elite compulsaries

[gymnut1]

I am quite certain you could pit top NCAA gymnasts on most events against national teams in other countries

I disagree. A few NCAA gymnasts have been looking to return to elite or go elite and gererally struggle. However ex elite gymnasts can do well in NCAA. It is very different.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

hey guys, still have my post saved. the site won't let me post it tonight either. i'll keep trying.

i'll try it in smaller parts and see what happens. i apologize for lengthening the thread. can't think of anything else...

okay, here goes. the reason for 'open' bar settings in the JO program is to accomodate all different sizes and body types. in this way, what they learn is restricted by their own personal biology and most likely will not exclude mass partcipation by all children. less than 1/2 of 1 percent will achieve the elite level. as i have posted before, and i forget where i got this but is a snapshot in my head, just in a population you must have 4 million births to field 1 olympic gymnastics team every 4 years. and as i have posted before, USAG has well over 60,000 registered competitive athletes levels 5-10. when you combine those of the other countries that have gymnastics, and not all of them do, it is estimated that there are a combined total of 25-30 thousand competitve gymnasts worldwide excluding the USA.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

as i have posted before, if you just took the top 50 NCAA teams and selected their top 6 gymnasts at each event we could have several olympic teams many times over. that's just 300 gymnasts total. yet the top 6 could easily score 14.00 and up in the FIG code scoring system if they were allowed 'open' equipment settings. and many of the NCAA gymnasts don't even perform 1/2 of what they know how to do because they use a modified JO judging system. in other words, they do less to achieve a higher score. this is by design and prolongs the careers of the gymnasts that are in college. too bad chusovitina didn't come here...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

when you measure a horizontal straight line from the high bar to the low bar you have a 'drop' distance of 33 inches. and with ALL manufacturers uneven bars, if you move the high bar or low bar just 1 'click' can cause a change of 2 inches upon raising or lowering. the FIG and their safety commissions are aware of the following. if a gymnast is performing a bail swing to handstand on the low bar, and it came from a handstand on the high bar, they will create mass x force swing that will produce 10 x the gymnasts body mass. so, if the gymnast is 100 pounds, that will be a total of 1500 pounds per square inch of force when that same athlete drops from the high bar to the low bar. i don't think a dissertation is required here for one to ascertain the forces being applied to the hands/bones, wrists/bones and the elbow structure. in fact, you will be hard pressed to find china doing bails and counter swings [some call these straddle backs] due to the spike in injuries they experienced just a few years ago. their release of choice is a pak salto. and this is in large part due to their orthopaedic anatomies. different cultures are anatomically/anthropometrically different from each other. for another conversation, this is why you find ALL of their gymnasts performing intricate invert work. therefore, if you raise the high bar 2 'clicks' and leave the low bar at FIG you find a total of 37 inches in the drop from the high bar to the low bar. that's over 3 feet. now don't try this at home...but imagine standing 3 feet above the ground and jumping down to a handstand on the ground. now imagine doing the same on to a bar...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

in the US, learning how to coach is in a constant state of educational perpetuity. and the US has over 20,000 registered coaches. and remember that you must only register if you plan on being on the floor of a USA sanctioned event. we have thousands of coaches in the US that are not registered. and coaching bars is very difficult. so, the easy way is to just spread them out. and low bar becomes less of an obstacle. and though bars becomes, and don't be overtly alarmed, a bit more dangerous and precarious the farther you move them away from FIG, the code provides restrictions thru level 8 that 'police' the safety of what is being performed, so to speak. hopefully, by time a coach gets an athlete to level 9 he/she will have learned enough to know where to set the bars for their athletes. this learning curve takes a long time and a curve that some will never understand which is in evidence today.

as for NCAA, the US is the only country that has the university system for competitive gymnastics. and a system that includes athletic scholarships. the US system is different because it has to be to accomodate the various levels of competitive gymnastics that exist here. and also keep in mind that the US has Turners, Sokol, YMCA, Park Districts, etc; where thousands more are found and NOT registered with USAG although these organizations have adopted the guidelines, rules and policies of USAG. this means open equipment settings.

and well stated wandrewjr. "Can you imagine how many girls would be pushed out of the sport if all level 7's and up had to compete on the elite bar setting?!"
i don't even want to imagine what the answer to that question might be...

that's all for now.

 

[gymdog]

I disagree. A few NCAA gymnasts have been looking to return to elite or go elite and gererally struggle. However ex elite gymnasts can do well in NCAA. It is very different.

I'm just saying, for example, if we had a beam showdown between our national team and the top NCAA performers, it would be a pretty good match. Some aspects of the programs are obviously different, but those who don't think the NCAA gymnasts could hold their own on some of the events (and even bars with open equipment settings as dunno said - keep in mind a lot of these young women aren't tiny) are probably underestimating the quality of gymnasts currently competing in the NCAA system. These are not average athletes by any means, particularly when you get in the top level of the competitions. Many of them are competing "below" their ability level in many respects, but the consistency is really impressive nevertheless. And most do not try to do elite because they are at the end of their careers. Others face serious obstacles somewhat unrelated to their sheer athletic ability. Some have gone and made Olympic teams. It's really too small a sample size. But I am not really trying to say these gymnasts could or would go through the national team system in the US as we have it now - I am saying that despite not using the FIG system there are tons of athletes who achieve a very high level. The competition rules may be different but that doesn't really make it that much "easier," just somewhat more accomodating to different body types. It's really only the top percentage of gymnasts who will achieve these level and at the height of their NCAA careers they are probably better than the vast percentage of gymnasts in the world (certainly the US).

 

[Deleted member D3987]

preach!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Muddlethru]

Wow Dunno! Thanks for the info. I never realized how difficult that switch from high bar to low bar can be. We've always taken forgranted the physics of running, and how much pressure is put on the balls of the feet when we run because we are always on our feet. But when described as above, it certainly puts everything into perspective as far as difficulty/injury level in this sport. Thanks for the post. As usual, it is a great one.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Agreed, the top competitiors in NCAA competition are AMAZING! And they could definately hang with the best elites in the world when it comes to technique and especially consistency (no one can hit a beam set like a top college team).

BUT one of the main reasons that women can continue to compete at this high level in college and stay healthy is they don't have to follow FIG guidelines and scoring. Many 21 and 22 year old gymnasts would not be able to continue competing at this level if they had to train 5 different saltos for their beam routines or train 4 different release moves for their bar set. It would put much more strain on their bodies and we would likely see a much higher injury rate.

The system we have in the US really is unique and great. Hundreds of women get to continue high level competitive gymnastics into their early twenties(and if you count division 2 and 3 schools it probably puts that number in the thousand range)!