WAG Does age make a difference in scores?

[aamake]

A bunch of parents were talking last night around the gym. One mom commented that judging is much harsher with older age groups than with younger ones. Her daughter is 13 and competing level 5. She said that judging is much harder because they expect more with the senior age groups than the little ones in Junior A who are 7 and 8 years old competing level 5. I hadn't noticed a difference in judging at all. What do you think?

 

[wallinbl]

From what I've noticed (in my limited 3 years of watching compulsory meets), the younger ones are better than the older ones. Unless the older one started late, they'd be in a higher level than 5 by now. This is largely a generalization and certainly doesn't apply to all kids, situations, etc, but just my experience, generalized. I think this paragraph probably reads harsher than I mean it - I'm just referring to inferred "averages" of moving up a level every 1-2 years (this may not hold true, but it seems to be about average from what I've seen of girls around our state).

If you're 7 and already in level 5, you're pretty darn good. I would expect you to score well.

 

[Quadqueen]

No, a good judge should not judge an older gymnast more harshly, but many parents of older gymnasts believe this is the case.

 

[gymgal]

This topic seems to be revisited at the start of every season. Parents are trying to make sense of the score discrepancies - which are blaring in certain areas.

People claim the "cuteness" factor of the younger group, neatness (smaller bodies often look tighter that taller ones), more talent.

I would say its a combination of factors. But it isn't across the board. Often times, particularly on bars, it's the middle group (10-12) that has the highest scores.

 

[cbone]

I agree with a lot of what's been said. The "cuteness factor" arguments seem to come from the parents of older gymnasts who (for whatever reason) have repeated levels (and are usually chronic repeaters). Like wallinbl, I'm not meaning to sound harsh. Younger gymnasts are often fearless, really attacking skills, while repeating gymnasts (who often repeat due to fear issues) approach skills more cautiously. The judges see that and I believe it impacts scores. I will say this, though- if there are cute points, the judges forgot to give them to my daughter on her beam routine last weekend.

I have found, in my limited experience, that older gymnasts who are new score BETTER than younger gymnasts. We have a girl who is 12 or 13 that started gymnastics a few months ago and was supposed to be on our Level 3 team. She worked hard and was moved to the Level 4 team. At her first ever meet, she scored a 36 AA. Older kids have better body control than younger kids, even if they don't have as much gymnastics aptitude. When they have both, they accomplish some special things in their relatively short time in the sport.

 

[Natasha]

There is only one set of judging criteria and it is used for all gymnasts in the whole level. The judges have the list of gymnasts in competitive order and there competition numbers. If they have their ages I doubt they are even taking time to look at their ages. As we all know, you can not always tell the age of the gymnast by looking at them, so the whole "the judges expect more out of the older girls" doesn't even make sense. I agree with the poster above, parents come up with many reasons for things as they try to make sense of scores. Since awards are broken up by age divisions, it would make no sense for the judges to try to adjust scores based on age. Sounds like the mom in the lobby is trying to help herself feel better.

 

[Quadqueen]

I once talked to a parent at DD's gym who insisted to me that judges do judge older girls more harshly...that was her explanation of why my DD scored better than her older DD in the same level

 

[wallinbl]

I once talked to a parent at DD's gym who insisted to me that judges do judge older girls more harshly...that was her explanation of why my DD scored better than her older DD in the same level

It's always nice to hear someone minimize your child's hard work and accomplishments, isn't it?

 

[gymgal]

As we all know, you can not always tell the age of the gymnast by looking at them, so the whole "the judges expect more out of the older girls" doesn't even make sense.........
....... Since awards are broken up by age divisions, it would make no sense for the judges to try to adjust scores based on age.

The debate is in general terms of age. You can typically tell the difference between a 7yr old and a 14yr old. Personally, I don't think any age/size bias is intentional on the part of the judges. I don't think they purposely set out to give the younger girls higher scores. Judging is very subjective and while the code of points appears to be objective, there is a lot of wiggle room in hoe much of a deduction you can take off (up to .3 is listed for many deductions).

And anyone who doesn't believe in judge bias ought to come to some NC meets, where leotard bias is strong and real. But that's a topic for another day....

I think cbone makes a great point about the fear and hesitation factor. Older girls generally deal with a lot more fear than younger ones do and any amount of hesitation or compensation due to ironing out fears can play a part in how fluid a routine is. That still doesn't account for younger girls getting higher scores on equally well performed routines, it does account for the general score differences across age groups.

 

[LizzieLac]

The debate is in general terms of age. You can typically tell the difference between a 7yr old and a 14yr old. Personally, I don't think any age/size bias is intentional on the part of the judges. I don't think they purposely set out to give the younger girls higher scores. Judging is very subjective and while the code of points appears to be objective, there is a lot of wiggle room in hoe much of a deduction you can take off (up to .3 is listed for many deductions). And anyone who doesn't believe in judge bias ought to come to some NC meets, where leotard bias is strong and real. But that's a topic for another day.... I think cbone makes a great point about the fear and hesitation factor. Older girls generally deal with a lot more fear than younger ones do and any amount of hesitation or compensation due to ironing out fears can play a part in how fluid a routine is. That still doesn't account for younger girls getting higher scores on equally well performed routines, it does account for the general score differences across age groups.

AGREE - ditto in my state.

 

[SGMOM]

What difference does it make anyway? They don't compete against each other. I've heard this at our gym too.

One thing I do think might be true is that, the later you go in the meet, the higher the score. It does seem like the judges get tired and just miss more as the meet drags on.

So, maybe if the seniors tend to go in the earlier sessions then this might be true?

 

[vagymmomma]

What difference does it make anyway? They don't compete against each other. I've heard this at our gym too.

In terms of the medals they ultimately earn it may not matter, but my experience is that girls on the same team are always doing some type of comparisons. This gymnast is best at this or another gymnast is best at that. It's amazing what a couple extra tenths can do for a young gymnast's sense of bragging. Sorry to sound harsh, but I've encountered some very talented girls who are just plain mean.

The basic scoring rules are the same, but there are definitely elements of gymnastics scoring that are subjective. Personally, I have not found much truth to the "cuteness points". Judges are human and sometimes they just miss things. I'm amazed how many parents really just don't understand the finer points of the skills, so they don't understand why the score is so low.

My experience is that the fear factor definitely increases with age, but the older starting gymnasts tend to progress a little faster. A coach has told me that kids of different ages learn differently.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i've been doing this a long time...generally speaking, the younger age groups are not judged as harshly. my opinion is that there is nothing wrong with this. a 15 year old can take a "beating" when it comes to scores. 8 year old's not so much. they would quit in droves if they did to them what they do to the older kids. it's all part of the process.

 

[gymgal]

In terms of the medals they ultimately earn it may not matter, but my experience is that girls on the same team are always doing some type of comparisons. This gymnast is best at this or another gymnast is best at that. It's amazing what a couple extra tenths can do for a young gymnast's sense of bragging. Sorry to sound harsh, but I've encountered some very talented girls who are just plain mean.

Well, it actually does matter in some states where regionals are determined by a specified number of top scores (top 50). Region 8 uses top scores across age divisions to determine their L7 and 8 participants for each state to go to regionals. These participants tend to have more younger than older. Again, I personally think that other factors are in play more than simply age/cuteness but score discrepancies definitely matter.

And your point about comparisons in a gym rings true too. Why we know there can be a wide range of scores from meet to meet (different judges), most parents and gymnasts trust that the judges within one meet are scoring equally so when they compare older/younger gymnasts' scores from the same meet, lots of questions arise.

 

[sglemon]

It was explained to me by a coach, using level 4 vault as an example. When you are looking at a 5 ft girl vault vs one that is just 4 ft, minor form breaks, like a slightly piked body, bent knee, will be more pronounced on a longer body. Longer legs will will make a slightly bent knee more obvious. On the same topic, a taller child will need more strength to get that extra foot of height, tight, then someone a foot shorter. From a judging perpective, sometimes those smaller foam breaks are harder to see on a smaller body.

My DD is young, when she started level 4 at just turned 7, she was already 6 inches taller then any other child on the team her age. Actually, when she would stand on the podium in 2nd or 3rd place, often her head was the same height at the girl standing in first. So regardless of the age, the height is something we have always dealt with. She also looks and acts 2 yrs older than her peers. I never felt she was judged unfairly. But I have seen smaller girls with big bows and smiles, get much higher scores, sometimes higher than deserved.

In my state there is a bias in judging, but has nothing to do with size and age. I could go on, but I won't.

 

[Quadqueen]

I agree there is bias in judging, but in my example, this parent actually believed judges are SUPPOSED TO judge older girls more harshly. Sglemon, my daughter is also quite tall for her age but is pretty young for her level, but I don't see bias based on age/size.

 

[wallinbl]

Longer legs will will make a slightly bent knee more obvious.

They also make straight lines look amazing.

 

[GymBee97]

I agree with Gymgal. I don't think any judge purposely scores harsher but they are only human and their personal bias can creep into their judging. When you have an UP TO deduction then for the same issue in a routine they could tak .1 for this gal and .3 for the next and still be ok. I do believe there are cutie points to be had out there again those "up to" deductions come into play.

I don't think at a specific level age really makes a judge take off more deductions but as they move through the levels from L4 to L5 to L6 and so on they expect the basic skills at least to improve.

 

[SGMOM]

At our gym, when our girls were level 3 and all achievement, the older girls did better. They just had better body control. Then, at level 4, the younger girls were doing better. Even though the judges hadn't changed from the previous season, even at meets when all of the girls were in the same session, the younger ones started outscoring the older ones. The parents at our gym say it's because the judges are being unfair and scoring the younger ones easier. With this logic, I should be able to go to mymeetscores.com and find that the top 100 all around scorers are all junior A's, right? Maybe I should just ask the judges to fill out the score cards at march-in, because by then they know everyones size and cuteness, and it would save us all a lot of time

 

[Mack_the_Ripper]

Keep in mind the oldest age group in compulsory meets is usually girls who are 12-14. This group is going through puberty and experiencing growth spurts...it can be incredibly hard to adjust to a changing body. I think pretty much everyone loses skills and form during this period, me and Vika Komova both .

Although it is true that some older girls have nice long lines, I think the majority wind up with "gymnast thighs". Good for tumbling, but they don't look very nice on bars. Alas. Hopefully a "good line" doesn't influence judges as much as actual form.

In the end there are so many factors that go into one score that it isn't possible to simply compare across age groups. When I'm a famous economist, I'll do a regression analysis and come up with the answer for y'all. So just pause for about 10 years.