Back tumbling fear issues...help please.

[Deleted member D3987]

Dunno I know you've referred to this term before. Would you please explain it in more detail? Does "vestibular" mean it is a change they are going through such as growth spurt throwing off their balance? If so, will they eventually adjust to it over time? Or is it an ear/sinus infection effecting their balance? Would someone with permenant hearing loss be more prone to issues with going backwards? I know there are high level gymnast who are deaf. But I'm beginning to think that my DD's hearing loss(which I know can also effect balance) may be more of her problem. Maybe it's not only "fear" or "mental blocks" in my DD's case?

I have a lot of respect for your posts & I'm very interested in hearing you discuss this in greater detail. Thanks!

in furtherance of your post: growth spurts can affect the vestibular system as the system attempts to measure what it has to do in time and space coupled with the laws of physics that the children are placed under. the body is an axis. this axis changes daily regardless of growth spurts.

and obviously one can only plausibly discern that one's vestibular system would have to be affected somehow if the child is hearing impaired. but as you well know, whether it's due to God or in spite of one, the biology of the body has an empirical methodology of compensation and adaptation.

i do think though, because it's logical, that you will find the same amount problems or maybe none at all in both groups. tumbling and gymnastics are a bit extreme when the tender bodies and their vestibular systems begin moving in space.

imagine the downhill acrobat skier for a moment. those are ones that take off and flip and twist in the air. 30 feet from the ground. can you imagine just for a moment what kind of sensory input is being measured by one's vestibular system in less than 2 seconds? and now go back to the fighter pilot flying at Mach, rolling, and doing donuts. whew...

the mystery of human biology and its science are humbling, really.

p.s. to the moderators, since this subject comes up so often, maybe it can be placed permanently where people can easily access? as you know, i'm not tech savvy with stuff like that...so if there is a way to accomplish that i haven't a clue how.

 

[bogwoppit]

I can at least work out how to sticky this. Thanks for the explanation, it totally explains my ski issues.

 

[shadow]

everyone suggestions have been really helpful and i thank you for that!!^^
what about getting over the fear of flyaways? No matter how many drills or spots she has, she will not let go of the bar. She has been working on front flyaways. so is it the fear of not being able to see the ground when she lets go of the bar and goes backwards stopping her?

 

[gymdog]

Sorry, I might have missed this, but are you a coach or a parent? I'm just not sure how to advise.

Sometimes when a fear issue is spreading (due to reasons mentioned by dunno, or if it can be traced to a bad fall or something) we need to "back off" in some sense until confidence is regained. Sometimes an approach is taken to try to push the child through the fear and that may get them to do the things "sometimes" in the short term but it can lead to more balking and further reduce confidence. A rule of them for me is that a child doesn't do something once, we try to correct it and try again (if safe). If they can't complete the skill with minimal help a second time (either due to balking or inability) then they need to take a step back because we are wasting time repeatedly trying to do something they can't do. Of course in the middle of the season no one wants to do this, it can mean missing competitions or scratching events, etc, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do for safety's sake and also overall confidence.

I tell the kids don't even start if you know you're not able to do it. Tell me you can't. Every time they balk they lose confidence and question whether they will do it the next time. It's another step back.

So she needs to work where she is capable of. If that means tap swing to flat back on a soft mat in the pit, then that's where she is. That may mean she needs to scratch bars or omit a skill. It takes time and patience to overcome fears like these. On floor working on sets, jump backs, just sets of standing BHSs, whatever she will do and working up from there. I do think spotting can be an important component in vestibular issues because it can allow kids to use more proprioception feedback to orient themselves in space - however there are some caveats to that with creating dependence and also it's more effective in some cases and some skills than others. With more serious vestibular issues, the gymnast can have issues like feeling like she is "twisting" when she goes for a regular BHS, a regular back tuck. This causes balking and fear. Especially on a salto using a spot on the set could improve proprioception and help the gymnast to complete the skill. This is advice that was given to me by a gymnastics coach with a background in biomechanics and related issues.

Sometimes you will see girls who can do a double full but are having issues doing a back layout. That can be due to the above issue where they feel like they're twisting when they do a non-twisting skill and freak out - either just do a twist or balk (can be dangerous either way). The expert I mentioned above advised that in some extreme cases in order to continue at that level of tumbling when these issues are presenting and it's not due to growth, vestibular therapy might be needed because there might be a fundamental imbalance between the levels of something on each side of the body (sorry I can't explain in more detail, I don't know exactly what, but it would be fairly unusual for that to be needed to solve the problem).

 

[shadow]

Sorry, I might have missed this, but are you a coach or a parent? I'm just not sure how to advise.

Im a coach. you didnt miss it^^ sorry i didnt mention it earlier
I can try to go back to the basics on these skills. Its very difficult right now because it is during the season and she has this problem on the bars, beam and floor, not just one event. also, our head coach/ owner will not let her scratch or try something else, he just gets frustrated and conitnues to punish her for bulking or not going because he knows that she can do it, just understands why she wont. It seems that she is pressured at meets and practice and i think that is only making it worse.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

Every time they balk they lose confidence and question whether they will do it the next time. It's another step back.

...so true!!!

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

Im a coach. you didnt miss it^^ sorry i didnt mention it earlier
I can try to go back to the basics on these skills. Its very difficult right now because it is during the season and she has this problem on the bars, beam and floor, not just one event. also, our head coach/ owner will not let her scratch or try something else, he just gets frustrated and conitnues to punish her for bulking or not going because he knows that she can do it, just understands why she wont. It seems that she is pressured at meets and practice and i think that is only making it worse.

Unfortunately, he is creating a mess for himself w/this gymnast if he can't let up.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Im a coach. you didnt miss it^^ sorry i didnt mention it earlier
I can try to go back to the basics on these skills. Its very difficult right now because it is during the season and she has this problem on the bars, beam and floor, not just one event. also, our head coach/ owner will not let her scratch or try something else, he just gets frustrated and conitnues to punish her for bulking or not going because he knows that she can do it, just understands why she wont. It seems that she is pressured at meets and practice and i think that is only making it worse.

this is the wrong approach! and it doesn't matter if he thinks she can do it only that SHE knows she can. geesh.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Sorry, I might have missed this, but are you a coach or a parent? I'm just not sure how to advise.

Sometimes when a fear issue is spreading (due to reasons mentioned by dunno, or if it can be traced to a bad fall or something) we need to "back off" in some sense until confidence is regained. Sometimes an approach is taken to try to push the child through the fear and that may get them to do the things "sometimes" in the short term but it can lead to more balking and further reduce confidence. A rule of them for me is that a child doesn't do something once, we try to correct it and try again (if safe). If they can't complete the skill with minimal help a second time (either due to balking or inability) then they need to take a step back because we are wasting time repeatedly trying to do something they can't do. Of course in the middle of the season no one wants to do this, it can mean missing competitions or scratching events, etc, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do for safety's sake and also overall confidence.

I tell the kids don't even start if you know you're not able to do it. Tell me you can't. Every time they balk they lose confidence and question whether they will do it the next time. It's another step back.

So she needs to work where she is capable of. If that means tap swing to flat back on a soft mat in the pit, then that's where she is. That may mean she needs to scratch bars or omit a skill. It takes time and patience to overcome fears like these. On floor working on sets, jump backs, just sets of standing BHSs, whatever she will do and working up from there. I do think spotting can be an important component in vestibular issues because it can allow kids to use more proprioception feedback to orient themselves in space - however there are some caveats to that with creating dependence and also it's more effective in some cases and some skills than others. With more serious vestibular issues, the gymnast can have issues like feeling like she is "twisting" when she goes for a regular BHS, a regular back tuck. This causes balking and fear. Especially on a salto using a spot on the set could improve proprioception and help the gymnast to complete the skill. This is advice that was given to me by a gymnastics coach with a background in biomechanics and related issues.

Sometimes you will see girls who can do a double full but are having issues doing a back layout. That can be due to the above issue where they feel like they're twisting when they do a non-twisting skill and freak out - either just do a twist or balk (can be dangerous either way). The expert I mentioned above advised that in some extreme cases in order to continue at that level of tumbling when these issues are presenting and it's not due to growth, vestibular therapy might be needed because there might be a fundamental imbalance between the levels of something on each side of the body (sorry I can't explain in more detail, I don't know exactly what, but it would be fairly unusual for that to be needed to solve the problem).

excellent descriptions of just some of the vestibular issues that athletes must deal with.

 

[gymdog]

Im a coach. you didnt miss it^^ sorry i didnt mention it earlier
I can try to go back to the basics on these skills. Its very difficult right now because it is during the season and she has this problem on the bars, beam and floor, not just one event. also, our head coach/ owner will not let her scratch or try something else, he just gets frustrated and conitnues to punish her for bulking or not going because he knows that she can do it, just understands why she wont. It seems that she is pressured at meets and practice and i think that is only making it worse.

If you can have a talk as a group with the coaches who work with this gymnast I would present it as a safety issue. Safety is the number 1 priority and to have a kid balking on something when speed and rotation is involved is NOT safe.

The second thing that needs to happen is that the gymnast and coaches need to make a plan. The gymnast needs to have input to make the plan realistic and to put everyone on the same page. I would recommend tying specific goals to specific times with an end goal of being able to do the routine skills by x date. The parents need to be aware of this plan and the timeline for when (or if) the gymnast can compete this season. The plan might need to be re-evaluated or adjusted before it is completed but I feel it's important to unite everyone on the same page with some concrete steps and goals to avoid the feelings of helplessness and frustration that crop up on all sides when these issues occur.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

right again!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[gymjourneymom]

this is the wrong approach! and it doesn't matter if he thinks she can do it only that SHE knows she can. geesh.

Dunno, I REALLY want you to coach my DD!

 

[gym law mom]

Mine too??? Pretty simple requests--coach who knows the CoP, cares and can teach/spot L9 and up.

 

[melmonette]

Omg this is so Emily and I just knew everytime
Emily has a growth spurt she goes through this same mental block
With her round off backhandspring connection
Emily is repeating level 6 because she has not
Tumbled bAckwards in a meet since last December
She is finally coming out of it if any of you
Have been following my YouTube or facebook
Our next meet is Sunday nov 21st and as of today
We are competing all 4 events for the first time since
Her level state 6 meet last December
I am very proud of her and her team was ecstatic
On Tuesday when she was connecting the whole
Level 6 back tumbling pass and now she did
32 back walkovers on beam tonight
Thankfully the flyaway has been strong and getting
Stronger
Emily too is An amazing front tumbler with all the
Up to level 8 front tumbling skills
I will have her coaches read this post as I have
Said many times her block is always directly related
To growth spurts and I swear when too many people are tumbling around her
As if she can't shut off her peripheral vision while tumbling
And thinks others will tumble right into her while she is tumbling
Parents with kids of this issue I am so glad I am not alone because I often feel like it at gymnastics while we watch so many pass her by

 

[shadow]

thank you to all who gave suggestions and helpful advise. i was able to try some today and we actually made progress. we got our gymnastics first to tumble into a resi pit with a spot then after a couple of passes she did it by herself. after she was willing to try a pass on the floor on to a mat. she wouldn't do a back tuck at first to the first 15 or so passes i physically picked her up out of her rebound and flipped her over my shoulder. i know it wasn't solution but she knew what was coming and it got the job done. eventually, i was ready to spot and she set way above my head and did a back tuck. now she has them back every time. so thank you again!!!!! she feels much better about herself and us coaches feel better about it too.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

YAY!!! I love it when they progress from fear issues!

 

[CamSeawind]

This has happened twice in my gym in the past year and the 2 girls have been doing better
One of my friends cannot backward flyaway so she pushed through levels 7 and 8 and now does a front flyaway in level 9
My other friend also competed a year without a back tumbling pass (took a deduction for no back pass, in level 7 the deduction will be more as they will be missing the requirement for a layout that doesn't exist in level 8 and above), and now she does a back pass with no back handspring. EXAMPLE: Round off, one and a half twist, punch front
Use pits, mats, spots, and drills, go back to easy stuff

 

[shadow]

One of my friends cannot backward flyaway so she pushed through levels 7 and 8 and now does a front flyaway in level 9

what did she do in level 7 for a dismount then? i have a girl that will not flyaway so we are starting to work on front flyaways. she is a level 7 also

 

[taximom]

Omg this is so Emily and I just knew everytime
Emily has a growth spurt she goes through this same mental block
With her round off backhandspring connection
Emily is repeating level 6 because she has not
Tumbled bAckwards in a meet since last December
She is finally coming out of it if any of you
Have been following my YouTube or facebook
Our next meet is Sunday nov 21st and as of today
We are competing all 4 events for the first time since
Her level state 6 meet last December
I am very proud of her and her team was ecstatic
On Tuesday when she was connecting the whole
Level 6 back tumbling pass and now she did
32 back walkovers on beam tonight
Thankfully the flyaway has been strong and getting
Stronger
Emily too is An amazing front tumbler with all the
Up to level 8 front tumbling skills
I will have her coaches read this post as I have
Said many times her block is always directly related
To growth spurts and I swear when too many people are tumbling around her
As if she can't shut off her peripheral vision while tumbling
And thinks others will tumble right into her while she is tumbling
Parents with kids of this issue I am so glad I am not alone because I often feel like it at gymnastics while we watch so many pass her by

This sounds so much like my daughter! Corky seems to have come out of the backwards thing fort the moment anyway. Currently tumbling RO-BHS_BL and doing a back LO flyaway. She never warms up her tumbling at a meet too many girls on the floor she doesn't know or trust if they will go or wait for her. Best of luck in the upcoming season Corky and I are cheering for your daughter!

 

[lilla834]

Lots of Luck!

Its a fear that some gymnast get...
Have her do lots of backbends on floor, an maybe (if you dont have one), invest in a Beam pad... this way she can practice on the floor with the feel of the beam...
I hope this helped!

Lots of Luck!