WAG Discussion of abuse in USAG - Nassar

[suds]

Oh, Suds, you mean like this? It didn't even have to be crowd sourced or privately funded.

Thank you for sharing the link.
A few thoughts:

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this “Independent” investigation was sponsored by Penn State. This has created downstream problems with credibility of the report, and public perception of forthrightness and honesty of Penn State.

With the USAG abuse scandal, the victims’ voices need an independent sponsor.
In all of the legal wrangling to date, with defense teams vying to win the finger-pointing-contest, it seems the victims’ suggestions for changes are being lost. Perhaps the victims' attorneys could eventually help synthesize their various suggestions, although this currently does not seem to be the top priority. It also doesn't seem right for the victims to pay for providing consolidated feedback (via paying their private attorneys).

So many of the statements by victims seem to include, “I felt…”, “It seemed,…”, “I thought…” which suggests a psychologist-led / facilitated effort might have merit.

As a parent, I want a Root Cause Analysis done.
These are sentinel events with devastating consequences.

Other investigations are still helpful (see Deborah Daniels’ recommendations).
However, centering on the victims’ experiences and point of view helps reveal “What could have prevented this?”
Valuable insight will come directly from those victims willing to share their perspective and specific suggestions for change.

 

[profmom]

We are mostly on the same page. My point is really that private litigation is a poor tool to accomplish this kind of deeper learning and healing. All private litigation can do is try to monetize damages and allocate blame. Some damages really are not effectively translated into dollars, though that is our best way of acknowledging harm in the disputing process. Personal injury attorneys' jobs are not to create structural solutions to societal problems. The job is to win cases and extract damage awards for their clients. Manly is not a public interest lawyer, even though in some regards he is behaving a bit like one. And I am not sure I'd want to try to crack this nut through public interest litigation either, for a lot of reasons with which I won't bore you all.

The Penn State crime, its investigation, and its aftermath teaches us how little we have really learned and how little the culture has changed. Sandusky, another upstanding and respected member of his community, was convicted in June 2012. An MSU graduate student filed a formal complaint against Nassar in 2014. And yet.

I share the anger at institutions that fail to listen, fail to protect, fail to act. But continuing to react to individual institutional failures solely by demonizing the institutions involved won't solve the problem. And really, isn't that what we want, even more than Steve Penny's head on a platter? I'm trying to think about what could be done more broadly; I keep coming back to cultural change and legislative change on the national level.

 

[raenndrops]

It was reported during Nassar's trial that Geddart walked in during a "treatment" at his gym and did nothing, treated it as a commonplace activity. That man gave Nasser free reign to treat girls at his facility and knew how he was "treating" them. I personally feel he needs to be investigated too, and I'm surprised that he has received so little attention through this all. It is good that MSU is being investigated, too. Sure, I believe some (most) people that might have seen a red flag or two were in denial and had good intentions but extremely poor judgement. But others bear much responsibility and should face consequences.

Not excusing anyone who knew he was, in fact, molesting these young women, however, it's possible they could see and still not know.
The only thing I can think is that Geddart thought the girl was really being treated. I doubt he looked too closely to notice if Nasser had gloves on or not. And as was mentioned somewhere on CB after the news broke... the treatment is a LEGIT medical treatment... not necessarily for teen girls, especially those who have never had a baby, but it is a real treatment.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Aly is swinging for the fences right now , http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/10/us/aly-raisman-usa-gymnastics-abuse/index.html

 

[duyetanh]

Aly is swinging for the fences right now , http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/10/us/aly-raisman-usa-gymnastics-abuse/index.html

Yes she is!

 

[txgymfan]

Twin City Twisters posted this awesome video in support of Maggie today. It made me cry!

 

[duyetanh]

Twin City Twisters posted this awesome video in support of Maggie today. It made me cry!

It made both myself and my husband choke up big time.

 

[GYM0M]

1) Abuse is happening every day in every gym in every country. It may not be the blatant sexual abuse that this monster Nasser has committed. But it's there in the psychological abuse that these kids (CHILDREN) are exposed to daily.

2) Remember everyone... we are the parents and our first duty is the protection of our children from ALL HARM.

3) Hug your daughters and sons, and more importantly, TALK to them.

Let me start off by saying that I in no way condone the actions of the abusers/silencers, but it’s no secret that I have not jumped on the #dismantle USAG bandwagon, and I doubt I ever will. Full disclosure, many people will disagree with what I am about to say. Some might even change their opinion of me and that’s ok. Please know that I have no intention of personally offending anyone and I feel, as I always have, that gymnastics is a sport that should be enjoyed by gymnasts of all ages and abilities. Also beware that I won’t get caught up in a virtual boxing match with anyone, but I am open to participating in any polite & mindful debate/discussion about the issues at hand. So here goes.....
1) At risk of sounding naive & cliche, not at my DD’s gym. If my DD is ‘abused’, physically, mentally, or emotionally, it is strictly at HER own hand. SHE is fully aware of her right to walk out at any time she deems fit. Will she? Nope. Why? Because she’s a fighter, strong willed, and determined. (Now I’m not even remotely implying that I feel anyone is weak.). I have asked myself why I allow her to endure this sport long before I was aware of any of this. However, there is a mental aspect of this sport that I feel coaches are just as responsible of developing as any other skill. Does every coach do it the right way? No, but I can think of several instances that I’ve read on here about how this skill or that skill has not been properly developed. Do we put out an all ban on ‘sit-lean-jump’ coaches? Nope. How do we correct this? We train them. We develop them. Anyone that’s had a child go through a mental block will agree that a course on the emotional development of children, especially young girls, would tremendously supplement USAG’s current safety course and who knows it could aid in decreasing other issues like eating disorders that are common in the sport. Will they all learn? Nope and that’s why I feel that any coach or program that belittles ANY of their gymnasts is not an appropriate environment for any child. But don’t think for a second that all coaches and programs are guilty of abusing their athletes bc this is just absolutely not true.
2) I completely agree that it is MY job as her mom to protect her from ALL harm. It’s actually this statement that convinced me to speak up, because if I’m being honest, right now, the only thing threatening her is an angry mob of people who might think they know the ‘real’ issues and who want to tear down an establishment and people that SHE admires and truly loves. What kind of parent would I be if I didn’t fight for HER voice? Shouldn’t she have a say in how to shape HER future? It may be hard to see things from my perspective, but I am curious, to you guys that are calling for total annihilation, how many of your children have actually been to The Ranch? How many of them have actually been coached or even engaged by the NTS? Not trying to be mean or rude, but do not assume things that you truly know nothing about. A couple more things about HARM. My DD’s level of gymnastics is not typical and as such requires a level of dedication and continuous education of her coaches that is also non-standard. I’m supposed to be ‘OK’ with the sub-par alternatives that would have to be implemented by dismantling the current structure as opposed to the optimal current coaching and education provided by the NTS and USAG? And for what? The hope that we as a SOCIETY not just gymnastics culture learn to STOP EXPLOITING OUR CHILDREN PERIOD in time for my grandchildren or great-grandchildren to reap the benefits? No. And for the record, no one finds the timing of some of the ‘heroes’ odd, or that some so-called ‘experts’ that are calling for the dismissal of all employees at the time of the incidents was in-fact on the payroll at the same time? I can’t help but feel that we as a gymnastics community are allowing personal gains and vendettas to continue to capitalize on the EXPLOITATION of our children. The best place for change to start to take place is inside our homes. WE, the parents, are responsible for our children. It’s our duty to be wolves, not sheep.
3.). Don’t just talk to your children about these types of things. LISTEN to them, their struggles, their opinions. ENGAGE them. Strategize solutions to their problems. SUPPORT their endeavors, their dreams, their goals. Give them the tools, teach them a better way.
I also want to say I admire the young women and their support systems that have come forward. It takes a lot of courage and strength, but again, if I’m being honest, if the mob is successful, my heroes won’t be those that endured and came forward after their dreams came true. My heroes will be the ones whose hopes and dreams were sacrificed for the ‘greater’ good.

 

[Fijiwater]

Amen @GYM0M and for the love of God people if your child or anyone else is being abused call the cops! Call them right NOW! Not tomorrow, not next week, or next year but now. Don' wait for your boss to tell you to, don't believe "It's being handled". I understand the power over some of these people but that's no excuse it' your responsibility, no matter who you are, to report abuse especially of a child, most certainly if it's your child!

 

[Fijiwater]

Not excusing anyone who knew he was, in fact, molesting these young women, however, it's possible they could see and still not know.
The only thing I can think is that Geddart thought the girl was really being treated. I doubt he looked too closely to notice if Nasser had gloves on or not. And as was mentioned somewhere on CB after the news broke... the treatment is a LEGIT medical treatment... not necessarily for teen girls, especially those who have never had a baby, but it is a real treatment.

I was shocked to find this out myself. I read an article by one of the professionals in this field. They were pissed because of media incorrect reporting on the subject, constantly calling it a "rare procedure". Even more pissed that Nassar abused it, because it does apparently help many people.

 

[Faith]

I have said that right from the start. Someone also needs to be investigating whatever body licences people to carry out this procedure, and implement protocols to restrict its use.

For example- a) i apply to get licenced. I am a gynae specialising in birth injuries. I am trained and authorised to use the procedure. If i leave that position i have to reapply for the licence in my new role.

B- i am a team doctor for USAG, treating underage girls for sports injuries. The answer should have been no, you are not licensed to carry out that procedure in that role.

As an aside- many parents and gymnasts, particularly at elite level, don’t realise they are being abused. Particularly with emotional abuse. They think the coach is “tough”, and it’s what they need to do to reach their goals. So they don’t question when the coach tells them they’re useless, they think they are useless and need to do better.

 

[Fijiwater]

I have said that right from the start. Someone also needs to be investigating whatever body licences people to carry out this procedure, and implement protocols to restrict its use.

For example- a) i apply to get licenced. I am a gynae specialising in birth injuries. I am trained and authorised to use the procedure. If i leave that position i have to reapply for the licence in my new role.

B- i am a team doctor for USAG, treating underage girls for sports injuries. The answer should have been no, you are not licensed to carry out that procedure in that role.

As an aside- many parents and gymnasts, particularly at elite level, don’t realise they are being abused. Particularly with emotional abuse. They think the coach is “tough”, and it’s what they need to do to reach their goals. So they don’t question when the coach tells them they’re useless, they think they are useless and need to do better.

I guess I live in Pleasantville. Calling a kid "useless" is horrible but again I am shocked at all the stuff women are going through in the work place and Hollywood etc. Like where did all the good guys go....

 

[GYM0M]

As an aside- many parents and gymnasts, particularly at elite level, don’t realise they are being abused. Particularly with emotional abuse. They think the coach is “tough”, and it’s what they need to do to reach their goals. So they don’t question when the coach tells them they’re useless, they think they are useless and need to do better.

Any adult referring to a child as useless is abuse regardless of discipline. ‘Tough’ coaches do not tell children they are useless, but abusive ones could & do. There’s a difference. And contrary to popular belief, most elite level parents are not ‘blinded’ by their child’s success. For the most part, they are just as level headed as the parents of any other level gymnast.

 

[Faith]

And contrary to popular belief, most elite level parents are not ‘blinded’ by their child’s success. For the most part, they are just as level headed as the parents of any other level gymnast.

So why do they let their kids continue being treated like that? The coach I am referring to actually has parents fighting to get their child into that group. If they are level headed as you say, then they are choosing to allow an adult to treat their child this way. I think I prefer to believe they do not see it.

The coach in question did not call the child “useless”. They actually used a word that would be starred out should I try to use it here, so I paraphrased.

I took my child away from that coach. But the others remain, and don’t question. Because they are winning. And again we are back to the issues of NGB- are they colluding in the abuse by selecting these children to national squad and giving them international assignments? Can they claim they didn’t know what was happening within a club, or do they have a responsibility to their athletes, even away from training camps.

 

[GYM0M]

I guess to some degree the law of supply and demand goes into play there along with the status quo. I’m glad you didn’t allow your child to continue in that environment. Gymnasts of all levels and ability are going to be more successful and thrive in a positive environment. That’s not to say that all coach feedback will be positive, even in a positive environment. I do think it is a responsibility of a governing body to keep the priorities straight and it sounds like maybe theirs aren’t in this situation, but I can’t help but feel that it’s the parents that are creating the opportunity. If it’s in the cards for your gymnast to be that title, it will happen no matter the ‘track’ record of the coach.

 

[Taxidriver]

Any adult referring to a child as useless is abuse regardless of discipline. ‘Tough’ coaches do not tell children they are useless, but abusive ones could & do. There’s a difference. And contrary to popular belief, most elite level parents are not ‘blinded’ by their child’s success. For the most part, they are just as level headed as the parents of any other level gymnast.

I think it’s not so much blinded by their success but makes me think of ‘boiling a frog alive’, Gymnastics is a tough sport both for kids and parents eg if my dd splits the beam she’s expected barring any serious injury to get back up and carry on however if that was pe at her school she would probably be told to sit out and rest for the rest of the session. Watching your dd fall at competition is hard but it happens.
My point being it’s a tough sport and it hardens you up and also skews your perception of normality, training for a sport at the age of 8 for 15hours a week might not be unusual in the Gymnastics world but I know in my dd school class she is the only child who trains that many hours for a sport the next being a couple of swimmers who are on 7hours/week.
My dd won’t make the very top level but some of those who train along side have the potential, her coaches are tough (not abusive) but I can see how you could be to be in an unhealthy environment and not notice especially if it’s been a gradual change from tough to abusive and you are surrounded by many other successful athletes and seemingly happy parents.

 

[sevenatenine2]

But don't you think that an organization that does things like appoint Marta Karolyi to be the leader of it, knowing full well the allegations of abuse that surrounded their program, contributed in a large part to the culture that allowed abuse to run wild? I'm not even talking about the claims in Romania, but even the stories found in Kerri Strug's book illustrate abuse---and she's one of his supporters. Dominque Moceanu took it even further, and I believe every word that she said. Gosh, even the story of making her do some outrageous number of bar sets at the 1995 worlds podium training because they were mad at her has to be easily verified by all the other coaches in attendance. USAG supported that culture by celebrating the Karolyi's and elevating Marta (and Bela, first) to NTC knowing the allegations of abuse. They did the same thing with Valeri. Vanessa Atler has spoken about her experiences as well as Katelyn Ohashi.

And I know you are teaching your daughter to be her own advocate. I do the same. But USAG also created a culture to which her other protectors (parents and personal coaches) were not ALLOWED to be around gymnasts at the times of abuse because of rules put into place by USAG. I often wondered where the personal coaches were. If I had an athlete that needed to be treated or seen by a doctor, I would go with them in lieu of their parents. I dug a little bit and found that the treatments happened in the dorms where the personal coaches weren't allowed. It is a bit much to think it's okay to place a 10 year old in a situation where she is up against an abuser with no one there that has her best interests at heart---and, I'm sorry, but USAG does not. They have proven that the kids are expendable to them. They might have her best interests, when it comes to gymnastics, in mind because that will ultimately benefit them---but as far as her as a person? Nothing I've read about the program gives me any hope about that, including but not limited to, the very recent snub of the Olympic team at Nationals.

Let me start off by saying that I in no way condone the actions of the abusers/silencers, but it’s no secret that I have not jumped on the #dismantle USAG bandwagon, and I doubt I ever will. Full disclosure, many people will disagree with what I am about to say. Some might even change their opinion of me and that’s ok. Please know that I have no intention of personally offending anyone and I feel, as I always have, that gymnastics is a sport that should be enjoyed by gymnasts of all ages and abilities. Also beware that I won’t get caught up in a virtual boxing match with anyone, but I am open to participating in any polite & mindful debate/discussion about the issues at hand. So here goes.....
1) At risk of sounding naive & cliche, not at my DD’s gym. If my DD is ‘abused’, physically, mentally, or emotionally, it is strictly at HER own hand. SHE is fully aware of her right to walk out at any time she deems fit. Will she? Nope. Why? Because she’s a fighter, strong willed, and determined. (Now I’m not even remotely implying that I feel anyone is weak.). I have asked myself why I allow her to endure this sport long before I was aware of any of this. However, there is a mental aspect of this sport that I feel coaches are just as responsible of developing as any other skill. Does every coach do it the right way? No, but I can think of several instances that I’ve read on here about how this skill or that skill has not been properly developed. Do we put out an all ban on ‘sit-lean-jump’ coaches? Nope. How do we correct this? We train them. We develop them. Anyone that’s had a child go through a mental block will agree that a course on the emotional development of children, especially young girls, would tremendously supplement USAG’s current safety course and who knows it could aid in decreasing other issues like eating disorders that are common in the sport. Will they all learn? Nope and that’s why I feel that any coach or program that belittles ANY of their gymnasts is not an appropriate environment for any child. But don’t think for a second that all coaches and programs are guilty of abusing their athletes bc this is just absolutely not true.
2) I completely agree that it is MY job as her mom to protect her from ALL harm. It’s actually this statement that convinced me to speak up, because if I’m being honest, right now, the only thing threatening her is an angry mob of people who might think they know the ‘real’ issues and who want to tear down an establishment and people that SHE admires and truly loves. What kind of parent would I be if I didn’t fight for HER voice? Shouldn’t she have a say in how to shape HER future? It may be hard to see things from my perspective, but I am curious, to you guys that are calling for total annihilation, how many of your children have actually been to The Ranch? How many of them have actually been coached or even engaged by the NTS? Not trying to be mean or rude, but do not assume things that you truly know nothing about. A couple more things about HARM. My DD’s level of gymnastics is not typical and as such requires a level of dedication and continuous education of her coaches that is also non-standard. I’m supposed to be ‘OK’ with the sub-par alternatives that would have to be implemented by dismantling the current structure as opposed to the optimal current coaching and education provided by the NTS and USAG? And for what? The hope that we as a SOCIETY not just gymnastics culture learn to STOP EXPLOITING OUR CHILDREN PERIOD in time for my grandchildren or great-grandchildren to reap the benefits? No. And for the record, no one finds the timing of some of the ‘heroes’ odd, or that some so-called ‘experts’ that are calling for the dismissal of all employees at the time of the incidents was in-fact on the payroll at the same time? I can’t help but feel that we as a gymnastics community are allowing personal gains and vendettas to continue to capitalize on the EXPLOITATION of our children. The best place for change to start to take place is inside our homes. WE, the parents, are responsible for our children. It’s our duty to be wolves, not sheep.
3.). Don’t just talk to your children about these types of things. LISTEN to them, their struggles, their opinions. ENGAGE them. Strategize solutions to their problems. SUPPORT their endeavors, their dreams, their goals. Give them the tools, teach them a better way.
I also want to say I admire the young women and their support systems that have come forward. It takes a lot of courage and strength, but again, if I’m being honest, if the mob is successful, my heroes won’t be those that endured and came forward after their dreams came true. My heroes will be the ones whose hopes and dreams were sacrificed for the ‘greater’ good.

 

[txgymfan]

Many children have no concept that they are/were abused. I took care of two girls that were physically and mentally abused. Even after the parents were divorced and the mom had only supervised visitation they never understood that they weren't bad and the abuse wasn't normal discipline. She should have been in jail for what she did but they never got it.

 

[John]

Let me start off by saying that I in no way condone the actions of the abusers/silencers, but it’s no secret that I have not jumped on the #dismantle USAG bandwagon, and I doubt I ever will. Full disclosure, many people will disagree with what I am about to say. Some might even change their opinion of me and that’s ok. Please know that I have no intention of personally offending anyone and I feel, as I always have, that gymnastics is a sport that should be enjoyed by gymnasts of all ages and abilities. Also beware that I won’t get caught up in a virtual boxing match with anyone, but I am open to participating in any polite & mindful debate/discussion about the issues at hand. So here goes.....
1) At risk of sounding naive & cliche, not at my DD’s gym. If my DD is ‘abused’, physically, mentally, or emotionally, it is strictly at HER own hand. SHE is fully aware of her right to walk out at any time she deems fit. Will she? Nope. Why? Because she’s a fighter, strong willed, and determined. (Now I’m not even remotely implying that I feel anyone is weak.). I have asked myself why I allow her to endure this sport long before I was aware of any of this. However, there is a mental aspect of this sport that I feel coaches are just as responsible of developing as any other skill. Does every coach do it the right way? No, but I can think of several instances that I’ve read on here about how this skill or that skill has not been properly developed. Do we put out an all ban on ‘sit-lean-jump’ coaches? Nope. How do we correct this? We train them. We develop them. Anyone that’s had a child go through a mental block will agree that a course on the emotional development of children, especially young girls, would tremendously supplement USAG’s current safety course and who knows it could aid in decreasing other issues like eating disorders that are common in the sport. Will they all learn? Nope and that’s why I feel that any coach or program that belittles ANY of their gymnasts is not an appropriate environment for any child. But don’t think for a second that all coaches and programs are guilty of abusing their athletes bc this is just absolutely not true.
2) I completely agree that it is MY job as her mom to protect her from ALL harm. It’s actually this statement that convinced me to speak up, because if I’m being honest, right now, the only thing threatening her is an angry mob of people who might think they know the ‘real’ issues and who want to tear down an establishment and people that SHE admires and truly loves. What kind of parent would I be if I didn’t fight for HER voice? Shouldn’t she have a say in how to shape HER future? It may be hard to see things from my perspective, but I am curious, to you guys that are calling for total annihilation, how many of your children have actually been to The Ranch? How many of them have actually been coached or even engaged by the NTS? Not trying to be mean or rude, but do not assume things that you truly know nothing about. A couple more things about HARM. My DD’s level of gymnastics is not typical and as such requires a level of dedication and continuous education of her coaches that is also non-standard. I’m supposed to be ‘OK’ with the sub-par alternatives that would have to be implemented by dismantling the current structure as opposed to the optimal current coaching and education provided by the NTS and USAG? And for what? The hope that we as a SOCIETY not just gymnastics culture learn to STOP EXPLOITING OUR CHILDREN PERIOD in time for my grandchildren or great-grandchildren to reap the benefits? No. And for the record, no one finds the timing of some of the ‘heroes’ odd, or that some so-called ‘experts’ that are calling for the dismissal of all employees at the time of the incidents was in-fact on the payroll at the same time? I can’t help but feel that we as a gymnastics community are allowing personal gains and vendettas to continue to capitalize on the EXPLOITATION of our children. The best place for change to start to take place is inside our homes. WE, the parents, are responsible for our children. It’s our duty to be wolves, not sheep.
3.). Don’t just talk to your children about these types of things. LISTEN to them, their struggles, their opinions. ENGAGE them. Strategize solutions to their problems. SUPPORT their endeavors, their dreams, their goals. Give them the tools, teach them a better way.
I also want to say I admire the young women and their support systems that have come forward. It takes a lot of courage and strength, but again, if I’m being honest, if the mob is successful, my heroes won’t be those that endured and came forward after their dreams came true. My heroes will be the ones whose hopes and dreams were sacrificed for the ‘greater’ good.

You have some very good points in your post. I support teaching our children to be their own best advocate, in all situations of life. I also believe parents should protect their children at any cost.

But the USAG did not protect the athletes and even worse promoted and continue to promote persons with questionable pasts. I will not pretend to know more than the athletes that lived the events. So many athletes have come forward to share the atrocities of their gymnastics careers in hopes that others can be protected. I will support those that testify and share the horrors, I do not believe any of these athletes have a vendetta.

With that said if the USAG were to be dissolved tomorrow what would the actual loss be? I'd like to think local meets would continue, athletes would continue to be trained and a new governing body would be formed and accredited. Possibly this new organization would learn from the mistakes of the organizations that came before them. Possibly local gyms would take safesport more seriously. Possibly the new governing body would implement more thorough safeguards and not alienate parents.

If we continue down the road we are currently on what changes? Sometimes change requires people to stand up and push back against the establishment.

 

[sevenatenine2]

Well, that's the thing. Those who have the most to lose are kids like GYMOMS daughter, and that's unfortunate because they haven't done anything wrong and have dedicated much of their young lives to going as far as they can in the sport. Obviously, a rebuilding would cause USA Gymnastics (or whatever the new name might be!) to lose a little bit of their stride while the kinks are worked out (maybe not enough funding to go to as many international meets, etc.). That's not fair. When you weigh that against continuing the status quo, though, I feel there's no question what should be done. That said, I recognize that that's pretty easy to say being removed from National Team processes, etc.