MAG Compulsory divisions bonus questions

[Sasha]

Because he was "only"competing 4 of the bonuses, he was not medaling AA in D1 at the larger meets, and even individual events were iffy. A 9.8 on mushroom competing 5 circles put him in the bottom half. And so now he is being forced to try to add additional bonuses to become competitive.

Interesting perspective. Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but wasn't this how it used to be in former years? Everyone essentially in D1 (because there was no D2) and needing both clean routines and bonuses to be competitive in a talented field? At a larger, competitive meet last year, this would have still been the case, wouldn't it? (My son never won mushroom in L5 with high 9's either. He did not even make Regionals that year.) The only difference now is that your son's teammates in D2 are able to compete in a reduced-scale setting that better matches where they are skill-wise, whereas in years past, they might have been held back a level, or simply scored very low if moved up to L5.

Perhaps you are saying that now in D1 only the 'better' kids are left competing with your son? And therefore your son's relative placement is somewhat lower? Those better kids would still all be there, though, even under the old single-division system. And some might even have moved up to L6 D2 instead of repeating L5 with all bonuses now that that is an option.

In any case, I'm sorry to hear your son is not feeling as motivated this year . L5 is a tough level with so much variance in skills and TONS of athletes in the 9-10 age group. A number of boys place very well in L4, but L5 is a different beast, with lots of kids repeating it as it is such a foundational level. Makes the playing field much tougher. I know plenty of L4 podium kings who placed more mid-pack in L5 and struggled with motivation. I hope he can keep pushing and realize how great he is doing. L6 and L7 have far fewer athletes, comparatively. And the new L6 D2 option makes repeating L5 multiple times less necessary, which I think is great for a number of boys. My own son struggled in L5, with about 2/3 of the bonuses, and placed mid to lower pack. Rarely medaled (but they sure were sweet when he got them! ). Then the next year in L6, he placed high at States and top 10 at regionals. Keep pushing!

I hope the rest of your son's season is on the upswing, and he is excited to work toward new things after season's end.

 

[Madden3]

I think I know what Jkacz is saying. Are you saying, your son saw boys in D2 who scored far lower than he did win medals and place high when he did not? That must be hard, and confusing and seem unfair. Borderline cases where a child has some but not most or all bonuses was a grey area where coaches could have gone either way in choosing what division the child should compete in, and that is why I think this was a learning year- for coaches, parents and gymnasts. Learning how these changes are going to work in practice, I mean.

Or maybe you are thinking that some kids who really should have gone to Level 6 instead stayed at 5 and competed in D1 against your son? I think that is possible. But (unfortunately) it is nothing new that kids who more appropriately should move to a higher level do not so they can win.

One thing I had to keep reminding myself as I looked at scores, is that we do not know how my son would have scored if he did D1. He may have scored higher, because as a D2 he was not allowed to do bonuses. Every D1 had the potential to score far higher than my son potentially had, as they had higher potential start value. On the other hand, he may have scored lower than he did, as every kid in D1 who did bonuses risked loosing points on bonuses. That is why these new divisions are so different than, say, age divisions, which are largely what decide placement at meets but are otherwise meaningless. Divisions are also different than different levels. It's a new idea so naturally people were not sure how to best approach it.

As I believe I mentioned somewhere else, the State qualifying score was set very low for D2 (where we are) but more competitively - similar to what it was in previous years- for D1. Consequently most, in fact probably all D2s will go to State this year, and many D1s will not. That is a shame, and my son feels badly about his teammates who did D1 and did not qualify for State, which is the usual "goal" for these kids. My son actually made the D1 qualifying score at a couple meets, and that makes me wonder how many of these D1s would have at least been able to do that if they had just not done bonuses in D1! On the other hand, in our region no D2s are allowed to qualify for Regionals. So when it comes to Regionals, I think the boys who get there will be pretty much the same group who would have made it without the divisions.

I am glad I came here and got some clarity before the season started, because I was thisclose to insisting my son compete D1. Well, maybe not insisting but questioning, and I think if I had questioned our coach on this particular thing he would have said "whatever you want." Because he was fine to have a mixed team of some D1 and some D2.

What I found out here is that my son, who had one bonus per event (so I guess 5 bonuses) would most likely not have been competitive as a D1- nor would he have been competitive in the old system, without more bonuses.

Also I agree with Sasha, one thing I have seen over and over is that the jump from 4 to 5 and/or 5 to 6 are often difficult. Many kids find they do not do nearly as well the season after that jump. This is why many kids repeat Levels 5 or 6. One good thing about divisions is it will give your child more options for next year.

 

[gracyomalley]

As I thought, these changes are having very different effects in larger regions, and I "get it" that the larger regions are the regions that drive decisions. I'm happy to here that JD has been a postitive addition for other areas, and perhaps it will keep teens in the sport in those areas - we just never saw the issues you all deal with ....

I will be the bearer of bad news, however - the jump for basic L5 routines to basic L6 routines is NOT easy and I very much doubt that kids who were D2 level 5 for one year will find it "easy" to step right to L6, even D2....the scores differentials here have been minimal - D2 6s (very few) ranging 40s to low 50s, D1 kids ranging mostly low 50s to a very occ. 59+. and the hard skills at level 6 (back uprise on rings, moy on P bars, come to mind) are not bonuses....the bonuses, other than giants, are really mostly strength extensions of the basics at this level (or are very easy, such as the double BHS to back tuck and many of the pommel bonuses....however, if kids will feel a sense of acheivement with moving from D2 to D1 in the same level (rather than being disheartened by "repeating", then it will serve its purpose...they need to not focus on the medals, however....

 

[Jkacz]

I get what your saying Madden3. But this has happened where Ds's scores have been 3 points higher and he only competed 5 bonuses. Gracyomalley is right. I've been telling DS not to concentrate on medals but on his scores, and increasing his own score by adding new skills and keeping his base routines as clean as possible.

I do worry for DS's teammates next year. They are not working bonuses in practice to the same extent as DS and just have 1 or 2 (5 circles and L hold on rings). They now only have 5 months to conquer what I consider a large jump between L5 and L6, needing to learn skills DS has been working to learn and clean up most of the season. I'm not sure it's possible.

 

[Sasha]

They now only have 5 months to conquer what I consider a large jump between L5 and L6, needing to learn skills DS has been working to learn and clean up most of the season. I'm not sure it's possible.

Luckily, with the new Divisions, these boys will have some options since every athlete has a pace that is best for him... Possibly move up to L5 D1, or if they are close to the basic L6 routines, enter L6 D2 with a MUCH less competitive playing field than the old single division L6. For an even slower-paced athlete, repeating L5 D2 is also an option where at least he can still have another year of competitive success if he needs more time to mature, focus, etc.

Under the old system, slower-moving boys would have either been held back in L4 this year or gotten slaughtered in the harsh reality of old L5 competing against all the top kids. Even if they stayed in the sport, they wouldn't be able to move to L6 with any hope of success until at least half the L6 bonuses were under their belt.

Options are good.

 

[rosiekat]

I hadn't really thought about the divisions in terms of next year. All our 5's compete as D1 right now, but there are a couple of kids who are really struggling with a few things. One of them is a second year L5, the other is a first year L5. The second year kid has a hard time working without direct supervision, while the first year kid worked for a solid hour on his kip yesterday, while other teammates worked with coach on different skills. I strongly suspect they won't want to hold either kid back from L6 (since it would be 3rd year for one of them, and the other one works so dang hard) - I wonder if L6D2 might be considered for them. I do think they'll move everyone to L6, though - although I can't swear they'll move DS - he has the physical abilities but is still learning how to work independently, which is critical for L6 at our gym. Not that I guess that's anything y'all can answer, I'm mostly just thinking "out loud."

 

[Madden3]

But this has happened where Ds's scores have been 3 points higher and he only competed 5 bonuses

Higher than what? Just not sure what you are saying. If you are saying your gymnast does solid, clean routines including his bonuses and scores well, then that is great- No matter how he placed this season. Placement is arbitrary and depends on factors that are utterly outside a gymnast's control. So why worry about it? I mean I know that is hard for a little boy to understand. It is even hard for a big boy (my DH) to understand. But it is really true and once I figured that out I was a much happier gym mom.

What I eventually came to like about D2 was not the chance to place higher but that my son could concentrate more on his form for a few months. And at his age and stage of development, that was a good thing. At age 9 he experienced an enormous growth spurt that really changed things for him as a gymnast, and not in a good way. That is one big reason last season he was a bit of a mess. He looks so much better this year. That would have happened anyway, but the concentration on form rather than more bonuses I think helped.

What next year will bring as far as what level/division, I have no idea and it is out of my hands anyway, so I am not worrying about it. Summer is usually a time of more rapid improvement for my sons so we will see. Also our compulsory season will not start until late Nov/Dec so it will be 8 months, not 5.

I am really not trying to be a cheerleader for Divisions! There were lots of big changes this year and it will probably take years to figure out if they will result in net positives or negatives. And no matter what, different kids/gyms/areas are going to have different results from the changes. Also it will probably vary year to year even for individuals how divisions work for them.

I had to learn to make my peace with the changes. Despite D2 turning out to be fine for my son, both of us still prefer the old, no divisions way. We also would have preferred no age date change that caused my son to "lose" a year.
But these changes have inspired me to learn much more about the sport than I ever knew before and helped me look at the sport differently than before.

So far the only effect JD has had on us is it encouraged a friend of my boys who had struggled with an injury that kept him out of gym for a long time to stay on the team this year, so that was a big positive.

 

[Jkacz]

When competing 5 bonuses, the maximum starting value increase is 2.5 points. If a D1 gymnast's final score competing 5 bonuses is 3 points higher than a D2 gymnast's score, it can be inferred that the D1 gymnast would have done better than the D2 gymnast had he competed D2. For the D1 gymnast, it is hard to see that D2 gymnast medal while he doesn't. At that age it translates into - I'm not doing well.

What will be harder for me today is to explain to my D1 gymnast why his D2 teammates will ALL be going to Regionals regardless of performance at states while there is a chance he may not. Regional allotments for our state came out last night. ALL the state's L5 D2 gymnasts are going to Regionals while only the top 5 of 16 L5 9 and 10 year olds and top 1 of 5 L5 11 and olders will. That will be tough for him to understand. Quite frankly, I'll most likely fall back to "life's not fair" with maybe reminding him of the serenity prayer thrown in - serenity to accept that I can not change, courage to change that I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

At our gym, the coach decides what level the boys will be practicing and competing at for the following season by the end of August. Division can change but level is final. As the L5 D2 boys will be still working their L5 routines until April, they have until August to learn enough new skills at a clean enough level to move up to L6. The coach doesn't share his exact criteria, but it appears to be about 75 to 80% of required skills.

 

[skschlag]

Unfortunately, you are going to see this always. Whether it be in divisions or age groups. My ds would score higher than his teammates in older age groups, and not place at all because he was in a larger, more competitive age group. This has been something he has learned to accept since he was 7. Even last year he had to deal with that. at L9, the boys in the older age group on his team would place when he wouldn't even though his score was higher almost in every event and AA.

We explained it as the age groups, and how it worked, and how he was in a harder group and that this was good. This is one of those life skills that gymnastics does teach, and it is an important one if he is going to stick with it. The divisions actually make it slightly more fair over all. ut it is all about how it is handled with the kiddo.

Good luck to your son. Sounds like your region has some very strange rules regarding regionals. Ours was a cut off score for D2 that was lower than the cut off score for D1 but is comparable with the skills. So I expect most boys to make it.

 

[Sasha]

Regional allotments for our state came out last night. ALL the state's L5 D2 gymnasts are going to Regionals while only the top 5 of 16 L5 9 and 10 year olds and top 1 of 5 L5 11 and olders will.

Huh. Very strange rules indeed. That seems very illogical and imbalanced. Do you know how many L5 D2's are in your state?

 

[Jkacz]

I'm not sure for 7&8 year olds but do know for 9 and up there are 21 D1's and 7 D2's in my state. With Region 6 so large (including Massachusetts which is huge), I suspect the imbalance has to do with session capacity and the imbalance between the number of boys competing D1 vs D2.

Level 5 will be 2 sessions for Regionals (D1 and D2). So roughly the same number of boys will make regionals from both divisions (6 D1 and 7 D2 from our state 9 and up) but there are 3 times as many boys competing D1 as D2 in our state.

Last year there were also 2 sessions, but they divided it by age group (9 and 10 year olds in 1 session and 8 and under and 11 plus in the other). The result was that roughly top 50 percent went to regionals.

It makes sense and I understand it. I just don't like it.

 

[Madden3]

serenity to accept that I can not change, courage to change that I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

My son has the serenity prayer engraved on a necklace he wears.

 

[2G1B]

All L6 D2s in our state are making it too. I don't know about the lower levels. MOST D1 L6s will be making regionals. All but 3 of the boys. I was talking to the head coach of the gym hosting state. They aren't going to make a big deal of the L6s making it. He hasn't decided how they will let people know; but it isn't going to be the normal calling them up and making a big deal out of it. R8 split up compulsory and optional regionals this year and so the numbers to qualify for each level are higher than norma. Just seems crazy to go to 93% and not just go on up to 100%.

 

[sce]

My region decided not to take any division 2 compulsories. They did add JD to the schedule though. I definitely feel bad fir its in places where D2 boys have an easier chance to make it than D1 boys.

 

[jenjean70]

I was looking at our numbers for state- D2, level 7s....there are only 5 D2 12+ and 3, 10-11 year old D2 level 7s in the state of Texas!

 

[profmom]

Yeah, I increasingly think L7 is small enough for now that D2 isn't really necessary. Maybe in a few years if more guys are hanging out at L7 and skipping 8?

 

[samsmama]

I just looked up the numbers for VA states -- for L7, there are 27 D1, 13 D2. That's actually more than I would have thought. At L6, it's roughly 45 D1, 25 D2. L5 is an even split.

 

[profmom]

We don't have state numbers posted, but I'd be very surprised if there were more than five L7 D2s and surprised if it were four.