MAG Compulsory divisions bonus questions

[l.c.o]

The other big question is how all of this will work for team awards. I wonder if, for instance, they would let JD scores count if a JO team does not have enough guys? Better a 9.0 than a 0, right?

In our state, no. During a parent meeting at our state clinic, we were told the plan calls for a minimum of three kids to be needed to be eligible for team awards in one division, with the exception of L4. So, 3 kids to be eligible for L5 Div 1, and a second 3 kids to be eligible for L5 Div 2. But this may be tweaked in future years, depending on how this year goes. Sort of a bummer for small teams.

Edit: To add, I'm also thinking we were told that awards may vary some meet to meet (smaller meets may combine Div1&Div2 scores for team score), though it's possible I dreamt that. But what I said originally will be the case for state.

 

[l.c.o]

(Unless they've changed their minds since...?)

 

[Sasha]

We have always stressed that it is about having fun, working hard and doing your best, not placement or medals. And amazingly that must have sunk in, because last season he kept an excellent attitude throughout and never gave up. He made me very proud.

This is what we all hope for our sons! Great job!

As for struggling from 5-6 and repeating (not sure if he is repeating 5 or 6, but both very common), I hope neither of you will get discouraged, especially since it seems he started off at L4 with a few more placements (so that can be a hard adjustment). Boys develop so... strangely and unpredictably. They can look kinda horrible for a while (sometimes a long while) and have a lot of what seem like plateaus, or even backslides. First it's their short attention span and general wiggliness of the 8 and under crowd, then just as they are starting to focus (well, some of them, lol), early stages of puberty start, limbs grow, crankiness and tiredness affects focus, growth acceleration throws off their skills and they lose them, and they can just seem stuck. But even though my own guy is just hitting that stage, I have now seen older teammates successfully emerge as strong young men who look amazingly like.. real gymnasts! With real skills!

So keep the focus on fun and the reward of hard work of course, but also know that he's not doomed to never leave compulsories if he's hitting some walls right now. Maybe you know that already, but perhaps valuable to someone else reading.

 

[LLmom]

As a competitive coach for many years I feel that the emphasis of the routines should always slant toward the base routine (no bonuses). The bonus skills are there for those gymnasts that have that extra skill a little earlier than expected in their development in that level. The intent should never be "you must have bonus skills to compete at Level whatever." If that were the case then those skills really aren't bonus anymore. I tell my kids and parents all the time this:

"Bonus skills are like extra credit should be in school. It was never meant to be for kids to catch up. It is for those kids that already have a good grade but aren't quite ready to move up to the new grade. If they are ready to move-up then they should do just that. If extra credit were required to get a good grade, then it isn't really extra credit is it? Bonus skills in their gymnastics routine should only be performed when they already have the good score and aren't quite ready to move up to the next level."

My philosophy is also that the boys should only perform a bonus skill if it can be performed close to flawlessly.

I feel that overall the coaches out there have shifted USAG's intentions on bonus skills to inflate their scores and win trophies. The boys should compete at the level they are ready for, not in a lower one just to win awards.

I personally will be starting out all of my boys in division 2 and once they have demonstrated they can compete the base routine and achieve a "good" score then I will determine if they should move to division 1. Of course as always I have boys training the bonus skills, any good coach should, but just because you are training them doesn't mean you should compete them.

I wish more coaches expressed this same philosophy!

 

[gracyomalley]

curious how this has played out nationwide. Here a few teams have some D2 kids. More have all D1 and are doing what they've always done - do the bonuses you can do well - or do bonuses if the kiddo is safe and really wants to knowing that compulsory scores are less important that overall progression. At most meets we've been to the D2 kids are usually 2-4 per age group (level 6 at least). Our boys are all D1, and the coach is pushing the repeaters to do any bonuses they can safely do for sake of progression - but these are L 6 boys, who generally are past the point or prefering medals to progression....and they all generally medal in the top 3 in at least one event, team is doing well, placing top 3 all meets so far...so their confidence is ok even with occ botched routine because of trying bonuses...

JD is extremely small here - usually 2-4 kids even at meets with a few hundred boys. My son chose not to compete JD after a successful L8 year and it appears that all except a small number of the older boys in our region have either quit or done similarly (very small number of 15+ year olds/high school boys this year again even at larger meets...I've only seen 2 of the boys he competed L8 with - and both jumped to L10 - as both had been L8 repeaters unlike him, and are struggling but still in the sport at least. ) Has it taken off more in other regions? My younger one may be there next year - depending upon the testosterone fairy...I have noticed that L7 has gotten extremely small this year...as has L9.

 

[skschlag]

THere have been decent D2 divisions a the meets we have seen in L4-6. Not so much in 7. JD here is big. At our last meet, there were 15 L8, 9 L9, 25 L10 and 32 JD. our team has 12 JDs and D started there this season, moving to 9 abotu halfway through. I htink JD is going to be a great thing as people learn how to use it.

 

[samsmama]

We have also seen pretty decent numbers for D2 in L4-6 in our area -- I'd say it's roughly 2/3 D1 and 1/3 D2. At the last meet, there were around 10-12 D2 L6 boys in each age group. Definitely fewer D2s at L7. My DS's gym is ignoring D2 so far, but does have a few older guys doing JD. I agree that JD is going to be a great addition as it gets established. I'm not sold on D2 so far.

 

[profmom]

I kind of wonder if D2 is necessary above L5.

 

[rosiekat]

Even the biggest meets we've been to have only had about 4 D2 at L5. (I can't speak to the other levels.) The smaller meets have ignored it altogether (speaking for L5 and L4).

I know our gym went from having a pretty decent spread of guys across all levels to having something like 10 L10s, probably another 10 JD, a handful of 8s and 9s, and just 2 L7 and 1 L6. (I do think some of the L6 & L7 scarcity was also just an already occurring lower membership there - but we have a surge of upcoming 4s and 5s.)

Our 5s are all competing D1, and I don't think the 4s competed in any meets that differentiated. I do kind of think a couple of our 5s might be better served by being D2 where that's an option, but it's not my decision!

 

[Juniper311]

Personally, I'm quite happy D2 came around this year, and look forward to next year and, most likely, JD for my currently 11-year old 6D2.

 

[skschlag]

We have a lot of d2 gymnasts. It is nice to see them get to place. One little guy was at our old gym and moved to the sane gym we did. He is doing d2 and loving it. He doesn't have to compete against the superstars. And it will allow him to progress up to jd at some point. In the old system, I think he would have been a 5 forever.

 

[Sasha]

My 2 cents...

D2 has been a great addition for L5. Lots of teams using it here, and really helps the newer L5s feel like they can have some success and stay motivated. Most L5 boys are still fairly young and new to gymnastics, and getting crushed by 3rd year L5s with all bonuses in your first year (often at a lower hours gym) can falsely signal to a boy that he isn't 'good enough' just when he is getting started. L5 is a key foundational set of skills, and the first 'real' level (imo - as nearly any kid can manage L4, but L5 starts to require work), which is why many gyms repeat it so much. This results in a ton of variance between kids who are 'beginning' L5, and 'mastering' L5. D2 makes sense here if keeping boys in the sport is the goal.

D2 for L4 is fun and cute and lets the littles get out and compete earlier with less pressure from their gym to get them a ton of bonuses and be "competitive". I think that's a good thing. I don't see it as so beneficial as the L5 D2 separation, but I saw a ton of cute little guys new to gymnastics performing their little L4 D2 hearts out and proud parents snapping the cutest photos ever. So I'm a fan.

D2 for L6 and L7 is where the division starts to lose me. Just don't seem to be enough kids. Especially L7. If you are advanced enough to be doing L7 skills and have stuck around this long, you know the game and you know where you are. I'm not sure L7 D2 adds a whole lot. There are some gyms using D2 for L6 and L7 here. So far, the numbers are small. I do personally know D2 L6s who are happy the division exists and still beam getting a medal or 2 for their efforts when they otherwise wouldn't have. I know we over-medal here in the US as a trend, but medals are cheap and if more divisions are what keep kids motivated to stay in (because it helps them feel like they are 'in' the game, as opposed to 'out' of it for their age/level), then I can endure the longer award ceremonies to support that.

And JD rocks! Perfect for so many boys who don't 'fit the mold' of L8-10 (yet or ever), but don't want to be stuck to a formula in compulsories that isn't optimized for their strengths and progression plan. Also great team camaraderie for boys in this category (all basically teens) to have their own 'tribe' so to speak. LOTS of JDs here. Big fan of this new division for many reasons.

 

[Madden3]

Hi all, since I started this thread I thought I would give an update. My younger son has competed this season as a Level 6 D2. It was his second year competing as a 6. He has one more meet to go, State.

Despite his great concerns about competing D2, it is now very obvious this was a good choice for my son. His form seems way better and he is much more confident. I truly do know it is not about results and I believe he does too, but there is no doubt he is excited to be placing well this season. He proved he has "the right stuff" by how he handled a very rough season with no medals last year without complaint and never gave up and kept working hard. So it is nice to see him get some good results this season. On the other hand his results are not so amazing that it looks like he is in the wrong division, if you know what I mean. So it looks like this was the best choice in every sense.

I do not attend every meet and only have looked at meet results for a few of the meets my son has done, and really only at the results of my son and some of his teammates. His team were divided about 1/3 doing Div. 2 and 2/3 doing 1, and here is my opinion, based on those results I have seen.

I think that this year was a learning year and some coaches erred on the side of putting kids in D1 who would have fared far better in D2. As a result, I think that next year we are going to see more kids competing as D2s.

I think meet hosts need to learn how to balance the age groups better given the fact of 2 divisions. IMO every grouping in a level should be about the same amount of gymnasts to make the placements as reflective of reality as possible. I know at one large meet, there was only 1 kid in one of the D2 age divisions. That is silly. At other meets, D2 was combined to include all ages so the D2 kids competed against about the same number of kids they would have in their age division in D1. This makes more sense to me.

I disagree there is no reason to have two divisions above 5. At least were I live, there are a good number of 6s, even if it is less than at 4 and 5. If there are doing to be 2 divisions in compulsories, I think it makes sense to have them in every level.

The only reason I think it makes less sense for 7, is there are so few 7s overall. But maybe with these new age restrictions in optionals, we will start to see more older 7s, also with the two divisions, we might see more younger 7s.

 

[Madden3]

It would not let me edit my post, but it occurred to me that with 2 divisions in every compulsory level, that may help each level grow to the point that 2 divisions make more sense because the two divisions will act to retain more gymnasts overall in the sport. Anyone who has endured the crowds at a level 4 or 5 meet and then gone to an optional meet knows that a huge issue for MAG is gymnast retention.

 

[jenjean70]

My 2 cents...

D2 has been a great addition for L5. Lots of teams using it here, and really helps the newer L5s feel like they can have some success and stay motivated. Most L5 boys are still fairly young and new to gymnastics, and getting crushed by 3rd year L5s with all bonuses in your first year (often at a lower hours gym) can falsely signal to a boy that he isn't 'good enough' just when he is getting started. L5 is a key foundational set of skills, and the first 'real' level (imo - as nearly any kid can manage L4, but L5 starts to require work), which is why many gyms repeat it so much. This results in a ton of variance between kids who are 'beginning' L5, and 'mastering' L5. D2 makes sense here if keeping boys in the sport is the goal.

D2 for L4 is fun and cute and lets the littles get out and compete earlier with less pressure from their gym to get them a ton of bonuses and be "competitive". I think that's a good thing. I don't see it as so beneficial as the L5 D2 separation, but I saw a ton of cute little guys new to gymnastics performing their little L4 D2 hearts out and proud parents snapping the cutest photos ever. So I'm a fan.

D2 for L6 and L7 is where the division starts to lose me. Just don't seem to be enough kids. Especially L7. If you are advanced enough to be doing L7 skills and have stuck around this long, you know the game and you know where you are. I'm not sure L7 D2 adds a whole lot. There are some gyms using D2 for L6 and L7 here. So far, the numbers are small. I do personally know D2 L6s who are happy the division exists and still beam getting a medal or 2 for their efforts when they otherwise wouldn't have. I know we over-medal here in the US as a trend, but medals are cheap and if more divisions are what keep kids motivated to stay in (because it helps them feel like they are 'in' the game, as opposed to 'out' of it for their age/level), then I can endure the longer award ceremonies to support that.

And JD rocks! Perfect for so many boys who don't 'fit the mold' of L8-10 (yet or ever), but don't want to be stuck to a formula in compulsories that isn't optimized for their strengths and progression plan. Also great team camaraderie for boys in this category (all basically teens) to have their own 'tribe' so to speak. LOTS of JDs here. Big fan of this new division for many reasons.

At our level 7 meets I haven't seen more than 2 D2 level 7s in any of our meets in any age group. At one meet they just gave the D2 gymnast a medal for AA because he was the only one.

 

[Sasha]

At our level 7 meets I haven't seen more than 2 D2 level 7s in any of our meets in any age group. At one meet they just gave the D2 gymnast a medal for AA because he was the only one.

This is mostly what I'm seeing here as well for L7. Just not enough numbers. Borderline in this region whether there are really enough L6's either (other regions probably have more), but like I mentioned in my previous post, the L6 D2 division is definitely making some individual kids very happy, and I do think it will help with retention. Sounds like @Madden3 's son is one of those kids, so that is great to hear it has been a good choice for him. I agree the age groups could be combined better in some circumstances. At smaller meets, my son (L6 D1) has had to compete with all ages (just 1 big age group) to alleviate the tiny groups. I thought that was fine.

 

[Madden3]

I hope better placement at D2 is not the reason for the divisions. I hope it was done more to encourage coaches and gymnasts to focus on solid basics rather than pushing bonus skills too soon. What I have seen is quite a few boys in D1 scoring lower than many D2s. This should not be happening so much and I suspect as the division thing gets figured out by coaches, it won't.

 

[Sasha]

I hope better placement at D2 is not the reason for the divisions. I hope it was done more to encourage coaches and gymnasts to focus on solid basics rather than pushing bonus skills too soon. What I have seen is quite a few boys in D1 scoring lower than many D2s. This should not be happening so much and I suspect as the division thing gets figured out by coaches, it won't.

I think it's interrelated. Without the extra division, many coaches felt compelled to hold kids back until they were 'competitive' in a level, which meant they must have basics clean, but also have at least some bonuses pretty clean. The holding back and repeating levels (or the alternative, moving on prematurely and getting slaughtered) definitely contributes to a fair number of boys feeling like they are nowhere near competitive, and quit the sport. Young boys (under 9-10), especially, are hard to 'clean up' in the early years - most just don't have the body control yet, and they aren't rewarded for their efforts in meets (even though they are trying very hard).

So now, coaches are freer to let boys "advance" (to D2) and yet still be reasonably competitive (which translates to the placements you mentioned). Every kid wants to feel like he is advancing, and can at least hang in there and be somewhat competitive. So the extra division permits this for more boys.

 

[skschlag]

Exactly. The boy I spoke about earlier most likely would have been stuck in L5 forever. As it is he is a 10 yo 2nd year L5. And without D2, I think he would be an 11 yo 3rd year L5. now he can move up and be an 11 yo 1st year L6 D2, and not have to worry about being behind all the boys with all the bonuses. He can do his thing, do it well, make progress, win a few medals, and be a gymnast. I think in the old system, he would quit after another year or so.

 

[Jkacz]

Personally, having a D2 has hurt my son. This is only his second year competing - last year as a 9 year old L4, this year as a 10 year old L5. Last year he usually finished at about the top third to half AA in the big meets, winning events and AA at smaller meets. This year, there are 5 boys on his team competing L5. The coach at our lower hour, smaller gym has 2 of the 5 boys (including my son) competing D1 and probably around 20% of the boys at meets are competing D2.

DS's base routines are pretty clean but the problem is that we are in a pretty competitive region and age group. (Region 6, age 9 and 10). Because he was "only"competing 4 of the bonuses, he was not medaling AA in D1 at the larger meets, and even individual events were iffy. A 9.8 on mushroom competing 5 circles put him in the bottom half. And so now he is being forced to try to add additional bonuses to become competitive. For example, he has been doing mushroom in our living room daily to get his spindle and can now consistently do it but still has bent legs. His coach allowed him to add it last meet with the hope it will be cleaner by this weekend (states).

I think DS is working hard, progressing and is doing great. But he is disappointed because he is not getting as many awards this year. It doesn't help that his teammates who are competing D2 are medaling frequently. And, quite frankly, DS would be medaling too if he competed D2. I try explaining that it is an honor that his coach chose him to compete D1