WAG Discussion of abuse in USAG - Nassar

[amiandjim]

This happened to my child more than once. Threats to send girls to work out with the baby teams if she didn't pull a difficult skill or complained of pain were common. I don't know that I think that qualifies as "abuse," but it definitely is not a growth centered environment, and it is VERY COMMON at high level elite gyms.

I’m sorry but that is abuse. It’s verbal and emotional abuse!! Period.

 

[TakeTwo]

Ahh. Haha.
I’m not familiar with gyms in MI but I am familiar with the geography since I am from Michigan and lived in Lansing- I cannot imagine that there is no other gym within some kind of reasonable driving distance. What a bunch of stupid excuses for sending your child into a place you know breeds abuse.

When you're at that kind of a gym, in that kind of a world, you are blind to everything that isn't an elite, world class gym. You've been conditioned to believe that there is this kind of gymnastics (the sport,) and then there are people who "play" at gymnastics. Moving to a non-world class, elite gym feels the same as admitting defeat and quitting. It's the same power that keeps abused women in an abusive relationship -- this is what you know, and the unknown is infinitely more frightening.

I don't agree, but I totally understand his final question. How do you not pull your child out, but at the same time, how do you possibly do it? How do you look at a 9 year old (who does NOT understand the reality of the situation) and make that decision? You are either taking them to a smaller, less competitive gym and saying "gymnastics isn't really serious for you, it's just for fun" (despite her dreams and passions -- which have been built by the gym you are trying to escape) or you are saying "Everything you've been told about how there are very few places in the country that can prepare you like this place is a lie, and this little gym can do everything that one could do" -- something you don't really believe yourself either.

I am not in any way trying to justify anything - just hoping to point out that regardless of how clear and easy it seems on the outside, the decisions we make about our children are never "easy" when we are the ones making them.

 

[amiandjim]

Ok but as a parent, it’s my job to realize those 8-9 year-old dreams have been built into them by either the gym, their coaches, TV, or myself! It’s my job to realize my child does not in any way have the capacity to understand the sacrifices required of her to reach that goal. Nor does she have the ability to recognize abuse for what it is...all she can do is internalize it as “I’m not good enough, I have to be perfect all the time.” So, again, it’s MY job as her parent to say “hey, this gym isn’t in any way healthy. I need to move her for her well being.” Period.

 

[TakeTwo]

Ok but as a parent, it’s my job to realize those 8-9 year-old dreams have been built into them by either the gym, their coaches, TV, or myself! It’s my job to realize my child does not in any way have the capacity to understand the sacrifices required of her to reach that goal. Nor does she have the ability to recognize abuse for what it is...all she can do is internalize it as “I’m not good enough, I have to be perfect all the time.” So, again, it’s MY job as her parent to say “hey, this gym isn’t in any way healthy. I need to move her for her well being.” Period.

Oh I understand, and I agree. I just also know the level of subtle brainwashing that goes on in some of these gyms and I know that just "leaving" is far more difficult than it sounds -- not to say it's not also necessary. If I had seen this before my daughter's gymnastics career I would have said "Pull her out. Clear answer." But after having experienced it, I understand the difficulty of the decision from the parent's point of view. (Again, not saying it's not the clear right answer.)

This aspect of gym environment is one of those things that I am afraid is going to get swept under the rug in the spotlight of Nasser's abuse. There is one Nasser, just like there is one AA gold medalist. He's horrific, but his crimes are obvious and overwhelming and impossible to deny --so they are easy to get behind changing. "We can't let THAT happen again." But for every Nasser there are many others who are damaging and destroying our children in far less egregious ways -- one of those ways is by creating a system that indoctrinates kids and parents to the belief that "if you're not HERE, you're nothing." HERE is where kids get the NCAA scholarships. HERE is where kids go to the ranch. HERE is where kids go to the Olympics. Only HERE knows how to get you to those places, and it's a closely guarded secret.

I frequently watched kids travel from other states to stand in our gym lobby and take a picture, parents post pictures of their kid in front of the building to show they'd been there. That kind of worship makes it impossible for the parents and kids inside to even consider the possibility of leaving -- where would they go? You either quit, or you stick it out. And you come to believe that what happens here must be the norm, because why would people worship your gym if it was bad for them? Most importantly? The gym knows it, and counts on it, and cultivates that "Only HERE knows how to get you there" mentality -- in every action and decision of the coaches inside. They have no REASON to consider changes to their behavior. THAT is an unhealthy world that needs to be fixed by USAG moving forward, or we'll be right back here again in 10 years.

/soapbox.

 

[Taxidriver]

When you're at that kind of a gym, in that kind of a world, you are blind to everything that isn't an elite, world class gym. You've been conditioned to believe that there is this kind of gymnastics (the sport,) and then there are people who "play" at gymnastics. Moving to a non-world class, elite gym feels the same as admitting defeat and quitting. It's the same power that keeps abused women in an abusive relationship -- this is what you know, and the unknown is infinitely more frightening.

I don't agree, but I totally understand his final question. How do you not pull your child out, but at the same time, how do you possibly do it? How do you look at a 9 year old (who does NOT understand the reality of the situation) and make that decision? You are either taking them to a smaller, less competitive gym and saying "gymnastics isn't really serious for you, it's just for fun" (despite her dreams and passions -- which have been built by the gym you are trying to escape) or you are saying "Everything you've been told about how there are very few places in the country that can prepare you like this place is a lie, and this little gym can do everything that one could do" -- something you don't really believe yourself either.

I am not in any way trying to justify anything - just hoping to point out that regardless of how clear and easy it seems on the outside, the decisions we make about our children are never "easy" when we are the ones making them.

I get the point you’re making but and this is a big but when I was reading the article I was thinking that he was coming to a realisation of what environment his dd was it, that initially he was blinded by the name of Geddert being an Olympic coach but recent revelations had made him realise the true nature of the gym he even talks about the Nassar case and Wieber and says “it wasn’t until then that the scope of what had happened at the gym became clear.”
So I can understand him staying until that point (as sometimes it’s easier to see the truth being an outsider looking in) but I was really expecting him to finish the article by saying that he had been left with no choice but to leave but to say “For us, it’s Twistars or nothing.” I just can’t get my head around that.

 

[Flyaway]

I frequently watched kids travel from other states to stand in our gym lobby and take a picture, parents post pictures of their kid in front of the building to show they'd been there. That kind of worship makes it impossible for the parents and kids inside to even consider the possibility of leaving -- where would they go? You either quit, or you stick it out. And you come to believe that what happens here must be the norm, because why would people worship your gym if it was bad for them? Most importantly? The gym knows it, and counts on it, and cultivates that "Only HERE knows how to get you there" mentality -- in every action and decision of the coaches inside. They have no REASON to consider changes to their behavior. THAT is an unhealthy world that needs to be fixed by USAG moving forward, or we'll be right back here again in 10 years.

/soapbox.

This is important.

 

[FlippinPrincess]

I get the point you’re making but and this is a big but when I was reading the article I was thinking that he was coming to a realisation of what environment his dd was it, that initially he was blinded by the name of Geddert being an Olympic coach but recent revelations had made him realise the true nature of the gym he even talks about the Nassar case and Wieber and says “it wasn’t until then that the scope of what had happened at the gym became clear.”
So I can understand him staying until that point (as sometimes it’s easier to see the truth being an outsider looking in) but I was really expecting him to finish the article by saying that he had been left with no choice but to leave but to say “For us, it’s Twistars or nothing.” I just can’t get my head around that.

Hmmm, I never thought they would have chosen to leave. He stated in the beginning that they had been warned by friends about Geddert. He pushed girls to and beyond their limits and when they broke, there was another talented girl there to take her place. Sounds like he had a pretty good idea of what type of environment he was signing his little girl up for and simply didn’t care.

 

[strawberries]

Oh I understand, and I agree. I just also know the level of subtle brainwashing that goes on in some of these gyms and I know that just "leaving" is far more difficult than it sounds -- not to say it's not also necessary. If I had seen this before my daughter's gymnastics career I would have said "Pull her out. Clear answer." But after having experienced it, I understand the difficulty of the decision from the parent's point of view. (Again, not saying it's not the clear right answer.)

This aspect of gym environment is one of those things that I am afraid is going to get swept under the rug in the spotlight of Nasser's abuse. There is one Nasser, just like there is one AA gold medalist. He's horrific, but his crimes are obvious and overwhelming and impossible to deny --so they are easy to get behind changing. "We can't let THAT happen again." But for every Nasser there are many others who are damaging and destroying our children in far less egregious ways -- one of those ways is by creating a system that indoctrinates kids and parents to the belief that "if you're not HERE, you're nothing." HERE is where kids get the NCAA scholarships. HERE is where kids go to the ranch. HERE is where kids go to the Olympics. Only HERE knows how to get you to those places, and it's a closely guarded secret.

I frequently watched kids travel from other states to stand in our gym lobby and take a picture, parents post pictures of their kid in front of the building to show they'd been there. That kind of worship makes it impossible for the parents and kids inside to even consider the possibility of leaving -- where would they go? You either quit, or you stick it out. And you come to believe that what happens here must be the norm, because why would people worship your gym if it was bad for them? Most importantly? The gym knows it, and counts on it, and cultivates that "Only HERE knows how to get you there" mentality -- in every action and decision of the coaches inside. They have no REASON to consider changes to their behavior. THAT is an unhealthy world that needs to be fixed by USAG moving forward, or we'll be right back here again in 10 years.

/soapbox.

This description is right on, and again, Twistars is not the only one, and it sure ain’t the worst...Oh, and the brainwashing isn’t subtle.

 

[GymFan96]

This aspect of gym environment is one of those things that I am afraid is going to get swept under the rug in the spotlight of Nasser's abuse. There is one Nasser, just like there is one AA gold medalist. He's horrific, but his crimes are obvious and overwhelming and impossible to deny --so they are easy to get behind changing. "We can't let THAT happen again." But for every Nasser there are many others who are damaging and destroying our children in far less egregious ways -- one of those ways is by creating a system that indoctrinates kids and parents to the belief that "if you're not HERE, you're nothing." HERE is where kids get the NCAA scholarships. HERE is where kids go to the ranch. HERE is where kids go to the Olympics. Only HERE knows how to get you to those places, and it's a closely guarded secret.

After what we’ve heard about Twistars, I wouldn’t send my kid there no matter what! The Gedderts sound insane. Making a gymnast keep practicing who BROKE HER NECK!?!? I understand making a kid finish their routine if they’ve rolled an ankle or something, but a neck injury? No way! It doesn’t matter if it’s the Olympic games, no routine is worth risking paralysis or possibly your life!

Coaches do not have to be that way to create elites. I remember an interview where Chow said he threatened to pull Shawn Johnson out of Olympic beam finals if she didn’t stick a routine, and he was afraid she would hate him afterwards. So it’s obvious he didn’t normally use threats or a harsh approach.

I believe in letting a kid determine whether they are in too much pain to continue. Even though some kids lie and exaggerate, it’s better a safe than sorry. I believe most kids have a pretty good intuition for feeling when something is truly off vs just sore or bruised. Once I sat out a girl complaining of arm pain, but our head coach came over and told her to keep working. Turns out it was broken.

 

[Taxidriver]

Hmmm, I never thought they would have chosen to leave. He stated in the beginning that they had been warned by friends about Geddert. He pushed girls to and beyond their limits and when they broke, there was another talented girl there to take her place. Sounds like he had a pretty good idea of what type of environment he was signing his little girl up for and simply didn’t care.

Yeah I got that he knew that it was a harsh environment that his dd was going to (but not as abusive as the revelations) but that almost he was of the attitude of that was they way of an elite gym but to say “when you trust your child to what you think is the best coaching and medical care money can buy, the violation of that trust is as shocking as it is horrifying.” and to still stay?
Just to clarify I wouldn’t send my dd to an environment that regularly ‘breaks’ gymnasts.
Maybe I just don’t want to believe that someone would send their dd knowingly to an abusive gym.

 

[Plank]

It is good that the dad expresses how conflicted he is feeling. There is this principle, first do no harm. If your kid is enjoying doing gym, then suddenly shutting down that part of their world could well be harmful. If you pull them out of a club the size of Twistars, there may well be other clubs, but can they offer even the same number of hours? The same kind of equipment? Are their coaches trained to coach the skills your kid is doing?

In some ways, all the safeguarding processes based on reporting may be less effective than a system that ensures there is plenty of choice so that kids can move freely not only from one gym to another but also from gymnastics to other activities.

 

[bogwoppit]

This happened to my child more than once. Threats to send girls to work out with the baby teams if she didn't pull a difficult skill or complained of pain were common. I don't know that I think that qualifies as "abuse," but it definitely is not a growth centered environment, and it is VERY COMMON at high level elite gyms.

Definitely abuse.

 

[raenndrops]

If you pull them out of a club the size of Twistars, there may well be other clubs, but can they offer even the same number of hours? The same kind of equipment? Are their coaches trained to coach the skills your kid is doing?

The girl is competing L4. She doesnt need to be doing 24 hours at L4 and 8-9 years old. There are other gyms within an hour of Twistars that CAN coach L4 and even L5! I heard there is a gym that even has L9s... just no L10s yet.

 

[Plank]

The girl is competing L4. She doesnt need to be doing 24 hours at L4 and 8-9 years old. There are other gyms within an hour of Twistars that CAN coach L4 and even L5! I heard there is a gym that even has L9s... just no L10s yet.

My feeling is that a two hour round trip on top of training is too much for a 9yo. Of course this particular 9yo might well already be travelling a long distance, but it sounds like her training location is linked to her siblings' ice skating training anyway. But we are not talking about just one kid. Twistars has how many kids? Are there enough gyms with enough capacity to take them all, as of last week? The kids will have friendships, maybe very strong friendships, can they move together? And explaining to the kids what has gone on, whoo...

I'm not saying for a moment that it is okay to leave your kid in an abusive situation. More I'm talking about what we need to think about to create an actively safe situation. Is artistic gymnastics intrinsically an unhealthy sport? That's where I'm leaning tbh...

 

[profmom]

I think though that the story and the video he embeds reveal something important about gymnastics, which is that new parents generally only have their own gym as a point of reference. How many times have we had parents come on here and say, "Hey, I know nothing about gymnastics, but my child is on preteam and X horrible thing just happened. Is that the norm?" and we all go, "DAMN, girlfriend, take your kid and RUN!"

Kids who fall in love with gymnastics really fall for it hard, and some are willing to put up with staggering levels of disrespect and abuse to keep doing it and keep moving forward (and yes, this isn't unique to gymnastics). I think sometimes as a parent, it's too easy to get caught up in the amazing skills that your child is learning to do, things that if you yourself had no experience with the sport, could never imagine doing. And at the early levels, the system is set up to reinforce the good feelings and encourage continuation -- it's no accident that lower levels hand out a lot of medals at meets.

So you see this dad, sure, it all makes sense. He sees his daughter doing something really hard, getting better and better at it, moving forward, winning, and being part of a team that is crushing the competition. A team lead by someone who was an Olympic coach. Heck, if it gets bad later on and she feels like the tradeoff isn't worth it, she can always decide to quit, right? He can't see the sunk cost freight train on the tracks ahead. He can't see that right now there are practices going on in that gym that are putting his daughter at significant physical risk. He has no frame of reference to understand the difference between seeing a L9 or L10 working on Tkachevs and doing repeated faceplants on a mat and seeing his own daughter determinedly trying to do like the slightly bigger girls do on bars -- with no coach there to prevent her from breaking an arm or her neck or getting a concussion. Those of us who've been in this a while, even if we're just parents, look at that and our hair stands on end. How is he going to know, though, two years in, what's normal and what is "OMG, take your kid and RUN!"

I saw something good on FB this morning that I'll post in another thread.

 

[Taxidriver]

There is this principle, first do no harm. If your kid is enjoying doing gym, then suddenly shutting down that part of their world could well be harmful.

I personally can’t see how pulling her out of gym could be more harmful than leaving her in a gym where you know abuse has taken place. Maybe that’s just me. At the end of the day gymnastics is not the be all and end all of life. Sooner or later everyone of our children will have to leave this sport be that injury, age, time restraints, financial or whatever and yes I’m sure that day will be hard but life carries on after you leave gymnastics behind, abuse stays with you for a lifetime. I hope my dd will make that choice for herself when the time is right but if needs be for her well being I will make the decision for her.
I’ve even contemplated pulling my dd out of gymnastics full stop with all the revelations that have been going on as to me currently gymnastics feels a bit tainted and my dd is at a lovely gym where I have no concerns of abuse.

 

[LindyHopper]

This description is right on, and again, Twistars is not the only one, and it sure ain’t the worst...Oh, and the brainwashing isn’t subtle.

Telling gymnasts they should kill themselves, dropping gymnasts in a spotting belt from 8-10 feet in the air, throwing water bottles at gymnasts, forcing them to train with severe injuries, throwing them into or knocking them off of apparatus, stepping on their feet, hitting them with a mat--it gets worse then that? Dear God, how?

 

[LJL07]

When you're at that kind of a gym, in that kind of a world, you are blind to everything that isn't an elite, world class gym. You've been conditioned to believe that there is this kind of gymnastics (the sport,) and then there are people who "play" at gymnastics. Moving to a non-world class, elite gym feels the same as admitting defeat and quitting. It's the same power that keeps abused women in an abusive relationship -- this is what you know, and the unknown is infinitely more frightening.

I don't agree, but I totally understand his final question. How do you not pull your child out, but at the same time, how do you possibly do it? How do you look at a 9 year old (who does NOT understand the reality of the situation) and make that decision? You are either taking them to a smaller, less competitive gym and saying "gymnastics isn't really serious for you, it's just for fun" (despite her dreams and passions -- which have been built by the gym you are trying to escape) or you are saying "Everything you've been told about how there are very few places in the country that can prepare you like this place is a lie, and this little gym can do everything that one could do" -- something you don't really believe yourself either.

I am not in any way trying to justify anything - just hoping to point out that regardless of how clear and easy it seems on the outside, the decisions we make about our children are never "easy" when we are the ones making them.

Lots of issues at our gym. There is nowhere else to go. Exactly the stuff as described in your previous post about being demoted to the baby group if you don’t do this or that. Very mean and nasty stuff that would make all of you cringe. We have this gym or another that does xcel. That’s it. What the heck do you do? It’s a terrible position to be in. It’s not as easy as it sounds to force a 10 year old who loves the sport and identifies so strongly with it to quit. It might be best, but it is very, very hard.

 

[FlippinPrincess]

Lots of issues at our gym. There is nowhere else to go. Exactly the stuff as described in your previous post about being demoted to the baby group if you don’t do this or that. Very mean and nasty stuff that would make all of you cringe. We have this gym or another that does xcel. That’s it. What the heck do you do? It’s a terrible position to be in.

What do you do? Find another activity. Why is gymnastics so important? I get that it’s fun, but so are so many other things. This idea of abusive, nasty behavior being “okay” because it’s the only nearby option is just mind boggling. I just don’t understand this. Again, why is gymnastics more important than a child’s well being?

 

[MILgymFAM]

Telling gymnasts they should kill themselves, dropping gymnasts in a spotting belt from 8-10 feet in the air, throwing water bottles at gymnasts, forcing them to train with severe injuries, throwing them into or knocking them off of apparatus, stepping on their feet, hitting them with a mat--it gets worse then that? Dear God, how?

My DD was a L6 at a no-name, non-superstar gym. And she was told she was worthless, that no one else would ever waste their time with her, that she was the worst gymnast he’d ever seen in his three decades of gym, that she was a baby because she couldn’t handle him, that she should get out of his gym and run to mommy (every time she couldn’t do something). When the girls on the team bullied her and told her she didn’t belong and that she was too fat to spot, I went to him.. and he offered me diet advice so that she could lose weight. The fact that she was 5’6 and 105 lbs is absolutely besides the point. He added days to “help” her until she was there seven days a week. He would make her stand in front of the whole team and belittle her performance after every meet as an example of what not to do. He would use scratching and competing as a sort of game. Tell her she would compete an event and then have her scratch literally as she was ready to salute. He would tell her she was scratching and then make her compete without warming up. We never knew until she starting a routine if she would compete anything at all. If she couldn’t do a skill- she had a flyaway block after he fell on her when she did her first one- he wouldn’t let her off the apparatus for four hours straight. Other times he would kick her completely out of practice after one failure. She was threatened to be kicked off the team weekly, to be kicked back to compulsories daily. We switched gyms because he was the most awful man I’ve ever known.. and the next gym ended up shades of the same.. but with 2 hour pit walks thrown in as punishment, and more weekly threats.

For her two few years in northern California we were absolutely convinced that this over the top, insane behavior was normal. We kept leaving gyms, but then we were made to think we were the problem.. why can’t she just suck it up, it’s not their fault that she’s not good enough, it’s my fault as her mother because I didn’t believe in her enough to let her be trained properly...

When I forced her to quit artistic altogether it was the best decision I’ve ever made. Six gyms trialed or attended in three years in NorCal.. and of that six, two had severe safety issues (one my DD was asked to learn jump to high bar and flyaway without a pit or a spot at ALL- coach wasn’t even on the floor, the other the girls had no direct coaching and were free to practice whatever they wanted all the time), one was ok except they told her she’d never be good enough so they couldn’t waste anymore time on her (we are talking about Xcel on this one!), one just wasn’t for her, two were flat out abusive IMO, and one was great- but she went there after she quit team gym and only for a once a week private. The insanity of this sport is positively rampant in our experience.

When we moved and she wanted to try and go back to artistic, our number one consideration was finding a place that treats the girls like actual humans. We’ve found that, luckily, but a couple she visited here we knew right away would be more of the same. Angry or sad girls at all the practices, dismissive coaches, etc.. and one that took one single look at my DD (after a month planning a try out via email and phone) and said nevermind.. you can’t even step foot into a trial.