WAG Discussion of abuse in USAG - Nassar

[John]

Well, that's the thing. Those who have the most to lose are kids like GYMOMS daughter, and that's unfortunate because they haven't done anything wrong and have dedicated much of their young lives to going as far as they can in the sport. Obviously, a rebuilding would cause USA Gymnastics (or whatever the new name might be!) to lose a little bit of their stride while the kinks are worked out (maybe not enough funding to go to as many international meets, etc.). That's not fair. When you weigh that against continuing the status quo, though, I feel there's no question what should be done. That said, I recognize that that's pretty easy to say being removed from National Team processes, etc.

Very good points. Again takes me back to Penn State. Those kids on the team did nothing wrong either. Tough situation gymnastics finds itself in.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

I think USAG could be salvaged if and only if every board member and high ranking official connected to this scandal were replaced. A brand new team could feel like a brand new organization. An overhaul could be done to the entire system. Keep what works and scrap what hasn’t. Implement new policies and programs that protect our children. Maybe this approach would have less effect on the current national team and other elite athletes who are not at fault than getting rid of USAG altogether and starting with a brand new governing body.

 

[Texasmomof3]

To me the Penn State analogy doesn't quite work here. Punishing USAG as a whole would be like if you shut down NCAA football as a whole over what Sandusky did and Paterno allowed. Instead, they punished the guilty branch. The athletes at Penn State had the option to transfer out and future athletes all still had plenty of perfectly good schools.

Here, shut down the Ranch, kick any lasting vestiges of the Karolyis out of USAG, revoke Geddert's and Twister's USAG credentials and make sure Minnesota State has no further intertwining with USAG. But no need to disband USAG as a whole.

 

[sevenatenine2]

You don’t feel any blame falls with the current board and administration for allowing and promoting a culture conducive to abuse? For having Maroney sign a nondisclosure and for discouraging the Nichols from going to law enforcement?

To me the Penn State analogy doesn't quite work here. Punishing USAG as a whole would be like if you shut down NCAA football as a whole over what Sandusky did and Paterno allowed. Instead, they punished the guilty branch. The athletes at Penn State had the option to transfer out and future athletes all still had plenty of perfectly good schools.

Here, shut down the Ranch, kick any lasting vestiges of the Karolyis out of USAG, revoke Geddert's and Twister's USAG credentials and make sure Minnesota State has no further intertwining with USAG. But no need to disband USAG as a whole.

 

[Texasmomof3]

Yes, and replace the leadership of USAG as well. They have already begun that process and house cleaning should continue there, too.

 

[coachmolly]

I was shocked to find this out myself. I read an article by one of the professionals in this field. They were pissed because of media incorrect reporting on the subject, constantly calling it a "rare procedure". Even more pissed that Nassar abused it, because it does apparently help many people.

I really don't feel like that's a strong argument in this case. Even if it is a real medical procedure that has been proven effective in cases of hip/back injury (and I haven't really seen much strong evidence to support that), it's not a procedure that should be done on children without clearly explaining the procedure to both the child and the parent in easy to understand terms and receiving consent from a parent before proceeding. Even then, it should be done in a medical office with another staff member present (who is 100% clear on how the procedure SHOULD happen so there is no gray area).

 

[GYM0M]

But don't you think that an organization that does things like appoint Marta Karolyi to be the leader of it, knowing full well the allegations of abuse that surrounded their program, contributed in a large part to the culture that allowed abuse to run wild? I'm not even talking about the claims in Romania, but even the stories found in Kerri Strug's book illustrate abuse---and she's one of his supporters. Dominque Moceanu took it even further, and I believe every word that she said. Gosh, even the story of making her do some outrageous number of bar sets at the 1995 worlds podium training because they were mad at her has to be easily verified by all the other coaches in attendance. USAG supported that culture by celebrating the Karolyi's and elevating Marta (and Bela, first) to NTC knowing the allegations of abuse. They did the same thing with Valeri. Vanessa Atler has spoken about her experiences as well as Katelyn Ohashi.

And I know you are teaching your daughter to be her own advocate. I do the same. But USAG also created a culture to which her other protectors (parents and personal coaches) were not ALLOWED to be around gymnasts at the times of abuse because of rules put into place by USAG. I often wondered where the personal coaches were. If I had an athlete that needed to be treated or seen by a doctor, I would go with them in lieu of their parents. I dug a little bit and found that the treatments happened in the dorms where the personal coaches weren't allowed. It is a bit much to think it's okay to place a 10 year old in a situation where she is up against an abuser with no one there that has her best interests at heart---and, I'm sorry, but USAG does not. They have proven that the kids are expendable to them. They might have her best interests, when it comes to gymnastics, in mind because that will ultimately benefit them---but as far as her as a person? Nothing I've read about the program gives me any hope about that, including but not limited to, the very recent snub of the Olympic team at Nationals.

In terms of my DD, was I concerned when my 8 year old started these camps? Absolutely. But even then, almost four years ago, before anything of this magnitude came to light, and I’ll freely admit that if the accusations were made back then, i was not aware, but even then, the rules were that no adults, other than chaperones, were allowed in the gymnasts’ rooms. This dirtbag violated the rules put in place like most predators do. They will find a way. And from what I’ve gathered, having a parent in close proximity wasn’t a deterrent for Dirtbag. I don’t know how I feel about the accusations against Valeri. Every interaction I’ve witnessed between my DD and him has been nothing but positive. Maybe he is different because he’s no longer vying for a spot? I don’t know. I will agree that his primary concern has got to be results, but my personal experience tells me this is not his only concern. If he only cared about winning, I don’t think he would make it a point to encourage my DD after a disappointing meet. Do I blame USAG for the win-at-all-costs atmosphere? Nope, because can we honestly say that kind of mentality is limited to gymnastics? Some little leagues are cut-throat!

 

[vagymmomma]

You don’t feel any blame falls with the current board and administration for allowing and promoting a culture conducive to abuse? For having Maroney sign a nondisclosure and for discouraging the Nichols from going to law enforcement?

The NDA doesn't bother me. That is pretty standard in these types of settlements.

 

[GYM0M]

@John If we force an overhaul, do you think anyone would hang around to pick up the pieces to form a new foundation? And by anyone, I’m talking about the ones who actually know how to coach our elite athletes and those on the brink. So then who is left? The athleted that are calling for change? That’s not a good idea bc all too often former victims turn into abusers, and gymnastics is a frustrating sport on a good day. BUT what if we gave them a deadline, like CO2 reduction, like by the end of 2018, new bylaws that puts term limits on high ranking offices, quarterly reports to be analyzed by independent organizations, implementing a athlete safety and security council for anonymous reporting. These types of things send the message to the board members that they need to be put in check, but doesn’t not harm the athletes in any way. I don’t have all the answers, but people have to stop seeing so much red so that we can all work together to find a favorable solution.
@TumbleTimes4 You have to understand that the girls in Valeri’s Developmental Program already feel like a new team. Those girls don’t know any different. The atmosphere at The Ranch is vastly different from the way it’s currently publicized.

 

[coachmolly]

@John If we force an overhaul, do you think anyone would hang around to pick up the pieces to form a new foundation? And by anyone, I’m talking about the ones who actually know how to coach our elite athletes and those on the brink. So then who is left? The athleted that are calling for change? That’s not a good idea bc all too often former victims turn into abusers, and gymnastics is a frustrating sport on a good day.

No. While it isn't uncommon for a man who perpetrates heinous sexual acts to have been abused in the past (and often there are other variables that skew those stats), to jump to the conclusion that "all too often former victims turn into abusers" is a radical overstatement and the argument is essentially non-existent when the victims of abuse are female. It's also an attack on women who have been the victims of far too much already to suggest that the fact that they have been victims of a vicious child predator has made them incapable of leading and serving. While these women are young and obviously do not have the business prowess to jump into a position as president of a national governing body, they have absolutely shown that they have the strength, integrity, courage, and moral compass to make incredible leaders in the field of athlete advocacy.

 

[Fijiwater]

You have some very good points in your post. I support teaching our children to be their own best advocate, in all situations of life. I also believe parents should protect their children at any cost.

But the USAG did not protect the athletes and even worse promoted and continue to promote persons with questionable pasts. I will not pretend to know more than the athletes that lived the events. So many athletes have come forward to share the atrocities of their gymnastics careers in hopes that others can be protected. I will support those that testify and share the horrors, I do not believe any of these athletes have a vendetta.

With that said if the USAG were to be dissolved tomorrow what would the actual loss be? I'd like to think local meets would continue, athletes would continue to be trained and a new governing body would be formed and accredited. Possibly this new organization would learn from the mistakes of the organizations that came before them. Possibly local gyms would take safesport more seriously. Possibly the new governing body would implement more thorough safeguards and not alienate parents.

If we continue down the road we are currently on what changes? Sometimes change requires people to stand up and push back against the establishment.

Or the New Governing Body could be absent a ton of experience an expertise of good people lost in the "cleaning of the house". And possibly take many years to be near the level of USAG. That being said USAG could also learn from their mistakes.

 

[Fijiwater]

Well, that's the thing. Those who have the most to lose are kids like GYMOMS daughter, and that's unfortunate because they haven't done anything wrong and have dedicated much of their young lives to going as far as they can in the sport. Obviously, a rebuilding would cause USA Gymnastics (or whatever the new name might be!) to lose a little bit of their stride while the kinks are worked out (maybe not enough funding to go to as many international meets, etc.). That's not fair. When you weigh that against continuing the status quo, though, I feel there's no question what should be done. That said, I recognize that that's pretty easy to say being removed from National Team processes, etc.

2020 kids will suffer the MOST. Not so much developmental kids.

 

[Fijiwater]

I really don't feel like that's a strong argument in this case. Even if it is a real medical procedure that has been proven effective in cases of hip/back injury (and I haven't really seen much strong evidence to support that), it's not a procedure that should be done on children without clearly explaining the procedure to both the child and the parent in easy to understand terms and receiving consent from a parent before proceeding. Even then, it should be done in a medical office with another staff member present (who is 100% clear on how the procedure SHOULD happen so there is no gray area).

Here's the link to the article I read. It basically says everything you just said. http://www.casiedpt.com/pelvic-pain-blog/treatmentvsabuse I wasn't trying to make an excuse, I was just shocked to find out its an actual thing....

 

[Fijiwater]

The NDA doesn't bother me. That is pretty standard in these types of settlements.

I've heard this twice now from lawyers.

 

[John]

Ideas are good, that is what I was trying to foster.

The problem is that currently the voice of a 11 year old gymnasts daf, me, means nothing. The elite coaches, elite athletes, and parents of elite gymnasts probably have the loudest voices at this time. They are also in a position of risk. But I beleive when you are in a position of power you have to stand up and do what is best for everyone.

 

[GYM0M]

No. While it isn't uncommon for a man who perpetrates heinous sexual acts to have been abused in the past (and often there are other variables that skew those stats), to jump to the conclusion that "all too often former victims turn into abusers" is a radical overstatement and the argument is essentially non-existent when the victims of abuse are female. It's also an attack on women who have been the victims of far too much already to suggest that the fact that they have been victims of a vicious child predator has made them incapable of leading and serving. While these women are young and obviously do not have the business prowess to jump into a position as president of a national governing body, they have absolutely shown that they have the strength, integrity, courage, and moral compass to make incredible leaders in the field of athlete advocacy.

I apologize that I wasn’t more clear. I wasn’t insinuating that the victims of the Dirtbag would themselves turn into sexual predators. I was more specifically referring to victims of verbal, mental and emotional abuse at the hand of their coaches. It was mentioned earlier that the line on this is often blurry at best. Have you ever heard you teach how you were taught?

 

[Fijiwater]

Ideas are good, that is what I was trying to foster.

The problem is that currently the voice of a 11 year old gymnasts daf, me, means nothing. The elite coaches, elite athletes, and parents of elite gymnasts probably have the loudest voices at this time. They are also in a position of risk. But I beleive when you are in a position of power you have to stand up and do what is best for everyone.

THIS IS EXACTLY RIGHT! National team athlete's, coaches and parents should indeed have the loudest voices! I cant imagine how 2020 hopefuls must feel watching all this go down. I don't believe any of them would be afraid to speak up or go to Valeri with an issue. He is night and day difference than Marta. I'm afraid though that they won't have the biggest influence on how they want things done unless they start speaking up about what they like and don't like. They may already be doing that within USAG but publicly the loudest voices are trashing everyone in USAG down to the janitor. And I don't think it will not stop until they're paid or USAG doesn't exist anymore. Or current national team members speak up. This lawyer the victims got is no fool he has won many multimillion dollar lawsuits. And I think it's pretty obvious now he is slow rolling this thing like Wikileaks did with Hillary's emails, to keep the story relevant and pressure on USAG to play catch up. I assume USAG is bound from speaking about any of the victims until they actually make there identity public then and only then can they try to be publicly supportive while correcting anything they find to be inaccurate.

 

[Seeker]

Aly is swinging for the fences right now , http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/10/us/aly-raisman-usa-gymnastics-abuse/index.html

Good!!

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

So.... I'm considering declining to renew my USAG membership next year.

It's feeling more and more like it would be best if USAG either went bankrupt and folded completely or was rebuilt from the ground up. If it were to fold entirely, it would be devastating for the national/olympic team, and would mean many clubs wouldn't really be able to compete under current structure, but..... all the kids at the gyms would keep training. The team kids would keep training, and there wouldn't be any change for the rec kids. By and large, gymnastics in the USA would keep on keeping on.

But I'm not comfortable with my membership fees going to help an organization that tried to keep sexual abuse quiet. My membership dues could be paying their legal fees.

But declining to renew means I wouldn't be able to attend meets. It would prevent me from working in full capacity as a team coach at my gym, and at most gyms, and where I am in life right now I REALLY can't afford a pay cut.

Idunno. I guess I'll see what happens between now and whenever I'm due for renewal.

 

[profmom]

This is a moment where a grass roots movement organized among coaches and owners could make a significant difference.

(Oh, and in terms of who's taking the hardest hit, it's worth noting that the elite men's program lost its Hilton sponsorship, which was supporting training at the OTC. I don't know what's going on at OTC, but I am concerned about the current state of the high performance program now, not just in the future. It may be up to colleges to serve as a safety net, and as we have discussed, it's a darn thin net at this point.)