Parents NY Times article about losing

[MaryA]

For all that has been said about US gyms "over-rewarding" kids by going out 50% (often) in awards, etc. I think in general gymnastics doesn't have the issues that this article is discussing. Sure, the kid who comes in 22nd place may still get a medal (at the big meets where there are 40+ kids in an age group) but the first place winner KNOWS that she is 1st place. I think gymnastics is a sport where even the best athletes are pushed to work to be even better, and where kids who love the sport but aren't superstars are encouraged to compete against themselves... improve their score from the last meet, etc. Thoughts?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/25/opinion/losing-is-good-for-you.html?_r=0

 

[2G1B]

I agree with you. I honestly have no issue with going out 40 - 50% like they seem to do around here. And even with AAU last year and the going out 100% for AA, the kids still knew where they fell place wise. My younger DD wanted a 1st place sooooo bad and when she got one a few weeks ago the look on her face was priceless. Before that she knew that she wasn't first place, she understood where she fell in awards. It isn't like they just call everyone up and say, "here you go, here is a participation award" - no matter if the kid was 1st or 30th.

I don't like participation trophies, especially when the kids who really won aren't getting anything special. I honestly don't have an issue with what I have seen of awards for gymnastics though.

FWIW, 30+ years ago, when I started swimming competitively, I remember ribbons going out to like 8th place. They may have gone out even further. We didn't do an awards ceremony like is done for gymnastics; but I clearly remember waiting for the sheets to go up to see how I placed and then getting my ribbons.

 

[bogwoppit]

Here medals are awarded to the top 3 and ribbons out to 8th place. Groups tend to be larger at between 20 and 35 kids too. No trophies ever.

I do think the US is a little crazy on the whole awards thing. When my kids got a medal, or a ribbon, it was a very special moment and in their entire gym career they probably only have as many medals as some US kids get in one season.

I also think awards would just go on far too long. When the awards take longer than the meet itself I think you have lost sight of the goal.

But in the US gym meets are a huge money maker, your kids do way more meets than ours ever could do. Big fees, lots of bling, goody bags, themes etc etc. It brings in big money to gyms and so offering all these special enticements is what you end up with when you are selling something.

Here you do three meets, each meet looks exactly the same as the other two. If you are in the top few % of girls after those three meets you go on to Provincials. That is it. NO awards, rewards, no goodies, no themes. Same equipment every time too.

 

[JBS]

It is super ridiculous...but it is in our rules & policies that we must follow the 50% rule to be a State qualifier.

I am super ridiculous also...I have this issue that I love giving out custom medals. The rules just make me spend a ton more money on them.

Our home me of just over 500 USAG JO L2-L5 girls...

• Custom gold...silver...and bronze SKULL medals (Halloween meet)
• Ribbons
• Team trophies up to 72" tall for first place team

Total awards cost = over $4,000

 

[Fliptwisttumble]

We are the same as Bog, but our girls do a few extra meets - we run our own invitational, and hit a travel meet in the US. Some of the girls if in national or whatever, have additional meets if they qualify.

But yes, medals for 1-3, ribbons for 4-8, and nothing for kids beyond that (perhaps a small welcome gift, but then sometimes not). I am happy with that - but admittedly one of DD's friends last year was crushed when all the other kids in her age group/level received at least one medal or ribbon, and she none - for the entire year. Those kids have to find something else to motivate them, intrinsic satisfaction, maybe the loss drives them to work harder in training, etc. That is the reality of competition to me - not everyone wins. If that was the case, it is just a participation showcase.

DD will start her competition "career" as she puts it this fall. She recognizes she won't necessarily win - and the stakes are quite high - her first meet being a qualifier to a national meet. Top 6, or you don't qualify. So it'll be a quick and dirty learning process for her!

 

[mommyof1]

In principle, I agree with the authors that kids shouldn't get trophies just for showing up. On the other hand, my six-year-old preteamer is very proud of the two participation trophies she earned in gymnastics and views them as symbols of all of the hard work she has put in. Maybe she didn't deserve a trophy for her rec year, but I sort of agree with her that some recognition was appropriate for surviving her first year of preteam, especially since fewer than half of the girls in her group made it to the end of the year and nearly all of the rest quit over the summer. But if she were ten years old and got a trophy for playing some sport once a week for a two-month season, I would not think much of that trophy.

I am guilty of celebrating new skills with ice cream, but only when it's something she has worked really hard for over a long period of time. When she *finally* got her chin-up pullover (from a dead hang since she is so short that her feet never touch the floor), we let her order the biggest sundae on the menu.

I agree with Mary that the nature of gymnastics encourages each child to strive for better performance on a daily basis. My gymmie doesn't compete yet, but she is constantly motivated to master new skills, improve her form, and show her coach that she is a hard worker just because she loves gymnastics, wants to do it well, and wants to move up a level so she can spend more time in the gym. I don't think a 22nd-place medal in a competition will ever make her think, "Oooh, a medal! I must be so good that I don't have to work hard any more." Even if she did get such a notion, it would only last until about three minutes into her next practice.

I wish the article made more of the distinction between praising innate ability or personal qualities and praising effort or process. The article says this:

"Carol Dweck, a psychology professor at Stanford University, found that kids respond positively to praise; they enjoy hearing that they’re talented, smart and so on. But after such praise of their innate abilities, they collapse at the first experience of difficulty. Demoralized by their failure, they say they’d rather cheat than risk failing again.
In recent eye-tracking experiments by the researchers Bradley Morris and Shannon Zentall, kids were asked to draw pictures. Those who heard praise suggesting they had an innate talent were then twice as fixated on mistakes they’d made in their pictures."

But the article does not go on to discuss how praising and rewarding effort or actions can encourage kids to work hard, try more difficult problems/skills, and achieve more. For example, see

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/14/s...n-for-effort-not-intelligence-study-says.html
http://www.parentingscience.com/praise-and-intelligence.html

 

[iwannacoach]

I think the researchers and contributing writers who produced the NY Times article worked hard at gathering information and filtering it in to a brief but accurate resource.

That's not to say the Parenting Science article is without merit, as it seems to be written by people who are very, very, very smart.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

and in my day...no i didn't walk 5 miles in the snow barefoot to get to school like my parents...

but we didn't get ANYTHING. 1st place only. but you got to stand on the podium. it wasn't until high school when they awarded down to 3rd place.

all i remember today was working myself to the bone to get that friggin 1st place medal...that was the size of a nickel!

 

[Iwannabemargo]

Its odd to us in the UK too - in County its 1-3 medals, regionally its 1-3 medals 4-6 certificates. The last meet we went to it was ribbons 1-6 AA and nothing else. The awards took 5 minutes !

DD gets a lot of satisfaction from winning, but also from gaining new skills.

She used to have a problem with loosing / failing. But we tried to explain that you need to fail before you can succeed, I even got her a badge with the mythbusters slogan "failure is always an option" on it - just to remind her its okay.

 

[happychaos]

It is super ridiculous...but it is in our rules & policies that we must follow the 50% rule to be a State qualifier.

I am super ridiculous also...I have this issue that I love giving out custom medals. The rules just make me spend a ton more money on them.

Our home me of just over 500 USAG JO L2-L5 girls...

• Custom gold...silver...and bronze SKULL medals (Halloween meet)
• Ribbons
• Team trophies up to 72" tall for first place team

Total awards cost = over $4,000

Wow.....That sounds awesome! Wish our gym was coming! Such a nice change from a round piece of plastic with a sticker on it.

 

[sportsmommy]

I have a different point of view. There has many meets my dd has gotten last. It isnt fun when they go out 20 places and be the 20th place. Standing in front of everyone while they go up to 1st. My dd would rather not get a medal or ribbon.

 

[Aussie_coach]

The idea of going out to 50% sounds crazy to me!

In Australia we generally have 1st, 2nd and 3rd receive a trophy for all around and medals for apparatus. And then only if the division is big enough do they give out 4th, 5th and 6th ribbons.

But we don't have so many separate age groups. The could be over 100 girls going for that 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

My proble, with going out to 50% isn't that people get medals for coming 22nd. I don't mind the idea of being encouraging with awards. My problem is that it makes it harder for the kids who come in the bottom 50%. At our comps a few kids will get an award and the rest are in the same boat. From the sounds of it at your comps only a few kids are left without an award. That has got to push less talented kids out of the sport. Here kids could go their entire careers and never win a thing and still consider their careers rather successful.

By going out to all places you are ranking everyone from best to worst. Just like they used to in school classrooms in the old days. Is that healthy?

 

[kandkfunk]

But yes, medals for 1-3, ribbons for 4-8, and nothing for kids beyond that (perhaps a small welcome gift, but then sometimes not). I am happy with that - but admittedly one of DD's friends last year was crushed when all the other kids in her age group/level received at least one medal or ribbon, and she none - for the entire year. Those kids have to find something else to motivate them, intrinsic satisfaction, maybe the loss drives them to work harder in training, etc. That is the reality of competition to me - not everyone wins. If that was the case, it is just a participation showcase.

This was my DD her first year of level 4. She did not receive a single placement medal or ribbon. The few times she placed in the top 10 at a meet, those meets only awarded top 3. It was hard when everyone else was earning medals and ribbons, but it was also motivating. The next year, she was so excited when she earned her first ribbon. The experience taught her how to work hard and appreciate her accomplishments.

 

[Natasha]

Our state now requires over 50% event awards and 100% AA awards. Xcel and L4 Last year required you to go out 10 places and you were not allowed to have more than 15 in an age group, so often there were an average of 12 in each group. Our home meet (350+ last year) uses medals for all awards- we order event specific medals. I do like that they come home with 5 different medals (if they medal in everything) instead of all the same. But, the sheer number of medals is ridiculous and by the end of the meet I am so tired of medals and end up with a huge headache at the end of awards from all the medal clanging.

 

[aerialriver]

Try doing t&t where they go out 100% at 9:00 p.m. 4 hours away from your home. And the difference between 1st and 30th.... Nothing all the medals are the same gross bronzy silverish goldie ugly color.

 

[Sweden]

That article was written by one of the authors of "Nuture Shock." It is a must-read book. They are spot-on.

 

[flippingtogether]

FWIW, 30+ years ago, when I started swimming competitively, I remember ribbons going out to like 8th place. They may have gone out even further. We didn't do an awards ceremony like is done for gymnastics; but I clearly remember waiting for the sheets to go up to see how I placed and then getting my ribbons.

I have kids who also competitively swim. Sounds like things are the same as a few decades ago - Ribbons (small!) to 6th place, no matter if 6 or 160 swimmers in the event. Results are posted on a wall for all to see, and you go to the award tent to get your ribbon if you win one, no ceremony involved. Most people go home empty handed.

When we went to our first gymnastics meet after having done many a swim meet, we were amazed......

 

[juststartingout]

At the comps that we host they go out 50% with medals for each event. For AA they give out mini trophies for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and nothing for the rest although they announce all places for AA. I think announcing all places is harder on the kids who didn't perform as well.

 

[JBS]

From the sounds of it at your comps only a few kids are left without an award. That has got to push less talented kids out of the sport. Here kids could go their entire careers and never win a thing and still consider their careers rather successful.

This is exactly it! This is why the 36 in compulsory gymnastics is becoming an average score. 37...38...and even 39 is what gymnastics has become at the low levels...gotta get the hardware.

 

[luvmygymdtr]

I'm not "pro" give every kid a medal. But what I have notice is, no matter how far out the medals go, it's always the same girls on our team getting them. And my heart breaks for the girls on team who repeatedly don't receive one, meet after meet. Who is really learning the lesson in this situation? ...the same girls over and over again. It's the part of the meet I can't stand.