WAG Discussion of abuse in USAG - Nassar

[azara]

@tucktwisttumble (I forgot to quote you, sorry):

Be aware that @dunno has a vested interest in making USAG look good, and has taken a defensive line as the scandal has unfolded. I must admit that I've been disappointed with his approach. The "false" comment was misleading. What you were reading is incorrect, but is certainly based in fact, which I have outlined below.

It is true that there is a lawsuit against Bela and Marta for turning a blind eye. It was filed by one of the original Jane Does, who later revealed herself to be Mattie Larson. The Indystar wrote "The suit claims USA Gymnastics and the Karolyis...concealed sexual and physical abuses at their elite training facility in Texas to protect their reputations and businesses." (https://www.indystar.com/story/news...claims-usa-gymnastics-ignored-abuse/92823764/
and here is a link to the actual lawsuit: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3189553-Jane-LM-Doe-Complaint-FILED-10-27-16.html)

It is widely reported that Geddert walked in on a "treatment", to which he commented "your back must really hurt" to the gymnast. The assumption is he did not recognise the abuse for what it was.

In both cases, we do not know whether Geddert or the Karolyis knew about the abuse. In Geddert's case, it's probably safe to say he was just grossly negligent and inappropriate; hard to say in the case of the Karolyis, but we should adhere to innocent until proven guilty in the court of public opinion for now.

We cannot prove either way what is false or true.

 

[GymFan96]

@tucktwisttumble (I forgot to quote you, sorry):

Be aware that @dunno has a vested interest in making USAG look good, and has taken a defensive line as the scandal has unfolded. I must admit that I've been disappointed with his approach. The "false" comment was misleading. What you were reading is incorrect, but is certainly based in fact, which I have outlined below.

It is true that there is a lawsuit against Bela and Marta for turning a blind eye. It was filed by one of the original Jane Does, who later revealed herself to be Mattie Larson. The Indystar wrote "The suit claims USA Gymnastics and the Karolyis...concealed sexual and physical abuses at their elite training facility in Texas to protect their reputations and businesses." (https://www.indystar.com/story/news...claims-usa-gymnastics-ignored-abuse/92823764/
and here is a link to the actual lawsuit: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3189553-Jane-LM-Doe-Complaint-FILED-10-27-16.html)

.

The real people at fault here are the people in charge at MSU. Nassar was reported several times starting in 2000 and they did nothing.

 

[txgymfan]

The real people at fault here are the people in charge at MSU. Nassar was reported several times starting in 2000 and they did nothing.

There is a lot of blame and guilt to go around.
There are plenty of real people at fault.

Some feel guilty when it's not their fault, others feel nothing when I and others feel like they should have known, or done more. I feel guilty for not stopping my abusers more quickly and relieved my own abuse wasn't worse.

 

[gymdog]

It is widely reported that Geddert walked in on a "treatment", to which he commented "your back must really hurt" to the gymnast. The assumption is he did not recognise the abuse for what it was.

This was testified in open court.

 

[azara]

This was testified in open court.

Thank you, I didn't know that.

 

[tucktwisttumble]

@tucktwisttumble (I forgot to quote you, sorry):

Be aware that @dunno has a vested interest in making USAG look good, and has taken a defensive line as the scandal has unfolded. I must admit that I've been disappointed with his approach. The "false" comment was misleading. What you were reading is incorrect, but is certainly based in fact, which I have outlined below.

It is true that there is a lawsuit against Bela and Marta for turning a blind eye. It was filed by one of the original Jane Does, who later revealed herself to be Mattie Larson. The Indystar wrote "The suit claims USA Gymnastics and the Karolyis...concealed sexual and physical abuses at their elite training facility in Texas to protect their reputations and businesses." (https://www.indystar.com/story/news...claims-usa-gymnastics-ignored-abuse/92823764/
and here is a link to the actual lawsuit: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3189553-Jane-LM-Doe-Complaint-FILED-10-27-16.html)

It is widely reported that Geddert walked in on a "treatment", to which he commented "your back must really hurt" to the gymnast. The assumption is he did not recognise the abuse for what it was.

In both cases, we do not know whether Geddert or the Karolyis knew about the abuse. In Geddert's case, it's probably safe to say he was just grossly negligent and inappropriate; hard to say in the case of the Karolyis, but we should adhere to innocent until proven guilty in the court of public opinion for now.

We cannot prove either way what is false or true.

Very informative - thank you so much @azara

 

[Deleted member D3987]

This was testified in open court.

really! i was there and didn't hear this at all! Geddert knew nothing AND Marta and Bela knew NOTHING!
Hey Azara, you don't know what you're talking about.

29 months and NO smoking gun.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Rarely in child abuse or sexual abuse cases is there a smoking gun to be found after the fact. Utmost care should have been taken. Utmost care by all the adults at this facility should have been taken to keep all the children in their care safe. There is a problem with the culture when so many athletes didn't feel safe to report this. It's not complicated. I'm not talking about legal liability here, jus common sense. If they knew NOTHING that is a big problem too. Again, not talking about lawsuits but rather knowing that something was very wrong and broken in the system.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Just my opinion, but those focused on defending adults with power in the system that let this happen are probably trying to protect good people who had good intentions. But those same defenders and those under whose noses this happened don't seem to be the best people to have the perspective and incentives to fix things. As the old saying goes, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[gymdog]

really! i was there and didn't hear this at all! Geddert knew nothing AND Marta and Bela knew NOTHING!
Hey Azara, you don't know what you're talking about.

29 months and NO smoking gun.

Then it's possible a generally reputable media outlet falsified a transcript of one victim's testimony, but that seems unlikely. It appears this was part of a victim's testimony during the preliminary hearing.

 

[BachFlyer]

Then it's possible a generally reputable media outlet falsified a transcript of one victim's testimony, but that seems unlikely. It appears this was part of a victim's testimony during the preliminary hearing.

I’m 1000% sure that nothing was falsified.

 

[azara]

really! i was there and didn't hear this at all! Geddert knew nothing AND Marta and Bela knew NOTHING!
Hey Azara, you don't know what you're talking about.

29 months and NO smoking gun.

I did not say that the Karolyis, nor Geddert, knew about the abuse.

I said that that has been argued in the lawsuits (in the case of the Karolyis).
I then posted links to support all of my comments, including a link to the actual lawsuit in which those claims are made. I was providing information to a user who had heard that they knew about it, to give them the correct details about the situation. After @gymdog's comment, I looked up the testament, and it was absolutely testified that Geddert made those comments. I do, to a reasonable extent, know what I am talking about.

As others have pointed out, there are really only two possibilities:
1. The Karolyis and/or Geddert knew, and did nothing - personally, I find this highly unlikely, but like I said, until it has been investigated in court, we can't know what is true or false for certain.
2. The Karolyis and/or Geddert did not know, and at least Geddert did not recognise abuse when he saw it. Hundreds of gymnasts were afraid to come forward with their stories of abuse. Not just in this matter, but in non-CSA issues as well; Katelyn Ohashi's recent blog posts come to mind.

Just my opinion, but those focused on defending adults with power in the system that let this happen are probably trying to protect good people who had good intentions. But those same defenders and those under whose noses this happened don't seem to be the best people to have the perspective and incentives to fix things. As the old saying goes, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

You said this one hundred times better than I could.

 

[suds]

29 months and NO smoking gun.

Multiple girls were raped at the central USAG training facility over many years.
https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape
Res ipsa loquitur.

I do appreciate your input. Open, productive, respectful discussion between people of differing opinion is important for progress.

Interestingly, the more you dig your heels in with defensiveness of USAG, the more your comments epitomize the mindset that enabled a culture in which abuse occurred.
Denial and resistance to change are the biggest obstacles to moving our gymnastics community in a positive direction.

I am encouraged by Kerry Perry’s statement that includes a philosophy of empowerment, and an action plan that includes listening. I hope she is successful in her endeavors.
Link Removed=

The mindset of: denial / it wasn’t us / it wasn’t me, is antithetical to progress.
We prevent history from repeating itself via percipience.

Any USAG administrator who does not acknowledge, with both words and (more importantly) with actions, that the USAG system and culture compromised the safety and well-being of athletes… should not keep their job.

From the foreword to Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning:
“The greatest task for any person is to find meaning in his or her life. Frankl saw three possible sources for meaning: in work (doing something significant), in love (caring for another person), and in courage during difficult times.”

 

[John]

Well struck @suds

 

[txgymfan]

It all goes back to the environment that allowed this monster to thrive. USAG supported an environment that disempowered athletes, restricted their food choices, kept them physically isolated from the public and at times from their parents, retaliated against those who spoke out and allowed him to be alone in their hotel rooms and sleeping areas. The Karoli's will never get a pass from me and neither will USAG.

I'm sure they didn't know exactly what he was doing but they did give him a higher level of trust than they did athletes, coaches and parents. They gave him all the tools he needed to abuse young women and he did.

 

[sevenatenine2]

really! i was there and didn't hear this at all! Geddert knew nothing AND Marta and Bela knew NOTHING!
Hey Azara, you don't know what you're talking about.

29 months and NO smoking gun.

This may be---but do you honestly not agree that the rules and cultures implemented by Marta and USAG contributed to the abuse? Do you really find them faultless? Even go back to the claims of Moceanu---these children were obviously seen as pawns to medals and nothing more.

 

[BachFlyer]

This may be---but do you honestly not agree that the rules and cultures implemented by Marta and USAG contributed to the abuse? Do you really find them faultless? Even go back to the claims of Moceanu---these children were obviously seen as pawns to medals and nothing more.

Dunno has repeatedly implied that he has found no wrongdoing on the part of USAG. He seems invested in protecting their reputation. The question is, why? In the face of the sheer vastness and longevity of the abuse, my question is why not consider what really went wrong? What do you personally have to protect and defend? I suggest that his position of anonymity and supposed stature on this board allows him to take such a position without experiencing any of the repercussions from parents and the general community that would inevitably result from making such absolute claims without said anonymity. The community is paying attention, for the first time in all the years we have been a part of this sport. It seems more Parents are thinking differently about what they will accept from their kids’ gyms in exchange for success. Coaches, especially in R5, seem to be considering and implementing changes as it has been pretty hard to avoid the fallout of Nassar around here. As a parent, if I don’t see my dd’s gym acknowledging and addressing culture, then we have a problem. If I knew the staff was on here blowing smoke and propping up a broken system, we’d be moving on immediately.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

so much i could say. no matter what i say i look like the bad guy. as i stated from day one...MSU could have told someone they had a problem with the abuser. they knew as far back as 2000 that there was a problem. they KNEW he was working with underage gymnasts at USAG. never crossed their minds (?) that the very accusation made by college girls might be occurring over on the USAG side when they KNEW there was this relationship between MSU and USAG?

and how do i respond when someone posts "Multiple girls were raped at the central USAG training facility over many years". just how do you respond when that is false...and if i do i'm accused of defending the indefensible. one would be too many in my book. but "several"? absolutely false.

again, NOBODY KNEW what the POS was doing. did our culture contribute by providing him access? probably. but as ALL have said that are involved in this entire mess, including the victims, who would have known you couldn't trust a Doctor who's been around ALL of us for "several" years. and then abuse them under the guise of a medical procedure.

it's a mess.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Dunno has repeatedly implied that he has found no wrongdoing on the part of USAG. He seems invested in protecting their reputation. The question is, why? In the face of the sheer vastness and longevity of the abuse, my question is why not consider what really went wrong? What do you personally have to protect and defend? I suggest that his position of anonymity and supposed stature on this board allows him to take such a position without experiencing any of the repercussions from parents and the general community that would inevitably result from making such absolute claims without said anonymity. The community is paying attention, for the first time in all the years we have been a part of this sport. It seems more Parents are thinking differently about what they will accept from their kids’ gyms in exchange for success. Coaches, especially in R5, seem to be considering and implementing changes as it has been pretty hard to avoid the fallout of Nassar around here. As a parent, if I don’t see my dd’s gym acknowledging and addressing culture, then we have a problem. If I knew the staff was on here blowing smoke and propping up a broken system, we’d be moving on immediately.

the first sentence is correct. the rest is your speculation and narrative. at the end of the day, there will never be a crystal ball to predict all the illness in the world that will affect peoples lives in some way, shape or form. the overwhelming majority of the people involved in gymnastics are good people. and so are those that work at USAG. this won't change because the majority have always been doing the right thing.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

and looking back...the POS knew all along what he was going to do. as far back as when he was in high school. the making of a serial abuser. if only we knew.