how to be a good sport. Let them lose their patience, and then learn the lesson that it's the right thing to do. My kid loses her patience with Math but she doesn't get to get out of it. And "not so nice and fun when you don't win"? Welcome to the real world. We have GOT to get these kids out of the participation awards mentality. As a manager in a large organization it's EASY to see someone's age come through because the participation generation constantly wants to be rewarded simply for showing up. Welcome to life kid, sometimes you don't win. And THAT'S OK. Because that's where you learn, pick yourself up, and improve.

 

[ivyagogo]

Not the point. I'm fine with my kids losing to other kids better than they are. My goal for them is be better at the end of the season than they were at the start - but that has little to do with scores. It's about being able to do a back handspring at the end of the season you couldn't do at the beginning or finally staying on the beam for your back walkover, learning a squat on, etc.

That said, there should be some apples to apples. Some people are using the Xcel program as an alternative to JO because their families can't put in 15-20 hours a week of gymnastics practice and others are using Xcel as an alternative to JO Compulsories. These kids shouldn't have to compete against each other. It's unfair. When a team takes the first 6 places in each age division it's wrong.