Coaches Walkovers and Limbers

[Marino]

Hi,

I'm currently writing books about gymnastics. Right now, I'm working on three books "Shoulder Flexibility", "Back Walkover" and "Front Walkover". I'm about 90% done with all three books.

I base my books on my own experience as a coach. I also talk to a lot of coaches about the subject at hand and watch a lot of the tutorials on youtube (some are really great, many not so).

While researching the subject about "Front Walkover" I constantly see people recommending learning the limber first. This surprises me a little, because the limber is much harder then a walkover (or is it just me?). The walkover you have a kick and push off with your foot. Whereas the limber requires a lot more flexibility to execute the skill.

I would like to hear what your opinion is about the subject of which skill should be mastered first? or perhaps even some basic drills for the front walkover and limber would be nice to hear.

You can see what books I have written here

hope to hear from some of you guys/gals in here

regards,
Peter

 

[Gymsanity]

Looks like a lot of work and thought went into your book. I hope that it is successful and it helps a lot of people. As for your question, I usually introduce the front walkover as a fast walking front step out looking thing, if that makes sense, and then start slowing it down as they get better. I lobbied hard years ago to get rid of that horrible (just my opinion) front limber, so I never teach it, as it is a back destroyer. Good luck.

 

[MissLisa]

Although I don't necessarily teach limbars, most kids seem to automatically turn their 'front walkover' into one. The only reason I can see for this is that landing on one foot is very unstable and requires more activation of the core and hip flexor muscles. Both skills require a lot of core strength to be done well among other things such as shoulder and back flexibility.

Good luck with your book

 

[iwannacoach]

Looks like a lot of work and thought went into your book. I hope that it is successful and it helps a lot of people. As for your question, I usually introduce the front walkover as a fast walking front step out looking thing, if that makes sense, and then start slowing it down as they get better. I lobbied hard years ago to get rid of that horrible (just my opinion) front limber, so I never teach it, as it is a back destroyer. Good luck.

It makes perfect sense if I may say so. I suppose there's some benefit to doing limbers but I'd rather trade away those benefits for healthier gymnasts.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the Garden Trampoline...

 

[Marino]

ok,. it seems there are some mix feelings about the limber skills, but it looks like all agree that it is something that is worked on after the gymnast has mastered the walkover.

@dunno ,.. I don't understand your comment? what about "The Garden Trampoline"?

regards,
Peter

 

[Tumbellina82]

Ooh. I think I understand this (the garden trampoline thing.) And I was wondering about this the other day; why some people learn front limber before front walkover and then have trouble learning front walkover when to my mind it is easier.

I've decided the reason the kids who can do front limber then have more trouble with front walkover is that they are trying to do it like a front limber but standing on one leg. They think the other leg is just waving around in the air so they see it as the same but harder because less stable. They don't get that you use the raised leg to reach forwards and counterbalance your torso to help you come back up. Also a front limber doesn't really use momentum but a walkover does. It needs to be more continuous but kids who do front limber see is at handstand to bridge with one leg raised, then try to recover to feet while standing on one leg. So the things that make it easier, the use of momentum and the step out also introduce more of a technique and control element than in the front limber. So kids whose flexibility and strength is better than their technique might find front limber easier but for others (like most post-pubescents) the converse will be true.

If that is right (and it might not be because I don't have that much experience with either but I do pay attention) the implication would be that front limber should not be taught to either group. For one it is just harder, possibly completely unachievable and potentially injurious and for the other it's taking the emphasis away from technique when that is what you most need to advance in them.

I hope I'm not knocking anyone's nose out of joint here. It is basically me thinking aloud mostly in the hopes of getting some feedback.

The garden tramp thing (I think) is because front limber is the kind of thing kids play about with on garden tramps. I'm sure it is a lot easier on a garden tramp than floor because you have that extra spring to push off your hands and back to feet and potentially a bit of a slope to go down too if you start just off-centre and land your feet right in the middle. But it won't work for a front walkover because that needs good control and form and a garden trampoline is an unstable surface so it will make it harder, not easier.

 

[Tumbellina82]

OK. So I didn't look at your link and now I did I realise that isn't what Dunno meant. What he was referring to re. "The Garden Trampoline" is that they are not "excellent for learning basic trampoline skills at home." They are rubbish because they don't respond at all like a proper trampoline.

By their nature they encourage kids to attempt harder moves like somersaults which can, of course, be extremely dangerous. I wouldn't recommend kids to attempt back drops and front drops on a trampoline without proper training which I don't think they can get from a book because they can't see them selves doing it and don't know when they are doing it wrong. You can break your spine in an incorrectly performed front or back landing, particularly front landing. I would never start a kid doing front or back drops on a proper trampoline without a splat mat in and I would also spot at first in case they throw it. (I'm a qualified trampolining coach in the UK.) I don't see how it can be safe for them to have a go on a garden trampoline without either a mat or a spotter.

For back landing the progression is a flat back which you really can't do without a splat mat in or you risk whip lash or at least it is uncomfortable. That fall-back you have diagrammed is a lousy progression. I teaches kids to start in a slightly tucked in shape and go backwards leading with their shoulders which is exactly you DON'T want them to do for backdrop. Also your diagrams for backdrop show the performer in a hollow shape as they jump up. They should be arched because they have to push their hips forwards to generate the rotation, just like the take-off for BSS which is pretty much the point.

In your back drop half twist to feet images you have initial twist labeled where the gymnast has a horizontal torso and is piked. This will see them sideways off the trampoline. For return to feet from back landing you show the performer dropping the legs towards the bed rather than pushing out through the hips to direct the toes towards the ceiling.

Your image also shows the performer with their hands to close in in front drop. This makes it harder to push away effectively and creates higher risk to the back in a slight over-rotation because there is less leverage. Because the hand position is not very clear some will land with them closer under their face and crack their mouth into their knuckles.

Seat drop is relatively safe, the worst that's likely to happen is broken wrists if they face their hands backwards (although your image does show the landing with the torso too upright and the hands not far enough beghind the seat) but as soon as you add twist there is the possibility that they over-twist straight of the bed and bring their legs round the side landing at an angle which can result in torsional fracture. (What happens to a forearm or shin when a hand or foot goes down and the rest of the body keeps twisting.) That can need surgery to repair, bone grafts and pins or it can result in amputation.

So all your book is doing is adding validity to using garden trampolines for gymnastic skills rather than simply jumping up and down like on a bouncy castle and creating a false sense of safety.

 

[Gymsanity]

I was confused on how you really felt about the book. ^^ Does this mean you aren't going to buy it??

 

[Marino]

Hi Tumbellina82,

We are getting off topic (it was about Walkover vs. Limber), but I would like to comment your post about garden trampolines.

I disagree with you almost on every point. I'll try and break it down here:

"The Garden Trampoline" is that they are not "excellent for learning basic trampoline skills at home.
Yes they are, the problem I see is that parents and kids do not know what basic trampoline skills are.

"They are rubbish because they don't respond at all like a proper trampoline."
and they shouldn't, if they did they would be much more dangerous. I think they are just fine as they are. It sounds to me that you have used a good trampoline at your gym and are comfortable using that kind of trampoline.

By their nature they encourage kids to attempt harder moves like somersaults which can, of course, be extremely dangerous. I wouldn't recommend kids to attempt back drops and front drops on a trampoline without proper training which I don't think they can get from a book because they can't see them selves doing it and don't know when they are doing it wrong.
I don't encourage anyone to do harder moves like somersaults. Actually somersaults are not even shown in the book. The back drops and fronts drops are progressively built up. What you are saying is something like don't run before a track & field coach has trained you.

I don't see how it can be safe for them to have a go on a garden trampoline without either a mat or a spotter.
You are too much in your own world about trampolines. You need to step back and educate the kids and parents about using the garden trampoline. We do not need spotters and mats for everything in our life.

For back landing the progression is a flat back which you really can't do without a splat mat in or you risk whip lash or at least it is uncomfortable. That fall-back you have diagrammed is a lousy progression. I teaches kids to start in a slightly tucked in shape and go backwards leading with their shoulders which is exactly you DON'T want them to do for backdrop. Also your diagrams for backdrop show the performer in a hollow shape as they jump up. They should be arched because they have to push their hips forwards to generate the rotation, just like the take-off for BSS which is pretty much the point.
Will not comment too much on this. I'll just saying arching and pushing your hips forward are two different things you are mixing together.

In your back drop half twist to feet images you have initial twist labeled where the gymnast has a horizontal torso and is piked. This will see them sideways off the trampoline. For return to feet from back landing you show the performer dropping the legs towards the bed rather than pushing out through the hips to direct the toes towards the ceiling.
You are reading the illustrations incorrectly. The piked position is from the rebound from the back drop. The gymnast should be twisting in a slight hollow position (or straight).

Your image also shows the performer with their hands to close in in front drop. This makes it harder to push away effectively and creates higher risk to the back in a slight over-rotation because there is less leverage. Because the hand position is not very clear some will land with them closer under their face and crack their mouth into their knuckles.
Have no clue what you are talking about. In the front drop your hands are nowhere next to your feet.

Seat drop is relatively safe, the worst that's likely to happen is broken wrists if they face their hands backwards (although your image does show the landing with the torso too upright and the hands not far enough beghind the seat) but as soon as you add twist there is the possibility that they over-twist straight of the bed and bring their legs round the side landing at an angle which can result in torsional fracture. (What happens to a forearm or shin when a hand or foot goes down and the rest of the body keeps twisting.) That can need surgery to repair, bone grafts and pins or it can result in amputation.
Too upright, not far enough back, we can talk to 100 different coaches and all will say something different. The rest of your comment is more or less non-sense.

So all your book is doing is adding validity to using garden trampolines for gymnastic skills rather than simply jumping up and down like on a bouncy castle and creating a false sense of safety.
I'm not validating anything. Wow, you don't want anyone to do basic gymnastic skills anywhere. I'm going to encourage my gymnasts to use their garden trampolines this summer and recommending they to try to learn the basic trampoline skills, which is the point of the book.

Thank you for your negative comments and non constructive reply,
Peter

 

[Tumbellina82]

I did think I was a little unclear in regard to the arch on take of for backdrop later. The arch is tiny, a result of the strong hip push on take off. Compared to most of trampolining where you are ram-rod straight, tucked or picked it can be seen as an a arch. Compared to floor and tumbling and the type of arch you see in skills like handspring, flic and whip it is straight.

What it isn't though is hollow, slightly piked or otherwise concave. This matters because if you are asking a kid to jump up rotate themselves in the air and land on their back and you aren't completely and utterly clear as to how they should generate that rotation they will fill in the blanks. If they believe they need to hit a concave shape on take off they will likely infer from this that the way to generate rotation is to kick their feet up towards the ceiling. This causes uncontrolled location and can lead to a neck landing. While the yoga plough neck landing you can get with an over-rotated back drop is less likely to cause serious injury than the contortion scorpion neck landing you can get with an over-rotated front drop a broken spine is still a possible upshot.

The problem with kids doing front and back drop at home, even if they follow progressions, is that the progressions only function as progressions if you do them with correct technique and with no one to watch and give feedback kids don't know whether they are using correct technique or not.

I don't like garden trampolines and to suggest using them carries a similar level of risk to running is quite ridiculous. I wouldn't encourage kids I was teaching to learn basic skills on them or practise skills they were learning in class. Given the very direct way skills build up in trampolining based on a fairly small number of mechanical principles a good back drop and front drop is extremely important. It is far easier to develop that in a child who has never done one before than one who has drilled themselves full of bad technique on a garden trampoline. I think if kids are going to have them the best basic skills they can practise on them are seat bouncing and if they are strong enough back bouncing (from a back start not back drop.) That way they are practising the push and stretch through the hips that you need so much in trampolining and it is great for improving core strength.

My comments might be negative but they are not unconstructive and they are certainly not nonsense. Either you genuinely don't understand enough about trampolining and the mechanics involved to appreciate what I'm saying or even ask a specific question to clarify, in which case you really shouldn't be writing a book on it, or else it is simply willful ignorance because I am not telling you what you want to hear.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Regardless of what we feel as gymnastics coaches, trampolines are here to stay. Kids are trying more and more scary tricks and will continue to do so because of the introduction of those you tube tutorials taught by 10 year olds. And with the introduction of trampoline parks.

We as coaches can't prevent kids from using them or from trying things on them which could be dangerous.

But we can educate kids about safe use of trampolines and gives them a better sense of aerial awareness.

Many years ago we never taught front tucks to our lower level gymnasts. But now we introduce drills for safe front tucks almost straight away when they start gymnastics classes because these kids are doing them anyway. If we don't teach the kids early on to do them safely. They will learn poor habits by teaching themselves.

 

[Tumbellina82]

I certainly agree they will learn poor habits by teaching themselves but if they are doing this on a garden trampoline with a book to guide them that is exactly what they are doing.

Educating kids about safe use of garden trampolines is something you can do in a book but improving their sense of aerial awareness is not. The same goes for teaching progressions. Sometimes you'll get a kid who just does it right straight away but more often what they do and what you ask them to do are not quite the same thing, even though the kid usually will not appreciate that. The corrections you make in response to that are where a lot of the learning happenings and it doesn't happen if they are trying to self teach from a book.

I know garden trampolines aren't going to go away and you can't prevent kids from using them or trying things that could be dangerous but I don't think downplaying the risks by presenting the more basic moves as something you can safely and effectively teach yourself from a book is the answer to that.

When teaching a class I will put emphasis on building aerial awareness and control through basic skills and I hope that will keep them safer if they have garden trampolines. I know that they are going to practice stuff at home but the fact that I can't effectively discourage it doesn't mean I have to encourage it instead. If parents ask me I will say that they can be dangerous and outline suggested safety precautions but beyond that I have no wish to take on any responsibility in regard of what kids do on garden trampolines when they are outside of my supervision.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Hi Tumbellina82,

We are getting off topic (it was about Walkover vs. Limber), but I would like to comment your post about garden trampolines.

I disagree with you almost on every point. I'll try and break it down here:

"The Garden Trampoline" is that they are not "excellent for learning basic trampoline skills at home.
Yes they are, the problem I see is that parents and kids do not know what basic trampoline skills are.

"They are rubbish because they don't respond at all like a proper trampoline."
and they shouldn't, if they did they would be much more dangerous. I think they are just fine as they are. It sounds to me that you have used a good trampoline at your gym and are comfortable using that kind of trampoline.

By their nature they encourage kids to attempt harder moves like somersaults which can, of course, be extremely dangerous. I wouldn't recommend kids to attempt back drops and front drops on a trampoline without proper training which I don't think they can get from a book because they can't see them selves doing it and don't know when they are doing it wrong.
I don't encourage anyone to do harder moves like somersaults. Actually somersaults are not even shown in the book. The back drops and fronts drops are progressively built up. What you are saying is something like don't run before a track & field coach has trained you.

I don't see how it can be safe for them to have a go on a garden trampoline without either a mat or a spotter.
You are too much in your own world about trampolines. You need to step back and educate the kids and parents about using the garden trampoline. We do not need spotters and mats for everything in our life.

For back landing the progression is a flat back which you really can't do without a splat mat in or you risk whip lash or at least it is uncomfortable. That fall-back you have diagrammed is a lousy progression. I teaches kids to start in a slightly tucked in shape and go backwards leading with their shoulders which is exactly you DON'T want them to do for backdrop. Also your diagrams for backdrop show the performer in a hollow shape as they jump up. They should be arched because they have to push their hips forwards to generate the rotation, just like the take-off for BSS which is pretty much the point.
Will not comment too much on this. I'll just saying arching and pushing your hips forward are two different things you are mixing together.

In your back drop half twist to feet images you have initial twist labeled where the gymnast has a horizontal torso and is piked. This will see them sideways off the trampoline. For return to feet from back landing you show the performer dropping the legs towards the bed rather than pushing out through the hips to direct the toes towards the ceiling.
You are reading the illustrations incorrectly. The piked position is from the rebound from the back drop. The gymnast should be twisting in a slight hollow position (or straight).

Your image also shows the performer with their hands to close in in front drop. This makes it harder to push away effectively and creates higher risk to the back in a slight over-rotation because there is less leverage. Because the hand position is not very clear some will land with them closer under their face and crack their mouth into their knuckles.
Have no clue what you are talking about. In the front drop your hands are nowhere next to your feet.

Seat drop is relatively safe, the worst that's likely to happen is broken wrists if they face their hands backwards (although your image does show the landing with the torso too upright and the hands not far enough beghind the seat) but as soon as you add twist there is the possibility that they over-twist straight of the bed and bring their legs round the side landing at an angle which can result in torsional fracture. (What happens to a forearm or shin when a hand or foot goes down and the rest of the body keeps twisting.) That can need surgery to repair, bone grafts and pins or it can result in amputation.
Too upright, not far enough back, we can talk to 100 different coaches and all will say something different. The rest of your comment is more or less non-sense.

So all your book is doing is adding validity to using garden trampolines for gymnastic skills rather than simply jumping up and down like on a bouncy castle and creating a false sense of safety.
I'm not validating anything. Wow, you don't want anyone to do basic gymnastic skills anywhere. I'm going to encourage my gymnasts to use their garden trampolines this summer and recommending they to try to learn the basic trampoline skills, which is the point of the book.

Thank you for your negative comments and non constructive reply,
Peter

backyard trampolines should be banned. and the book would be limited unless it came in every backyard trampoline box. and then you would have too rely on the users interpretation of the book. it takes years for coaches to learn the experience and the 'minds eye' that comes with that experience. in fact, it would take so long that either their kids would have outgrown the backyard trampoline, or they had someone get seriously injured and they got rid of it.

you come from a small country. backyard trampolines here are like toilet paper. a roll in every house. each year here children and adults alike suffer serious and catastrophic injuries, paralysis and even death. your book would do nothing to remedy this problem here in America.

 

[Gymsanity]

I do not care for home trampolines, that is my opinion. However, millions of people have bought them, so that is their opinion. No matter how strong your opinion is against them, it won't change the fact that they are legal and exist. People are going to use them whether we like it or not, so why not provide them a book, video, etc. explaining the basics and safety? It's far better than the alternative.......
As for your diatribe on technique, again that is your opinion on how you feel it should be done, but this thread isn't meant to be a discussion on trampoline technique, so I won't digress.

 

[Marino]

We are still off topic (oh why!).

Tumbelina82 you clearly do not understand what I'm try to accomplish with the books I have written. Every year when I start new classes, I always have a group of kids that have done like 1000 jumps with incorrect techniques on very basic elements like: a straight jump. Fixing a problem like this takes a lot more time then learning a new gymnast that has never jumped on a trampoline. As Aussie_coach mentioned, the trampolines are here to stay! I'm trying to minimize this problem of bad technique and bad habits. In my book it also says that the book does not replace a coach.

I also get parents that ask me for advice; "What can we do at home"... This is also a reason why I'm writing these books. My first series is about gymnastic skills you can do at home or the gym.

I have meet a lot of coaches with your attitude towards trampolines and it makes me sick. These people know a lot about trampoline and the proper way to do the skills and such, but they are in the zone called "I know more than you" and can only use the best equipment there is. What is even worse is how their gymnasts also pick up these twisted attitude towards the trampoline. I have heard some of these gymnasts complain about things like the air doesn't move away fast enough beneath the trampoline or you must have socks on or you will ruin the trampoline. If you have these kind of problems then I certainly wouldn't recommend any of the books to you, you are on a completely different level.

"Educating kids about safe use of garden trampolines is something you can do in a book but improving their sense of aerial awareness is not. The same goes for teaching progressions. Sometimes you'll get a kid who just does it right straight away but more often what they do and what you ask them to do are not quite the same thing, even though the kid usually will not appreciate that. The corrections you make in response to that are where a lot of the learning happenings and it doesn't happen if they are trying to self teach from a book."
You are all over the place.. now you talk about aerial awareness! and again you are wrong! I'm starting to think that your life is just about being negative. The book is there to help them and usually the people that buy a BOOK are going to use it or else they won't buy it. PLEASE WAKE UP AND LOOK AROUND IN THE REAL WORLD.

Dunno last comment is about the same as here user name. She/He is saying that it wouldn't help them in America... based on what!?!

Here I'm trying to get some information about walkovers and limbers and I'm wasting my time with two trampoline coaches that have very poor knowledge about gymnastics.

 

[Marino]

I do not care for home trampolines, that is my opinion. However, millions of people have bought them, so that is their opinion. No matter how strong your opinion is against them, it won't change the fact that they are legal and exist. People are going to use them whether we like it or not, so why not provide them a book, video, etc. explaining the basics and safety? It's far better than the alternative.......
As for your diatribe on technique, again that is your opinion on how you feel it should be done, but this thread isn't meant to be a discussion on trampoline technique, so I won't digress.

thank you

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I do not care for home trampolines, that is my opinion. However, millions of people have bought them, so that is their opinion. No matter how strong your opinion is against them, it won't change the fact that they are legal and exist. People are going to use them whether we like it or not, so why not provide them a book, video, etc. explaining the basics and safety? It's far better than the alternative.......
As for your diatribe on technique, again that is your opinion on how you feel it should be done, but this thread isn't meant to be a discussion on trampoline technique, so I won't digress.

because they don't work. ask the trampoline park owners who have already suffered 6 deaths. and then there is this: https://usagym.org/pages/post.html?PostID=10826&prog=tt

if you are truly a coach, under NO circumstances should you be promoting backyard trampolines or tramp park trampolines. the majority of you have NO idea what is taking place. look for another article soon that i will post.

and my opinions may be my opinions, but unless you have ever broken your neck you could NEVER UNDERSTAND the impact on families. same goes with death on these Godforsaken and unsupervised devices.

and supervised MEANS by trained personnel. that MEANS people like US. COACHES!! you diminish what we are and what we know when you suggest that a parent could just readily learn what has literally taken my entire adult life to learn. and i am STILL learning. but my 'minds eye' can not, nor will it ever, be learned overnight or from a book such that has been posited here.

and not just my opinion. this is also the recommendations of DOCTORS. especially Emergency Room Physicians. they are the first line in all of this. the injuries and deaths they have seen from backyard trampolines and trampoline park trampolines have been daunting. it's like watching those dumb dads put their kids on their motorcycles. the dad has the helmet. but the kid doesn't. or, the dad doesn't and the kid does. or, neither of them do. i have seen those 3 scenarios.

why do you think they are not covered under a homeowners policy? do you have any idea what a quad injury costs? any idea at all??

why do municipalities require fences, or enclosures around built in pools? for looks?? and depending where you live, some muni's require fences for homeowners with backyard trampolines. wonder why that is...

this issue is NOT about freedom or liberty and the pursuit of happiness...and because you can. common sense in America went in the toilet circa 1991. just because you can afford to buy a trampoline, or have the money to go to a trampoline park, doesn't make it smart or right.

if you were involved with what is going on, and you could see the injuries that are taking place you would have a completely different perspective about backyard and tramp park trampolines.

 

[Marino]

@dunno

here my comments:

"if you are truly a coach, under NO circumstances should you be promoting backyard trampolines or tramp park trampolines. the majority of you have NO idea what is taking place. look for another article soon that i will post."
Actually I talk to the parents at the gym and tell them about the problems about the garden trampoline. I tell them I have hate/love feeling about them, but the fact is the trampoline is not going away. This was the primary motivation for writing the book, perhaps I can help guide them in learning the basic skills on the trampoline and hope when they come to class that we have less to correct. My book does NOT have somersaults of any kind in it. Half the book is just about jumping and the technique used.

"and my opinions may be my opinions, but unless you have ever broken your neck you could NEVER UNDERSTAND the impact on families. same goes with death on these Godforsaken and unsupervised devices."
I really hate these kind of comments "Oh you don't know how it is if it hasn't happened to you". This again that zone I talked about "I know more than you". EVERYBODY knows the impact it has and understand it!

"and supervised MEANS by trained personnel. that MEANS people like US. COACHES!! you diminish what we are and what we know when you suggest that a parent could just readily learn what has literally taken my entire adult life to learn. and i am STILL learning. but my 'minds eye' can not, nor will it ever, be learned overnight or from a book such that has been posited here."
Ah what!? It has taken you your entire adult life to learn to do straight jumps?.... "diminish what we are"?!??! come on really,.. so if you son plays football with the other kids on you block is he really diminishing your football coaches ability??!

"and not just my opinion. this is also the recommendations of DOCTORS. especially Emergency Room Physicians. they are the first line in all of this. the injuries and deaths they have seen from backyard trampolines and trampoline park trampolines have been daunting. it's like watching those dumb dads put their kids on their motorcycles. the dad has the helmet. but the kid doesn't. or, the dad doesn't and the kid does. or, neither of them do. i have seen those 3 scenarios. "
Yes, Doctors will say that,... what did you expect?! He playing it safe. If he says that there is no danger and so on and you go home and get injured then we have problem.. don't we?! Dad and helmet analogy has no relation to what we are talking about.

 

[Gymsanity]

Did we have a little too much Red Bull this morning dunno?
You can huff and puff and blow all you want, but as long as people keep buying those things, any and all information on their safe use is going to be a plus, not a negative.