WAG Class of 2023 first verbal

[Seeker]

here kids are encouraged to do what suits their abilities. some go into training on the job at age 15 after year 9. they get paid for three years by the company they are training with and go to a public "vocational school" for one day every week where they get some further general eductaion (german, religious instruction, math, english, social studies...) but mainly attend classes about the job they are training for. they pass a state exam after two or three years (depending on performance and ecuation before starting the training on the job). there is such an exam for every job thinkable (and new ones all the time), like for car mechanics, hair dressers, kindergarten teachers, lots of different things (kindergarten teachers do train 5 years so, execption of the rule). so most kids do not attend college here (around 60% do not). they still get a structured education that qualifys them for a job. and they get paid to train, they do not have to pay to train.

Similar to the original topic here, 15 seems to be rather young to be making a decision about what you’ll do for the rest of your life. What happens if they change their mind and want to go to University? Can students move back over to that path if they want to?

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

here kids are encouraged to do what suits their abilities. some go into training on the job at age 15 after year 9. they get paid for three years by the company they are training with and go to a public "vocational school" for one day every week where they get some further general eductaion (german, religious instruction, math, english, social studies...) but mainly attend classes about the job they are training for. they pass a state exam after two or three years (depending on performance and ecuation before starting the training on the job). there is such an exam for every job thinkable (and new ones all the time), like for car mechanics, hair dressers, kindergarten teachers, lots of different things (kindergarten teachers do train 5 years so, execption of the rule). so most kids do not attend college here (around 60% do not). they still get a structured education that qualifys them for a job. and they get paid to train, they do not have to pay to train.

What country are you from? It sounds interesting

 

[kecks]

Similar to the original topic here, 15 seems to be rather young to be making a decision about what you’ll do for the rest of your life. What happens if they change their mind and want to go to University? Can students move back over to that path if they want to?

...it is a little complicated.

typically kids get sorted into gymnasium, the type of public school leading to "abitur" (which is the main way to get into a college) after year 4 (bavaria, my home state) or year 6 (berlin f.e.). in bavaria you need certain grades to get into gymnasium (leading to college, f.e. jobs like doctor, teacher, lawyer...), certain (not as but nearly as high) grades to get into realschule (less demanding, leading to vocational training for mostly business or office jobs after year 10) and everybody else attends mittelschule (more practical stuff, leading to vocational training after year 9 for jobs like hair dresser, car mechanic...). (there is also lots of special education stuff for kids with specific challenges; usually they go to special schools, some attend regular school with assistence.) parents can choose which school their kid should attend but only if the grades are there or an entrance exam is passed (which happens not very often; the kids passing tend to give up during year 5 or 6 at gymnasium because it is academically too demanding for them, they can not keep up). teachers are trained very differently for these different types of school.

there are also private schools (state funded up to 80% of their budget) but only if they have a special profile, like religios school, montessori, waldorf and the like. they usually have fees.
these can chose students on their own but can only do their own "abitur" test after year 12 if they adhere to the state grade cuts. if they do not their students have to test afetr year 12 at a public school near them and usually (at least very often) these kids fail or do very badly even if they pass.

so let's say you attend "mittelschule", went into vocational training to be a doctor's asissent after year 9, passed the vocational exam after three years. you are now around 18 or 19 years old and want to go to college. you now also have a certificate which is aequivalent to those of the students who finished "realschule" after year 10 successfully. this gets you into a public school which leads to a simpler version of "abitur" after 2 years. you can then go on and attend a "fachhochschule", these are collees specialising in more practical, less academic studies. typically they produce social workers, engineers, lots of different things. you can also stay another year and then pass general "abitur" and after that you are free to attend any college you can get into (colleges choose their students. some take anyone, some have very specific entrance exams, others select depending on abitur grades...; but never money decides). of course you have to be able to produce the necessary academic work. many are not. which is no problem, they are are already trained professionals.

this is only one example how one student could get into college if not being selected for "gymnasium" at age 10. there are many more. in general you can and will get into college if you want to, work hard and have the necessary academic talent even at age 15, 18, 30, 50 or 70 or whatever.

 

[kecks]

What country are you from? It sounds interesting

germany, see profile .

 

[kecks]

oh, and the above is only the state of bavaria. public schools in other states are very different, depending on the regional government and election results. moving in germany with kids is a challenge, school system can be really different at the new place. also homeschooling is illegal here.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

also homeschooling is illegal here.

This might be a european thing then. It's also prohibited in the Netherlands. People get around this by creating their own schools

 

[Muddlethru]

You left out Stanford, UCLA (ranked higher than the other 2 public schools you mentioned), Univeristy of Washington

I was merely citing examples and was not trying to be absolute.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Similar to the original topic here, 15 seems to be rather young to be making a decision about what you’ll do for the rest of your life. What happens if they change their mind and want to go to University? Can students move back over to that path if they want to?

On Australia, they can and do all the time. It’s very common to return to University as a mature age students. When you look at groups of university students you usually see about 1/3 of them are mature age, who have been out there to experience life and now have decided to come back and study.

The mature age students do very well, they have a much clearer idea of what they want to do with their lives and their maturity and life experience makes studying easier.

There are plenty of options to study part time, or in the evenings or even online for University to allow adults to do it. Or if they choose to stop work and study full time, the government will provide them with payments called Austudy, so they can live and eat, when they no,longer have their parents support, like they might if they were younger.

Our University education is also quite heavily government funded, so that also makes it more possible for adults to return to study, while they no longer have the support of their parents.

 

[profmom]

Oh, Bog, I have plenty of respect for McGill, UBC, Toronto, and other fine Canadian institutions. What I probably should have said is that US institutions are among the best in the world. And we agree completely that taking out $160K in loans for an undergraduate degree is foolish. My point is that it's completely unnecessary for most US students, because almost everyone has a range of decent to excellent options that are far more affordable. The US does have a number of institutions that by any measure are among the best in the world, but there are just so many very good institutions beyond that as well. My oldest son was offered the opportunity to pay &70K a year to attend a very fine small liberal arts college. He opted instead to attend one of our public institutions as an in-state student, having received a complete tuition remission and a position in the honors college. I am kind of gobsmacked by some of the choices his friends (and their parents) have made.

Sure, wanting to do gym cuts down on the sheer number of options, but there are still a good number out there, and for some, that may mean balancing ambitions for doing gym with choices about college that have longer term consequences. Just consider yourselves fortunate that you're not facing this process with a boy who really wants to do college gym. I will definitely be dragging kiddo to Seattle for a look see sometime in the next few years, as I don't see him as a likely contender for one of the tiny number of roster spots in an NCAA program. If he keeps his grades up and can do about as well as his sibs on standardized tests, I think he has a decent chance at an academic scholarship there that would bring the price down to the range of what we'd pay if he went public in-state here. UW (pronounced you dub to cognoscenti) is a superb school with world class faculty. I am also really hoping that SoCal United continues to grow over the next few years as there are so many well known and not so well known options in that area (any Harvey Mudd alums out there?). Just keep in mind that the absolute best, most wonderful, and perfect school for your kid may be one that you've never encountered or considered.

My question about the European model is how frequently people who've gone through this system change careers. Part of the reason that college is so prevalent in the US is that Americans often do not stay with one field for their entire careers. Increasingly too in the US, we see major disparities in life outcomes between people who've gotten at least an associate's degree and those who have not. (I'm not saying this is a good thing, nor that it is the fault of people who have not been able to get a degree.)

 

[Aussie_coach]

It must actually be very intimidating and overwhelming for families to face the college selection process, which such a sheer volume of options. Given that so many US students go away to College and live on Campus, it really makes the options endless as you can go to any corner of the country.

Our students (Australia) tend to live at home while attending University. So really they are limited by the course they want to do and where it is offered, close to where their parents live.

Australian model is very similar to the US, you do a specific degree, leading to specific career, not the more open type degrees they have in the US. And people still do change careers quite frequently. Sometimes the skills they’ve gained in their previous occupation means they can just switch and other times they need a further qualification. Which they can usually do part time with a quicker degree, that sort of tacks onto their previous qualifications, they don’t have to repeat the whole University process. Often their new work place will pay for the training as well.

But unlike the US, a lot more of our careers don’t require a degree. Although they might require a certificate of some type. Also this is changing, and I am guessing it is in Europe too, more and more careers are starting to require degrees.

 

[GYM0M]

Just my two cents: Not in favor of the early commits, but in terms of ‘pushing’ their young bodies, most of the youngest ones are vying for Elite so it’s most likely not the early commit that’s putting the wear on their young bodies. I can think of a few instances in which an early commitment could actually remove some pressures.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

I find it fascinating how different the college/university processes are in the different countries. We are closer to the German model than the US or Australia model.

Studying is free here, and we are actually PAID for studying by the social insurance institution. I'm an university student and I'm paid a little less than 500 euros a month to cover the expenses of living, studying etc. In order to get paid I need to earn enough academic credits. So this means that I need to pass the courses that I'm taking. The only expenses we have are books and the membership fee of the student association, and that's something like 300 euros a year. I'm grateful of the opportunity to study for free and get a masters degree because my family is not that wealthy. My mother is a nurse and my father is a carpenter so they didn't go to an university, but my two brothers and I do.

I can say for sure that when I was under 14 I had no clue about universities. I couldn't make reasonable plans beyond next month or so.

 

[gymgal]

Lol, so true..

By the way, take a look at incoming Florida freshman vanasia bradley. Committed in 2014 and was injured for 2 years. Barely competed until 2016 and never regained her prior elite level and medically retired. Florida honored her verbal commit and she is joining the team as a student-coach on scholarship.

I think this is great! but I am sure it is an exception rather than a rule for most teams, unfortunately.

It would seem that it would make a lot more sense not to offer places until the gymnasts are at least in 12th Grade, .

In reality, this is what really happens. They are verbally committed earlier but it means nothing until they actually sign the letter of intent in 12th. But yes, I agree, it would be better to not even allow those early contacts and verbals until at least 11th.

...just wanted to say: so happy to live in a country in which everyone who performs well enough academically can enter college for free. this whole ncaa thing looks beyond crazy to an outsider. i teach year 6 and 7 and 8 all the time. these kids have no idea that there is such a thing as "their future". they can not have a "dream school" beyond their "dream you tube star" or "favourite football team" or "dream occupation" (most of the time vet or professional athlete, for sure). these are teenagers. it is beyond anyone to know what will be good for them in four or five years time.

Nothing is ever free. It may be free for you but someone is paying for it. And with that "free" education comes a lot of restrictions such as being pigeoned holed into a particular course in life (if you grades are not good enough you cannot get into certain pathways). The US has moved away from that thinking many years ago to the current thinking that everyone should have the opportunity to pursue what they want. While a lot of negative comments surround the US system, it is actually true. The system just needs to do a better job of helping students navigate the system, including keeping students in school and doing well in middle/secondary school. Just because a student doesn't have the grades does not mean they will not be good in a certain profession.

Not sure I agree that "US universities and colleges are the best in the world", according to the tables put out each year the best are pretty well spread out over the world. Considering I pay less than $5000 a year for my kid to attend McGill I think a lot of US schools are overblown. Leaving Uni with an undergrad degree and $160,000 USD of debt is ridiculous.....
I do think college attendance in the US is seen as a much more important right of passage than in many other countries. That of course puts a ton of pressure on kids and their parents.

your educational system is nearly fully subsidized. You may only be paying $5000 but someone else is paying the rest (just like need based grants in the US). And yes, building up debt in the amounts of $100k is ridiculous and completely unnecessary. People can and do finish college with no debt. There are books written about it. Websites providing all the tools needed. People just choose not to pursue them because it takes work and it is easier to just take out a loan.

My question about the European model is how frequently people who've gone through this system change careers. Part of the reason that college is so prevalent in the US is that Americans often do not stay with one field for their entire careers. Increasingly too in the US, we see major disparities in life outcomes between people who've gotten at least an associate's degree and those who have not. (I'm not saying this is a good thing, nor that it is the fault of people who have not been able to get a degree.)

I think what bog said is true - college has become a right of passage of sorts in the US. Around 20 years ago, higher ups decided that all students should go to college. One of the reasons was economics - it kept these teens and young adults out of the work force for a little while longer and secured the jobs of the older generation. But in doing so, nearly all the vocational/trade high school programs were pulled to free up resources for more college prep courses and extra assistance for those who struggled with these courses. In my opinion it was the wrong move. We now have more than half our college students not finishing college because it is too difficult - whether from finances, course work, work obligations, or family. These folks are no better off than if they had not gone to college in the first place. If they had the opportunity for trade schools (an trade schools weren't looked down upon so much in our nation) they would be in a much better position straight out of high school.

Studying is free here, and we are actually PAID for studying by the social insurance institution.

Graduate students often study for "free" in the US as well, with a stipend, in exchange for internships, teaching, and research.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

Graduate students often study for "free" in the US as well, with a stipend, in exchange for internships, teaching, and research.

Yes, I knew that. But it's a little bit different system here. We have 14 public universities and just one private one. And all 24 of our colleges (aka university of applied sciences, 3-4,5 year long programs) are public too. According to the statics, a little less than half of the students choose trade school after 9th grade, and the rest continue to the high school. Out of all the high school graduates more than 90 per cent eventually end up in college or university. And the great thing is that you can continue to these higher level educations even if you choose trade school when you are 15. You just have to pass the entrance examinations of the college you want to get into and if you study hard enough and show suitability and motivation to that given place, you can get in without high school diploma. You can also take high school courses online and attend evening school classes as an adult and then get a high school diploma later on. Actually 20 per cent of the freshmen in college are older than 28 years old. So it's very common to at first pursue one career and then try something else later on. It's great that it's possible here, because not many 15 year olds can actually make life long plans for their future.

It's great that I don't HAVE TO work in addition to my studies, but I can if I want to. You're just not allowed to earn more than 12 000 euros in a year if you want to receive the student allowance in its entirety. It's available for everyone older than 18 regardless of the finances of your family as long as your family doesn't pay for your living. The trade school and high school students are paid too if they live on their own.

And yes, nothing is actually free in this world, that's definitely true. But I like the idea that kids don't have to suffer from something they have no control over, and that's the finances of their family. In my opinion, every student should be equal and given the same opportunities to pursue what ever they want to and not worry about money. I'm a happy tax payer and so are 80 per cent of the Finnish people.

 

[kecks]

i love the last paragraph of the post above me. this is our education system in a nutshell. at least we strive for it to be like this. finns are definitly better at this than we currently are. i think my taxes are too low for my income. more money for the government means better streets, better schools, better health care, better libraries, better integration programs for refugees, better everything. solidarity rules. vast majority of people here (around 85% currently) thinks the same way and the results speak for themselves.