WAG Another USAG screw up

[gopuckgo]

I'm not surprised by it one bit. There have also been numerous complaints made to USAG about abusive coaching tactics of certain coaches that fall into the mental and tipping on the physical realm (throwing mats and pit blocks at a kids head files under the abuse category to me) and USAG ignores it. It's almost like they believe that they are above the law or repercussions of abuse of any kind. No abuse, whether sexual, physical or mental should be a tolerated practice technique in any sport, ever. It really bothers me that in any other area an abuser would be immediately removed from practicing, can you imagine a teacher behaving this way and not be in trouble? I think that it's time that the public demand better practices out of USAG in order to protect our children from these wide spread and clearly acceptable abusive techniques. We must remember that gymnastics is a leisure activity for kids and should be fun and enjoyable. I hope that something major is forced on them to make them wake the heck up.

 

[Jenny]

I work in a school and by law I have to have a Working with Children Check. I would have to have it just to volunteer to help with reading too. It evaluates ANYTHING in my history that could affect my ability to work with children; convictions, charges that did not lead to conviction, apprehended violence orders (restraining orders), allegations, reasons for prior dismissals if they are on record, and any relevant information collected by registration bodies about disciplinary proceedings or employer concerns.

A new employer does not get given the details. They just find out whether or not I am deemed to be a fit person to work with children. It isn't just about what people have actually been caught doing. It is also about patterns of behaviour that suggest risk. A single unsubstantiated accusation or dropped charge would not put someone out of work under this system, but a list of restraining orders and dismissals like the one in that first link would mean someone should never work with kids again.

It may be that organisations like USAG need some sort of external support mechanism that lets them do something useful with the third party information they have. After all, even if they did ban a coach, a committed paedophile would just find themselves an alternate hunting ground. Volunteering, scouts, youth group leader, etc. There is no shortage of opportunity if there is no nation-wide system that actually keeps an eye on people's past behaviour.

same in the UK.

 

[Canadian_gym_mom]

I still don't understand why the parents didn't go to the police as soon as they found out. [emoji853]

 

[2gymmies]

I think some lines are not as black and white as they may seem... Anyone here have a football or basketball player? I know football players that have had coaches in their faces about all kinds of crazy things - didn't you guys see that Will Smith movie about the concussions - unfortunately, sometimes things go on that seem like the norm until something extreme happens and forces change. My basketball playing boys have had to run suicides... and my gymnasts have had to do rope climbs... what kind of line does that kind of punishment or consequence cross? Is it physical abuse, emotional abuse or mental toughness training? Or possibly just conditioning? I'm not totally sure because its definitely not black and white, to me anyway! I would never trust USAG to make a decision about who is coaching my kid. I would trust the people with her everyday or I would not let her be in the sport. Just as I would with a basketball player or a soccer player or any other sport at my kids school or a private club.

 

[bookworm]

I'm not surprised by it one bit. There have also been numerous complaints made to USAG about abusive coaching tactics of certain coaches that fall into the mental and tipping on the physical realm 1. (throwing mats and pit blocks at a kids head files under the abuse category to me) and USAG ignores it. It's almost like they believe that they are above the law or repercussions of abuse of any kind. No abuse, whether sexual, physical or mental should be a tolerated practice technique in any sport, ever. It really bothers me that in any other area an abuser would be immediately removed from practicing, can you imagine a teacher behaving this way and not be in trouble? I think that it's time that the public demand better practices out of USAG in order to protect our children from these wide spread and clearly acceptable abusive techniques. We must remember that 2. gymnastics is a leisure activity for kids and should be fun and enjoyable. I hope that something major is forced on them to make them wake the heck up.

Point 1. Not to discourage you going forward, but some of what you'll see/hear from your kid in NCAA, would make you vomit...unfortunately , this air of being "Teflon" starts early with certain coaches and marches on for years and no one is able to touch them and make them stop,....

Point 2. don't kid yourself, it's a business, especially in NCAA ...and I'm sure many larger successful clubs have this M.O. as well..

 

[gopuckgo]

I think some lines are not as black and white as they may seem... Anyone here have a football or basketball player? I know football players that have had coaches in their faces about all kinds of crazy things - didn't you guys see that Will Smith movie about the concussions - unfortunately, sometimes things go on that seem like the norm until something extreme happens and forces change. My basketball playing boys have had to run suicides... and my gymnasts have had to do rope climbs... what kind of line does that kind of punishment or consequence cross? Is it physical abuse, emotional abuse or mental toughness training? Or possibly just conditioning? I'm not totally sure because its definitely not black and white, to me anyway! I would never trust USAG to make a decision about who is coaching my kid. I would trust the people with her everyday or I would not let her be in the sport. Just as I would with a basketball player or a soccer player or any other sport at my kids school or a private club.

I don't think that we are talking about "normal" coaching practices here. I believe that we are referring to the point in time when something appears to be "mental toughness" training or "therapy" and then begins to cause physiological symptoms and then crosses into the realm of "crazy" and abusive here. Most parents know the difference, whether they act on it or not (or stay and leave their kid in an abusive situation) is up to them. Many people drink the koolaid in sports in general.

Trust me when I say that I know the difference and when I can tell you that I've seen it happen it has gone waaaayyyyy beyond the "normal" realm of what one would consider "good" coaching. Similar to what provokes cutting edge good medical treatment or what constitutes abuse?

Case in point: Dr Nassar was doing a similar technique that I am certified in. It is an acceptable practice when :1) patient receives informed consent 2) patient is given a thorough explanation of procedure along with contraindications, etc 3) patient if under 18 has an adult present and it has been explained to adult and child and is still required in a rare case. 4) examination gloves and proper medical cleanliness and safety techniques are followed.

Now, think about this, all techniques done were the same. So what makes one abuse and other not? When does it cross the professional line? See, what one sees as abusive someone else sees as "mental toughness". In the case above, it's abusive because "best practices" were not followed. I see it as if it causes unintended harm to an individual, that is where the line becomes crossed. We must make extra sure as professionals in any field that clear communication is present in anything we do.

I think most kids can handle "mental toughness" training, but what if that training entails a 5'10 tall grown adult standing over you (as a young child) with a fist in your face, bright red face, spit coming out of the mouth, yelling and screaming and using bullying techniques to get an end result? Is it then just good coaching or insanity???? So who would you say that is "normal" for say a 10 year old to endure?

I'm not talking about good normal coaching or practices here. I'm taking about a lot more than that. And no it doesn't need to be like that, my father and husband both elite level athletes never saw anything like they saw happen in "gym world."

 

[wrzos]

Anyone else just get an email from USAG (to parents of competitive team members)? Has a lot of fluffy info at the top, then moves right into keeping our athletes safe, and had links to two youtube videos that can be watched with your child, on how to address inappropriate touching of your private parts...

My dd has competed for 4 years, and I've never gotten a Dear Parent email from USAG. While the information is certainly useful, I definitely get the feeling they are scrambling to minimize the public fallout from this...

 

[duyetanh]

Anyone else just get an email from USAG (to parents of competitive team members)? Has a lot of fluffy info at the top, then moves right into keeping our athletes safe, and had links to two youtube videos that can be watched with your child, on how to address inappropriate touching of your private parts...

My dd has competed for 4 years, and I've never gotten a Dear Parent email from USAG. While the information is certainly useful, I definitely get the feeling they are scrambling to minimize the public fallout from this...

I have not as of yet. Just checked.

 

[sce]

I have not as of yet. Just checked.

It's the parent newsletter. I know I've gotten one each year but never really read it that closely. I am sure part of why this is being sent now is that they know they need to cover themselves, but at least they are sending out the info.

 

[profmom]

They sent out stuff like this a year or two ago detailing their safety procedures and advising parents to talk to their children about touching. Which was the "shocking revelation" prior to Marvin Sharp? I think it was around that time.

 

[twinmomma]

I also got something from USAG about talking to my kids about abuse and such. A pamphlet about six or so weeks ago.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

So a restraining order would not appear either?

Nope its not a criminal conviction.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

all i will say is this. the truth will eventually come out. USAG did nothing wrong and law enforcement supports how everything was ALL handled. so instead of throwing USAG under the bus...hold judgement until everything comes out.

as far as McCabe...he is a POS and always has been. anyone notice that he's on the banned list? in prison?? do you all think it was USAG or even membership that knew what he was doing??? NO! it took the FEDS to get him. just who do you all think USAG is?? do you think they are a law enforcement agency? just because he was heard saying completely inappropriate things does not mean, and at that time, that USAG could do a damn thing about it. in at least one gym...they fired his a** when it was learned what he said about another female athlete. yet, what would you have wanted any one of them to do? shoot him? cement boots and drop him in the Gulf?? well that probably would not have worked so well because a POS floats...

problem...McCabe is a POS. everyone knew it. he even had a restraining order against him. and WHAT is it exactly that everyone thinks USAG should have done about it in 1996? there was NOTHING in place in 1996 that USAG could have done with that. and why did he keep getting hired?? everyone knew he was a POS! why didn't all these whistle blowers notify law enforcement or the Feds??

does everyone understand that USAG is not a clearinghouse filter for POS's? the charter for USAG given to them by the USOC is to give the USOC readied athletes to represent America in Pan Am, World Championship and Olympic Game competitions. USAG has turned in to an organization that it was never intended to turn in to. and there is a process from the field to the office. it has evolved over 30 years. blame the USOC...it is THEY who have/had handcuffed the NGB's...not just USAG.

and whether anyone likes it or not...due process is not a game. this is still America. you just can't arbitrarily start witch hunts and start suspending or banning everyone for being POS's or just plain creepy. and NOW the USOC acts. it's about time. it should have been done 4 years ago. supposed to begin 1/17...and they still don't have a board.

no other NGB has done what USAG has done over the course of 30 years to try to keep POS's away from our industry. POS's are everywhere. youth sports and other activities where children are located are under assault from these POS maggots. due process is still the rule of law in America. and please don't expect USAG or any other NGB to solve this problem.

finally, if you take USAG completely out of the equation what would still have taken place in regards to everyone on the banned list? that's right. they were all criminally, civilly or both prosecuted and justice was served either by sentencing or with $$$. ALL of what has already taken place prior to today would have taken place without the oversight of USAG. period.

but the last couple of years?? USAG has some tools to expedite the process. and they still must follow the laws. i don't think any of you would want them to do otherwise. this is America. we have a constitution and a bill of rights. we have a criminal and civil justice system that work perfectly most of the time.

and while you're pondering all this...ask yourselves this... why did these gyms keep hiring these POS's when everybody knew that they were? and this includes almost all on the banned list with the exception of a handful??

wouldn't it be wonderful if we all had a crystal ball, a seer, something to predict this problem. regretfully, all we have is gut instinct. and for those familiar with business law...try to fire someone in your state based on "gut instinct" and see what agencies show up at your door...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

And when Kathy Kelly finally DOES respond to FBI requests for information,she totally throws CEO Steve Penny under the bus by saying "according to our by laws, the CEO is responsible for member misconducts. Our by-laws outline the procedures that we must follow regarding complaints" ...well maybe that is part of the problem...if your head honcho is the only one who can do this , but everyone else knows and can't act, maybe a new system should be looked at?

this is not accurate. i understand you're basing this on what you read. please read my post.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

The coaches.
And, because these coaches don't abuse every single child, there's a chorus of "but we like that coach" that seems to follow abuse accusations.
Is it still USAG policy that the complaint has to come from the parent / athlete?

ok. a coach inappropriately "touches" your child. either in or out of the gym. your child tells you. you have no "eyewitness" proof. only the word of your child.

do you understand that this kind of complaint should come from the parent and directly to law enforcement? and if USAG were to consider it, you think they should consider the complaint...say...if it came from a neighbor 3 times removed that lived 40 miles from your house?

of course it has to come from the child and parent. and that some will be on both sides after an abuse allegation are common. but that really has nothing to do with solving the problem does it?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I think these cases seem a lot more black and white from the outside looking in, but it's pretty clear cut that USAG has continuously acted in a negligent way when it comes to protecting child athletes. I completely understand that naming a person will have ripple effects as I've seen it first hand, and it's heartbreaking for the innocent who are impacted, but it's also necessary. I previously worked with some really spectacular coaches whose name was tarnished due to a parent being an offender on the permanently banned list and saw how it impacted them and their ability to do what they loved through no fault of their own, but unfortunately, that's just how it has to work to protect more children in the long-term. And that's not the fault of USAG, that's the fault of perpetrator engaging in an action that will impact far more than just him/her. I think USAG needs to re-prioritize and worry less about stepping on toes and more about protecting children.
I think some blame is also on individual gyms who think they can skate by doing the bare minimum in terms of background checks or employing best practices. I know so many gyms who only background check team coaches because that's all that is required by USAG or who are lax when it comes to employee interactions with students because they "trust" that employee or think that "nothing like that will happen here." I think there needs to be a full system reform, not just within USAG itself, but also in what they are asking of gym clubs.

they have NOT and did NOT.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

And there's this: "...a packet of papers ... had been placed on cars outside McCabe’s gym. It included copies of letters to USA Gymnastics about McCabe." Yet, at least one parent and presumably others left their kids at his gym.

they did. this is true. ask yourselves why they stayed? or should we blame USAG for that too?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

YES. Absolutely agreed.

I was not defending him or the process in any way. I was defending the kids/parents for not reporting - if parents don't know, they can't report. And it's possible the kids, while uncomfortable, didn't know if it was "harassment enough" to be reported.

Had I experienced THAT as a 16 year old, yes it would have been clearly harassment, but I also suspect I would have been too scared to report it. Would have worried about getting fired, and that "no one would believe me". I mean, look at the defenders of Nassar, etc, saying no way it happened.

But it sounds like there's some slippery slope here - as in first emails were friendly, then moved on to something inappropriate... Where was the line? When does the red flag first appear.

Again, I believe the vast majority of coaches are great. And I would hope none get falsely accused. But accusations should be treated seriously, whether that's discreetly, publicly, etc is thankfully not for me to decide.

and NO ONE reported that he had exposed himself. it became urban legend with this POS.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

That's what makes it difficult as a parent. I guess being a USAG member in good standing doesn't mean much. I will listen to other parents complaints regarding mistreatment of kids more closely now.

please understand that the USAG system has evolved. kids have never been safer in our industry...but things are not perfect. talk to the people that make our laws. and laws that are vastly different in each state that we live in.

do you know, that depending what state you live in...a coach gets arrested, charged, prosecuted and found guilty either by Judge or by jury.
did you know, that if an appeal is filed NGB's can't place the persons name on a public banned list?

or did you know, that in the not so distant old days due process meant that our Executive Director had to visit the prison where the POS was incarcerated and verify it was the right guy and confirm that the POS did what he was sentenced and imprisoned for??

in the not so distant old days, we were not compelled or required to have background checks? now USAG requires it every 2 years. and if your to be a member club owner that means you too! unless of course you find a loophole and put your gym's name in the name of someone else.

there are 3200 member clubs in the USA. but there are actually over 5200 gymnastics clubs. think...

if you do your time...and eventually come off the registry...just 10 years in some states...there is no law precluding the POS from opening a gymnastics club, karate school, dance studio, etc; and somehow someone thinks that this would be the responsibility of an NGB to stop this POS from opening a school when the NGB, and a NGB may have changed ED's several times, doesn't even know the POS...the gym...anything??

don't get me wrong...it's great that the paper did their piece. but it's old news...very old repetitive news. just the names have changed.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

That is really cool and does not exist in the us. Organizations can do background checks on people but nothing would show up if they are not convicted if a crime.

yep...works great...they've had their POS's come here and Canada.