Women Another USAG screw up

[profmom]

Why don't people tell the police? I had a lengthy post about that way back up in the thread.

Well, now it's looking like someone did "tell the police" about Larry Nassar. In 2004. If it does turn out that he is as guilty as he appears now to be, it seems that unfortunately, the 2004 complainant was not believed. See also Bill Cosby.

This is not a USAG problem. It is not a Michigan State problem. It is an American cultural problem and USAG just happens to be in the hot seat at the moment.

 

[sevenatenine2]

Dunno, can you speak about your opinion about how USAG handled the numerous claims of abuse by the Karolyi's (including, but not limited to, Moceanu's claims) over the years? Do you feel it wasn't their place to step in at that point or that the successes outweighed the criticisms? Thanks for your expertise.

stop it! they don't ignore it. USAG does NOT dictate to private businesses how they must run their gyms...those of you that think like the above do NOT understand what USAG is and what it can't or can do.

suffice...write a complaint that a coach threw a "mat" at a child's head, have it signed by the owner another witness or another coach...not some anonymous piece of tripe...and watch how fast USAG moves.

or better yet...if you've witnessed a mat being thrown at a child's head?!!...why in the hell haven't you contacted law enforcement? it's called assault. are you serious?? you have witnessed this and done NOTHING?

oh, i see. you want USAG to bring some punitive action against the coach. so then he leaves USAG and goes over to USAIGC, AAU, Turners, Sokols, Park District, etc; USAG IS NOT A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY! YOU HAVE TO GO TO LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT IF YOU WANT THIS POS PERMANENTLY AWAY FROM KIDS. GET IT?

they have already woken the heck up 30 years ago. and for those who are not aware. USAG/USGF was born in 1964. the first club opened in 1968. go back and read my previous posts on our history. we really didn't have an industry until after 1984 and Mary Lou. so if you are to compare what USAG has done...compare to other organizations that have been around twice as long...NCAA...AAU, etc; they have all followed our lead and not the other way around and even though many organizations have been around forever. this includes ALL the NGB's.

and every walk of life has had a scandal...or has one coming their way. you don't think it's unfortunate that our "scandals" only get attention WHEN we have the Olympics? like just right before or immediately after??

don't you think all the media outlets are guilty of withholding information that they time to our Olympic Games? they want to dirty everyone up...but only when we have visibility?? come folks...some of you need to wake the heck up.

 

[munchkin3]

There are always two sides to every story and a whole lot of information we are not getting (nor do I want to get it). I hope that our system will work and that the POSs will get what they deserve.....
My kids are my responsibility....no matter what. It is my responsibility to know whats going on with them at all times.....My kids come to me for ANYTHING. But i also know this is why they are not good targets. (Pls, im NOT trying to say that this horrobleness can't happen to anyone...)
My heart goes out to the kids, the families and all the good people at USAG....including you dunno....thank you for giving me a tiny bit of 'other side' insight.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Pretty sure that's a big part of the issue though -- silence. They've still been primarily silent on this current set of issues, save for a generic statement. Steve Penny may be the greatest leader in all of the land, but we'd have no way of knowing that as he's said nothing.

Personally, I'd love to know the facts.

NOT a big part of the issue.
1. it's in court. NO ONE speaks when they have been instructed that they can't.
2. we have privacy laws. then there is the issue of slander and defamation. nobody, not even USAG, can put out info about somebody/coach or suspend a coach or ban a coach if the info has not been vetted or due process has not been met.

in the not so distant past there was this coach from... he did a lot of bad things. even got a couple of gymnasts pregnant. was prosecuted and stripped of his credentials.
after he got out of prison...he SUES USAG in an attempt to get his credentials back. his wife now ran the gym and he wanted back on the USAG sanctioned floor so he could go to competitions.

WHAT???????????????????????? you say? USAG had to spend a boat load of money (our money by the way...you think they went to the sponsors and asked for a loan?) to defend the corporation's right to keep this POS off the playing field.

so then...you want USAG sued out of existence? everyone aware that they are just a 501c3 non profit organization?

 

[Seeker]

Based on all of the

NOT a big part of the issue.
1. it's in court. NO ONE speaks when they have been instructed that they can't.
2. we have privacy laws. then there is the issue of slander and defamation. nobody, not even USAG, can put out info about somebody/coach or suspend a coach or ban a coach if the info has not been vetted or due process has not been met.

in the not so distant past there was this coach from... he did a lot of bad things. even got a couple of gymnasts pregnant. was prosecuted and stripped of his credentials.
after he got out of prison...he SUES USAG in an attempt to get his credentials back. his wife now ran the gym and he wanted back on the USAG sanctioned floor so he could go to competitions.

WHAT???????????????????????? you say? USAG had to spend a boat load of money (our money by the way...you think they went to the sponsors and asked for a loan?) to defend the corporation's right to keep this POS off the playing field.

so then...you want USAG sued out of existence? everyone aware that they are just a 501c3 non profit organization?

I didn't say any of those things.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I have read your post, all of them, and from what I surmise, you are saying that no one in USAG (coaches, admin etc) is a mandated reporter like say a medical person or a teacher ...although ethically it's another story. So the only way Mc Cabe or any of the other POS out there get nailed is by the actual gymnast or parent who witnessed any inappropriate behavior reports it to law enforcement, and not their gym or USAG. I guess as a parent I always thought that hideous events like these started with reporting to your home gym and that they would take it further as they employ the creep but thank you for correcting me, and educating the parents on here, that any episode like Mc Cabe or Nassar have been accused of must be initiated with law enforcement from the get go.

And from reading the Kathy Kelly letter, I still think she skirts the issue by saying only the CEO can be the one to deal with these issues per the USAG bylaws...i see where you say that "it's inaccurate" but I'm reading what she says and that's what she says...so is Kathy Kelly misinformed and I as well by believing what she wrote? This part is confusing me...

because that is the way it works. and the CEO is then supposed to go the the Board of Directors and then the USOC. you see, there's the 2 documents called Title 9 AND the Amateur Sports Act. this protects the coaches also.

NOBODY worked harder than Kathy Kelly in keeping the POS's away from our industry and off the playing field. NOBODY. Kathy's letter is in response to acknowledging that they were now aware of the POS. but Kathy Kelly did not have the power or authority to do anything except pass it on to the appropriate personnel.

as i posted earlier. they knew this guy was a POS. most of us that have been around since dinosaurs knew he was a POS. but this POS didn't do anything to break the law. as i said, he even had a restraining order against him. Law Enforcement didn't arrest or charge him. AND TRO'S don't come up in a background check...background checks that the organization did not require at that time. NOW they do. memory serves it's been 8 years...i've had to submit 4 times and it's every 2 years.

as i said, thank the FEDS for busting this POS. read what he did. no one can honestly think that USAG could have hooked in to his computers/cameras that were in the locker room? and if the kids didn't know you can't expect them to tell someone.

all i'll say on this is...where ever there is a computer and a camera...they're gonna get you...eventually. USAG has no power or authority or approved resources to do what the FEDS do. USAG is not a law enforcement agency.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Dunno, can you speak about your opinion about how USAG handled the numerous claims of abuse by the Karolyi's (including, but not limited to, Moceanu's claims) over the years? Do you feel it wasn't their place to step in at that point or that the successes outweighed the criticisms? Thanks for your expertise.

you realize that was years a go? what "numerous claims of abuse"? little girls in pretty boxes post dated all the crap. and there really wasn't any metric in place to do anything about what was alleged they were doing. some is true...some urban legend.

parents kept sending their kids there and paying them money. they knew what was going on. many of them supported what was going on as "part of the process". so what was USAG to do about that? and Dom's parents hurt her the worst. but all parties have reconciled.

and when the names you have invoked wouldn't feed their athletes on trips (some of this was exaggerated) how could USAG do anything about that when they didn't learn it until later. but the other kids would sneak food to them. and most of them laughed about that as if it were a game..."they won't let me eat ice cream"..."okay, i'll sneak you in some ice cream". not saying this is right. just telling you this is the way it was. and the parents knew it.

finally, USAG can not dictate to a private business how they must do anything. they can't interfere in a private business lest they be sued for "tortious interference with a business".

USAG is a registered 501c3 and the NGB for gymnastics in the USA. their ONLY function in accordance with the USOC is to provide readied athletes and a USA team to represent the United States of America in international competitions, Pan American Games, World Championships and the Olympic Games.

i realize that there are certain people that want USAG to be the end all to all of the worlds ills. and they want to blame them and then sue them. but they aren't, can't be and will never be. unless, of course, they buy all the gyms in the USA and run them themselves.

Calgon...take me away....

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Based on all of the

I didn't say any of those things.

you said "silence" is a big part of the issue. i explained why there is silence. so...no one should blame USAG for any silence. blame the court.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Why don't people tell the police? I had a lengthy post about that way back up in the thread.

Well, now it's looking like someone did "tell the police" about Larry Nassar. In 2004. If it does turn out that he is as guilty as he appears now to be, it seems that unfortunately, the 2004 complainant was not believed. See also Bill Cosby.

This is not a USAG problem. It is not a Michigan State problem. It is an American cultural problem and USAG just happens to be in the hot seat at the moment.

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING....

 

[notthatmom]

thank you for recognizing how hard this all is.

It has been incredibly difficult for me to make any remarks on my "opinion" of USAG in regards to all of these allegations. Plain and simple, it's impossible for me to form an opinion because I don't have all the facts, the vast majority of us don't.

Many of you know who I happened to be having lunch with the day the news first broke, and hearing her side of it, her viewpoint, and her incredibly candid heartfelt opinion, really makes me realize how difficult this all is for everyone in the organization.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

and it's all still being investigated...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Why don't people tell the police? I had a lengthy post about that way back up in the thread.

Well, now it's looking like someone did "tell the police" about Larry Nassar. In 2004. If it does turn out that he is as guilty as he appears now to be, it seems that unfortunately, the 2004 complainant was not believed. See also Bill Cosby.

This is not a USAG problem. It is not a Michigan State problem. It is an American cultural problem and USAG just happens to be in the hot seat at the moment.

and here is my only comment on this. USAG is being blamed for not giving MSU a heads up that "Houston we have a problem". see the problem now?

 

[Seeker]

you said "silence" is a big part of the issue. i explained why there is silence. so...no one should blame USAG for any silence. blame the court.

I'm not talking about sealed court documents or any sort of confidential information governed by law.

If USAG had said even a tenth of what you just wrote (which could easily be achieved in one well crafted statement), it would probably go a very long way.

 

[notthatmom]

Why don't people tell the police? I had a lengthy post about that way back up in the thread.

Well, now it's looking like someone did "tell the police" about Larry Nassar. In 2004. If it does turn out that he is as guilty as he appears now to be, it seems that unfortunately, the 2004 complainant was not believed. See also Bill Cosby.

This is not a USAG problem. It is not a Michigan State problem. It is an American cultural problem and USAG just happens to be in the hot seat at the moment.

unfortunately, maybe when it was reported the police didn't have ample evidence to convict, and even if that shows up on a background check, the people who hired Nassar after the effect, either didn't think a background check was warranted or they felt they didn't need one since he came so highly recommended. Who knows. It's hard to believe that anyone who knew about this would just throw it to the wayside and hire him anyway. It's hard to speculate the what ifs and the why nots. We all can see now though that there are glitches, and those glitches need to be addressed and fixed.
What happened happened, I think all the powers that be can do now is do everything in their power to avoid this from ever happening again.

Your argument is totally on point btw.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I'm not talking about sealed court documents or any sort of confidential information governed by law.

If USAG had said even a tenth of what you just wrote (which could easily be achieved in one well crafted statement), it would probably go a very long way.

they can't.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

unfortunately, maybe when it was reported the police didn't have ample evidence to convict, and even if that shows up on a background check, the people who hired Nassar after the effect, either didn't think a background check was warranted or they felt they didn't need one since he came so highly recommended. Who knows. It's hard to believe that anyone who knew about this would just throw it to the wayside and hire him anyway. It's hard to speculate the what ifs and the why nots. We all can see now though that there are glitches, and those glitches need to be addressed and fixed.
What happened happened, I think all the powers that be can do now is do everything in their power to avoid this from ever happening again.

Your argument is totally on point btw.

well...in an ironic twist of events. "the guy" in charge of the investigation (prosecutor) gets busted in a prostitution sting and resigns. MSU says there was no finding. it's in the article. was the investigation completed? or was it interupted?? of course the article doesn't say.

and these types of investigations don't come up on background checks. Pleas and criminal convictions do. civil lawsuits do not. consider this. there is a coach/club owner being sued for sexual abuse in another state. it is a civil suit. as far as i can find, NO criminal charges have been brought against this guy. i'm sure someone turned this info in to USAG.

Now...who should do what about this lawsuit? should USAG spend membership money (this is everyone's money...club, coaches and parents) to initiate and conduct an investigation in to the "preponderance" and merits of this case? they can't just shoot the guy without due process. everyone see part of the problem? this lawsuit is in the civil system...not the criminal system. and what should happen at the conclusion of this suit? what if the records are sealed?? what should USAG do then??

this stuff goes on regularly. it's quite the conundrum. yet, USAG can only do so much. and is THIS what everyone would like USAG to do with their time and resources? i can tell you that they legally can't and the USOC would never let them be "storm chasers". neither would the Board of Directors.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

unfortunately, maybe when it was reported the police didn't have ample evidence to convict, and even if that shows up on a background check, the people who hired Nassar after the effect, either didn't think a background check was warranted or they felt they didn't need one since he came so highly recommended. Who knows. It's hard to believe that anyone who knew about this would just throw it to the wayside and hire him anyway. It's hard to speculate the what ifs and the why nots. We all can see now though that there are glitches, and those glitches need to be addressed and fixed.
What happened happened, I think all the powers that be can do now is do everything in their power to avoid this from ever happening again.

Your argument is totally on point btw.

additionally, even Nassar had to undergo a background check.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I don't think that we are talking about "normal" coaching practices here. I believe that we are referring to the point in time when something appears to be "mental toughness" training or "therapy" and then begins to cause physiological symptoms and then crosses into the realm of "crazy" and abusive here. Most parents know the difference, whether they act on it or not (or stay and leave their kid in an abusive situation) is up to them. Many people drink the koolaid in sports in general.

Trust me when I say that I know the difference and when I can tell you that I've seen it happen it has gone waaaayyyyy beyond the "normal" realm of what one would consider "good" coaching. Similar to what provokes cutting edge good medical treatment or what constitutes abuse?

Case in point: Dr Nassar was doing a similar technique that I am certified in. It is an acceptable practice when :1) patient receives informed consent 2) patient is given a thorough explanation of procedure along with contraindications, etc 3) patient if under 18 has an adult present and it has been explained to adult and child and is still required in a rare case. 4) examination gloves and proper medical cleanliness and safety techniques are followed.

Now, think about this, all techniques done were the same. So what makes one abuse and other not? When does it cross the professional line? See, what one sees as abusive someone else sees as "mental toughness". In the case above, it's abusive because "best practices" were not followed. I see it as if it causes unintended harm to an individual, that is where the line becomes crossed. We must make extra sure as professionals in any field that clear communication is present in anything we do.

I think most kids can handle "mental toughness" training, but what if that training entails a 5'10 tall grown adult standing over you (as a young child) with a fist in your face, bright red face, spit coming out of the mouth, yelling and screaming and using bullying techniques to get an end result? Is it then just good coaching or insanity???? So who would you say that is "normal" for say a 10 year old to endure?


I'm not talking about good normal coaching or practices here. I'm taking about a lot more than that. And no it doesn't need to be like that, my father and husband both elite level athletes never saw anything like they saw happen in "gym world."

and it will all come down to "prima facie". this is why everyone has to sit tight and let law enforcement do their jobs. this includes the media outlets.

 

[notthatmom]

well...in an ironic twist of events. "the guy" in charge of the investigation (prosecutor) gets busted in a prostitution sting and resigns. MSU says there was no finding. it's in the article. was the investigation completed? or was it interupted?? of course the article doesn't say.

and these types of investigations don't come up on background checks. Pleas and criminal convictions do. civil lawsuits do not. consider this. there is a coach/club owner being sued for sexual abuse in another state. it is a civil suit. as far as i can find, NO criminal charges have been brought against this guy. i'm sure someone turned this info in to USAG.

Now...who should do what about this lawsuit? should USAG spend membership money (this is everyone's money...club, coaches and parents) to initiate and conduct an investigation in to the "preponderance" and merits of this case? they can't just shoot the guy without due process. everyone see part of the problem? this lawsuit is in the civil system...not the criminal system. and what should happen at the conclusion of this suit? what if the records are sealed?? what should USAG do then??

this stuff goes on regularly. it's quite the conundrum. yet, USAG can only do so much. and is THIS what everyone would like USAG to do with their time and resources? i can tell you that they legally can't and the USOC would never let them be "storm chasers". neither would the Board of Directors.

I absolutely understand that USAG can only do so much, that's what makes this so difficult to "judge". What's admirable, is that now that this is all out in the open to everyone on the outside, they are properly doing what's right (at least it seems like they are). USAG sent out that newsletter that touched on the subject, and they did so very professionally in my opinion, as they should, as they have the right to. I think the main thing they should make clear is that if anyone has something they want to report (be that an athlete, a coach, or a parent) that they are able to do so knowing that if they do, their athletic career or their position in the organization will not be jeopardized. Many of the athletes who were abused may not have reported anything initially because they were in serious fear that they would be banned or ostracized due to their allegations, and no one should have to fear for that, ever.

 

[notthatmom]

additionally, even Nassar had to undergo a background check.

Good to know they do them for everyone regardless of their status, and I also wasn't sure what does and doesn't show up on background checks, I was just stating that we as outsiders have no idea what could have been known or not known, so there's no way we can blame them for employing someone with a history of abuse, just used that as an example to play decile advocate.