Cheer Tumbling vs. Gymnastics Tumbling

[KBT]

KBT, this was part of my earlier reply. If I recall correctly you're involved with high school gymnastics? I think coming from this perspective a lot of things make a lot more sense. Basically I think a lot of people are making a comparison like high school cheerleader to JO gymnast, and that's not really fair. There are really different goals in the program. If you look at high school gymnastics, yes much of it is not the same quality of JO gymnastics but that is not the goal of the program and there are ways to teach skills safely without the athlete being perfect on form and amplitude. The goals of all star cheerleading are different from JO gymnastics as well, and there are different programs doing different things.

Good point about the drastically different goals of the two sports. I see *most* high school cheerleading as the equivalent of USAG Level 4 or even rec gymnastics. And I would agree this isn't high level "hard" stuff, but your rec kids learning cartwheels and back hip circles aren't really doing "hard" gymnastics, either. When I was at that level I never considered myself a gymnast - I was someone who did gymnastics. It wasn't until around Level 7 skills that I started considering myself a gymnast, when I felt I was good enough to really identify with it rather than having it just be an activity I participated in.

If you get into the high levels of cheerleading like college cheer or competitive teams which would be the equivalent of USAG Levels 8-10, cheerleading is tough. Participants are in excellent physical shape, workout many hours a week - I would absolutely consider it a sport. Just because there are so many people who dabble in cheerleading at the lower levels doesn't mean that's representative of what the sport really is.

 

[gracefulone]

What's really interesting though, is that professional cheerleaders are just really a poms or dance team-no tumbling, no stunts!!

Also, to add to KBT, there's this show called cheerleader U and they feature college teams. I watched some of the University of Kentucky one and it was intense! There was another one, cheerleader nation, that was about a HS in Kentucky, and they were really good! They had 4 girls on their HS team who would do fulls in competition.

 

[midwestgymmom]

I loved watching Cheer nation!! I miss that show

 

[ANDYet]

First post ever
I joined this board specifically for this thread, I trained in Acro gymnastics for years until an injury meant I couldn't continue the sport. Now I participate in Competitive All Star Cheer and coach Artistic Gymnastics level 4 and 5 (mostly floor).

I just felt like I should point out a few things.
1- All Star cheer and HS cheer are two COMPLETELY different things. Not even close. When I coach HS cheer tumbling, if they land on their feet and aren't hurt then they were successful. Most (MOST) HS cheer teams are like this, if it can hit it's fine.
All Star cheer, however, is different. I feel like they focus more on tumbling being clean and tight. It's not that they don't focus on form, it's just that their form is different.
2- Cheer Tumbling and Gymnastics tumbling are two COMPLETELY different things. In the same way you wouldn't compare the layout of an acro dancer to a artistic gymnast; you shouldn't really compare the layout of a cheerleader to a gymnast. They just really aren't the same thing.
3- Cheerleaders do very difficult things (as do gymnasts), but they do different things. On my cheer team there is a girl that does a full and a half through to a double punch double. A boy who standing doubles. 6 people who do a toe touch standing full (pretty much a stradle jump full), and 7 people that do two standing back handsprings to a double full, Oh, and 2 people who do two back handsprings to a whip punch double.
Also, all of the team can do 3 jumps to a standing tuck and (at least) a running RO BHS Layout.

I'm not saying that cheer is harder, they're just different. Gymnasts do tumbling that cheerleaders don't, but cheerleaders do tumbling that gymnasts don't.
It's kind of apples to oranges...

For reference, a good level 5 cheerleading team:
2011 Battle Under The Big Top: Stingray Allstars - Orange (Day 2) - YouTube

 

[Deleted member D3987]

say what you may...better said that cheerleaders do tumbling that gymnasts WON'T. sometimes, because you can doesn't mean you should.

as your reference showed, all of that done on a wood floor. parkour in a skirt with gym shoes.

cheer now leads all other activities in reported trips to emergency rooms across the USA. cheer also leads all other activities in fatalities. that's all.

 

[ANDYet]

say what you may...better said that cheerleaders do tumbling that gymnasts WON'T. sometimes, because you can doesn't mean you should.

as your reference showed, all of that done on a wood floor.

cheer now leads all other activities in reported trips to emergency rooms across the USA. cheer also leads all other activities in fatalities. that's all.

They're not on wood floor.... All competitive cheer performs on spring floor. High school and college perform on dead floor (a matt on top of wood), but they are not allowed to double (and in the case of HS, they can't do 90% of the stunts all star does).
Also, many of the injuries in cheer come, not from tumbling, but from the other things they do (if you're throwing a girl 20 feet in the air, you're taking some risks).
I don't really see how they are doing any tumbling that is overtly more risky than gymnasts. Angel Rice (the black girl) does a pass any good power tumbler would (notice I said would) do. In fact, most of the tumbling in the video is things gymnasts would do, just not put together in that way/order.

In my experience most of the injuries come from stunting (generally pyramid) and sync tumbling (when the whole team tumbles at once, if one person is off it dominoes).

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i stand corrected. after closer observation, i can see a floor system at the outer edges.

not ALL competitive cheer performs on a spring floor. but that is a standard that they are striving for nationally. the lawsuits bare this out. and some high schools and colleges ARE performing on spring floors in spite of their rules in some parts of the country.

most other cheer groups use "flexroll" as the floor of choice in lieu of a spring floor. better than cement or wood. or grass for that matter.

most of the injuries in cheer come from tumbling. the lawsuits bare this out.

most of the catastrophic injuries come from "stunts" and "fliers". the lawsuits bare this out. and 20 feet in the air is about as high as the child was thrown in to the air in Connecticut. punctured her lung and spleen. she is deceased. if you are a reasonable person and coach, you can't agree with those risks where proper matting is not used.

and sync tumbling is like the old/new trampoline parks. collision injuries are the most common. and again, the lawsuits bare this out.

and power tumblers perform on a rod floor. i'm sure you know this piece of equipment.

edited: that was impolite of me. welcome to the CB.

 

[CoachTodd]

I have to disagree that H.S. cheer is different than all star cheer. I've had to correct the same technique issues from girls on both sides. I don't disagree that there may be some cheer tumbling coaches out there that know what there are doing, but from my experience, there is too large of a percentage of them that have no clue. They learned from a bad coach and use the same methods to teach their kids. I know there are some bad coaches on the gymnastics side as well but the progression of the levels help keep that in check for the most part.
Skill difference are basically determined by "is this skill worth doing" in gymnastics. If it doesn't add any point value, there isn't any reason to do it. If it isn't being done correctly, it shouldn't be done. The cheer side has a "chuck it and we'll fix it later" mentality. I've had a few kid come to me with a "standing full" and they couldn't even do a proper layout. I couldn't help but wonder who the heck let this kid twist before they knew the proper technique for a flip.
In the gymnastics world a full twisting layout is a full twisting layout. The value for doing it standing or from a round-off back handspring is the same so not many coaches have that as a goal for their kids.
I'm a little sensitive on this particular subject because I've had a few cheer gyms ruin the tumbling of kids that I've worked with. They did this to a point where the kids started paying extra to come see me at my gym while they took classes at the other gym. It took one poor girl 6 months to fix her round-off after one week at cheer camp messed it up.

Welcome to CB .

 

[Deleted member D3987]

that's right CoachTodd. if it walks like a duck...and quacks like a duck...the athletes in that video were all gymnasts at one time. you can tell by their technique. and a flip flop is a flip flop is a flip flop and so forth...

 

[bogwoppit]

Our all star cheer teams tend to practice on flexi roll mats and then compete on gymnova sprung floors, now that causes injury all by itself. Cheer is odd/ I sent my cheering DD back to her gym coach for tumbling training on a sprung floor with safer training techniques. The "chuck it for cheer" mentality is frightening.

 

[SuperGirlmlm]

I'm in gymnastics, and a level 9. My coach NEVER EVER pushed any of us into doing skills. He only encourages us to do them. When your rushed into skills, you can devolop fears of them.

 

[ANDYet]

I cant tell you about most of the team, but I can tell you that Angel and Hailey and Christa (Three of the better tumblers) were never gymnasts. Most of the girls on the team just grew up in the program.
Again, I'm not trying to discredit gymnastics, I just thought it was important to point out the differences. Yes there are poor coaches in cheer. USASF is working day and night to fix that. But again I would like to stress that catastrophic injuries generally come from the stunt and basket portions. I don't know about law suits, but a simple youtube search of cheerleaders getting hurt will almost always take you to a basket or stunt.
Also, ALL competitive (all star) cheerleaders perform on spring floor. Most (A solid 95%) practice on spring floor. It is illegal to host a competition without spring floors. HS and Colleges are the teams on dead floor.

These girls are on dead matt
Johns Creek 2009-2010 - YouTubeost of them came from ACE of Atlanta or Georgia Allstars

 

[CoachTodd]

You do know gymnastics was originally done on something similar to wrestling mats right? I would also put a gymnasts against a cheer tumbler technique wise at almost any level. I do know the cheer groups are looking for a way to make sure safety is more of a focus as well as technique. I honestly think there should be individual compulsory meets for cheer to make sure they can safely do skills before they are allowed to chuck them in a team competition. I'm sure it will never happen but it's a thought.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I cant tell you about most of the team, but I can tell you that Angel and Hailey and Christa (Three of the better tumblers) were never gymnasts. Most of the girls on the team just grew up in the program.
Again, I'm not trying to discredit gymnastics, I just thought it was important to point out the differences. Yes there are poor coaches in cheer. USASF is working day and night to fix that. But again I would like to stress that catastrophic injuries generally come from the stunt and basket portions. I don't know about law suits, but a simple youtube search of cheerleaders getting hurt will almost always take you to a basket or stunt.
Also, ALL competitive (all star) cheerleaders perform on spring floor. Most (A solid 95%) practice on spring floor. It is illegal to host a competition without spring floors. HS and Colleges are the teams on dead floor.

These girls are on dead matt
Johns Creek 2009-2010 - YouTubeost of them came from ACE of Atlanta or Georgia Allstars

you have most of what you posted right. you don't work in the law so i'll cut you slack. USASF and AACCA are working diligently daily. unless you travel the country, "all star" does compete on non-spring floor in some parts of the country. "illegal" is the wrong word. it is contrary to their rules and policies. illegal connotes breaking a law. they are not breaking the law if they don't use a spring floor. and SOME HS's and colleges ARE using spring floors. but most use flex roll.

and what you call "basket" & "stunts" are what some of us call 'fliers'. and there are "poor" coaches in gymnastics also...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

You do know gymnastics was originally done on something similar to wrestling mats right? I would also put a gymnasts against a cheer tumbler technique wise at almost any level. I do know the cheer groups are looking for a way to make sure safety is more of a focus as well as technique. I honestly think there should be individual compulsory meets for cheer to make sure they can safely do skills before they are allowed to chuck them in a team competition. I'm sure it will never happen but it's a thought.

tumbling was originally performed on horse hair mats prior to 1971. resilite (wrestling mat) came in 1971-1972 about the same time as Nissen came out with the 40X40 vinyl floor mat with 1 1/4 ethafoam inside the vinyl. 1 inch springs came in 1979. and the 4 inch spring after 1988 Seoul.

 

[bribri514]

I was a high school, L 10 JO and D1 college gymnast and a varsity high school cheerleader so I have a pretty good experience with all the different levels. I agree with everyone who is saying that cheer tumbling is rushed (both in learning the skills and executing them) and performed on less than safe surfaces. Especially dunno. I was a flyer and came closer to major injuries than during my 14 year competitive gymnastics career. I love cheerleading, don't get me wrong! I just think cheer could benefit from some MAJOR standardization at the high school and all star level, and proper tumbling coaching. My HS cheer coach actually ended up having me help teach tumbling. One of the big things I saw was girls who weren't in shape (not obese, all body shapes just not fit) wanting to do skills that require flexibility and tone. My cousin was a gymnast (she went through L 8) and a HS and all-star cheerleader. She says the same thing about all-star cheer having tumbling problems. I think the major roadblock though is it takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to properly tumble. Girls who start cheer don't want to wait that long to learn a BHS, I can see why they go to gyms and demand to learn it in a week and then end up chucking Hail Marys (what we call some cheer tumbles), but that doesn't make it right. Cheer attracts generally older girls (though younger girls are getting more and more involved) and they want to be doing skills that take years of overall body training in gymnastics. That's hard, but there's got to be a happy medium between what happens with girls chucking sloppy dangerous skills and making them go through years of gymnastics training. I think that would help improve the safety and image of both levels of cheerleading.

 

[Cheernastics mom]

I have 1 cheerleader and 1 gymnast. The first time we walked into a cheer gym after years of gymnastics, I was surprised at the lack of form. In our experience cheer pushes faster to “throw” skills. WAY more mental blocks occur and my daughter had an injury strictly related to poor form. “ I had to take her to a gymnastics coach to fix”. However, I have been reminded that I must keep in mind that a big part of cheer is to be in sync with each other, clean routines, they are tumbling sometimes after sprinting for 2 min. This might require piking a layout down faster. Starting tumbling in a way that doesn’t support power (coning)- causing low tucks. Shorter BHS if needed to stay together. The two sports have different goals. Some cheer tumble coaches are good. My experience is gymnastics coaches have way more progression drill in their toolbox they can use.