WAG Fast twitch?

[wallinbl]

400M runners for instance, a very curious bunch! and 800M runners too.

Hey! I resemble that remark! (Those were my two main events, as I wasn't fast enough for shorter distances or for longer distances, but I could excel in the middle distances) And, despite what anyone tells you, they're the most miserable distances (try holding 90+% of sprint speed for 1/2 mile, you'll want to die).

 

[Midwestmommy]

PS to this day (and it's been years not months), my daughter loves kicking the rears in competition of a couple of kids who were handpicked for preteam when she was told no two years running. She was never on preteam and went right from rec to competing because those handpicking the preteam didn't have enough space after getting brothers and sisters, their friends' kids, a couple of the truly talented, etc into the "high potential bunch." I too have my biases!!

 

[Uglybetty]

I'm fascinated by this whole slow/fast twitch/body-type stuff, but I'm wondering if someone can explain something to me:

If body type and genetics are so important, how do you explain sibling gymnasts?

What I have in mind is this...in the UK we have two serving Olympians who have siblings who also did gymnastics (there may be more, these are just ones I know about). Becky Downie's younger sister Ellie is also a world class gymnast. The other Olympian's older sister only ever competed regionally. Surely they were genetically equally likely to succeed at this crazy sport.

I can't help but think that genetics is one piece of the puzzle....another huge part is finding a coach who doesn't write you off because you started a bit late or don't fit their ideal body type!

 

[profmom]

I was entranced by the story of the Tanaka siblings in the 2012 Olympics. And horrified by thinking about what this must have been like for their parents! Can you imagine having THREE of them competing at that level?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/03/oly-gymn-japan-siblings-idUSL3E8I20N720120703

 

[wallinbl]

I'm fascinated by this whole slow/fast twitch/body-type stuff, but I'm wondering if someone can explain something to me:

If body type and genetics are so important, how do you explain sibling gymnasts?

What I have in mind is this...in the UK we have two serving Olympians who have siblings who also did gymnastics (there may be more, these are just ones I know about). Becky Downie's younger sister Ellie is also a world class gymnast. The other Olympian's older sister only ever competed regionally. Surely they were genetically equally likely to succeed at this crazy sport.

Only if they're identical twins.

 

[BachFlyer]

Fascinating post. I never gave it much thought for gym, until L9/10, where I really started to notice how my dd is clearly better on bars and beam now, but the tumbling and vaulting is hard for her. She can do a 2 1/2. She can do a double back on floor, but had to switch from a tuck to pike to help speed up her rotation. But, she CAN do it - the difference is really only perceptible when compared to our super tumblers. I guess it leads me to believe that there must be at least some grey area in the fast versus slow twitch, or she wouldn't have made it this far.

To go back to the track analogy, I know the kid is definitely not slow twitch, because I lived that one! If there a such thing as "snail-twitch" , that would have been me...great a 2 mile but would trip over myself trying to run anything less than 800. We've done some practicing lately with her younger sister who is a runner. If I were to place my gymnast dd in her best event as a track coach, it would be the 400 for sure. She can run the mile at a decent time but nothing spectacular. She can hold her own on the 100 but not lightening. However, she outpaced every single first place finisher of the 400m at ALL the meets we attended this season, on her first attempt, with no competition and no practice. Go figure.

Still wish there was a way to get some more lightening-twitch and a decent vault out of her though ​

 

[MissLisa]

This topic has been really interesting to watch. I really don't think you can pick who will be a great gymnast at 5 years old. There is just too many factors to account for (one of which is muscle fibre type which I believe is a fairly small issue in the scheme of things). If I was selecting at a young age, I would be looking for gymnasts that have the ability to pick skills up quickly, know where they are in space, can follow instructions, have some level of body tension and flexibility and has a level of desire to have good form. The thing is I also believe that all these things develop in children at different stages. It is rare to have a 5 year old who has body awareness (this scientifically develops later than 5).

From experience as a gymnast, I was never brilliant at the lower levels and never did fantastically in competitions during levels 1-3. As soon as I started competing level 4-7 I did a lot better (in Australia). The skills and flexibility to suit the skills to my strengths was helpful. I shot through these levels very quickly as I already had the skills before I was officially in the level. That been said I do have more fast twitch muscle fibre types and much prefer to use my anaerobic system. But really there is no way to know whether it has developed from all the training I did as a young kid? I was good at all types of athletics. 100,200,400 were my best lengths but I would place in everything up to cross country. Now I can barely run 1 km straight but I can run and then walk and then run etc 5 km faster than my brother can jog it. I'm using my preferred systems to my benefit!

Anyways I find this fascinating really interested to hear what others have to say!

 

[kecks]

well, regarding track: even in the 400 and 800 - the really winning folks are always the one with a decent 100m time, too (meaning they can qualify for nationals at the shorter distances, too, but are even better at the longer sprints; 800 is trained like a long sprint, not like you would train for middle distance race like 1500, 3000...). sprint coaches have a saying: you can't make a donkey a race horse. that's just very true. you can always and should always make the donkey a much faster donkey, but the slow twitch people will never ever catch up to fast twitch kids. it just does not happen, no believe or training on this planet will change that. and yes, you can see the very fast twicht kids at age 5 to 6 no problem when they sprint and jump. they just are much faster than the rest of the bunch.
(i guess in gym you can also be successfull with moderate fast twitch people - nastia liukin was already mentioned. being very fast also has downsides - lots of work for flexibilty needed, much more prone to muscle strains...)

 

[ollieblueeyes]

In my program, kids who have ADHD type behaviors tend to be the fastest and most accurate learners.

Wish I had known this 8 yrs ago.....my ADHD child begged for years to do gymnastics but I resisted bc focus.....she did soccer, swim, basketball etc....finally after witnessing cartwheels during a ball game I gave in. Her program must be similar because focus has never been an issue!

 

[Midwestmommy]

Just checked our state meet results. None of the top 20 800 runners were top 20 100m runners. 100m takes 10 seconds, yep 400 and 800 are "sprints " too, but very different in some ways due to the time in the race.

 

[kecks]

they obviously would not compete both (100 and 800) in an important meet. you wanna focus on what you trained for. look for the top 400 contenders and then search for their 100/200 results (they should do some under distance work early in the year in smaller comps). usually (at least here in europe) they will be eligible at the shorter distance for nationals most of the time, too, because without fast basics you won't be doing fast 400. speed kills.

 

[wallinbl]

Just checked our state meet results. None of the top 20 800 runners were top 20 100m runners. 100m takes 10 seconds, yep 400 and 800 are "sprints " too, but very different in some ways due to the time in the race.

Unless they're from small schools, I'd be surprised to see the 800 runners even competing in the 100.

 

[wallinbl]

they obviously would not compete both (100 and 800) in an important meet. you wanna focus on what you trained for. look for the top 400 contenders and then search for their 100/200 results (they should do some under distance work early in the year in smaller comps). usually (at least here in europe) they will be eligible at the shorter distance for nationals most of the time, too, because without fast basics you won't be doing fast 400. speed kills.

Yeah, I could get through qualification heats in the 100, but I'd get killed in the finals (I could hang in the 400/800 finals, but wasn't ever going to do better than 4th or 5th in the state meets or big meets).

 

[Canadian_gym_mom]

Ever deal with track? No amount of training will get your good cross country runners to win the 100m. Likewise, you're not likely to find a top 100m runner that does well at cross country.

And, yes, energy systems factor into this. Fast twitch fibers rely on ATP, part of the alactic anaerobic energy system, where slow twitch fibers are more dependent on the aerobic energy system.

I remember a thread a while back that mentioned this and apparently I have a dd that is the exception to this rule because in fact, at her old school's track and field day, she won both the sprint and the long distance races.

It could be that her school just didn't have anyone else who can run. Or that she is just that much more fit than the others because of her gym training. But she did it.

 

[Faith]

Genetics is a complicated thing. Dominance, recessive genes, recombination, the 1:4 chance of inheriting a particular gene....

So if one sibling is successful in a sport, there is a bigger chance of another sibling being successful, compared to the general population. But no guarantee- plus you can't discount psychology and personality in elite sport. Also most coaches with half a brain will automatically select siblings for fast track at an early age because statistically they're more likely to have the genetic make up needed, and been hanging around in the gym since birth watching and absorbing….

One of my issues with the uk elite system is it can hinder fast twitch kids (IMO/ime!). Fast twitchers can struggle with the control needed for r&c, and are often that 'busy' it's hard to see their potential.

Dd1 is very fast twitch. I always had a feeling she'd shine when the skills got hard, and indeed, she learned skills like double somersaults easily, and far more quickly than she learned a BWO and even a handstand.

 

[wallinbl]

I remember a thread a while back that mentioned this and apparently I have a dd that is the exception to this rule because in fact, at her old school's track and field day, she won both the sprint and the long distance races.

It could be that her school just didn't have anyone else who can run. Or that she is just that much more fit than the others because of her gym training. But she did it.

High school, or elementary/middle school? At younger ages, that's not at all surprising, and the "athletes", especially the gifted ones, will dominate nearly every event (especially if they have a competitive nature).

There are also exceptions - decathlon athletes are a special breed, though it's unlikely they would win any of the individual events.

 

[Midwestmommy]

With some kids (like mine) there is also the issue of learning/getting comfortable with putting the "pedal to the metal." My daughter has recently been surprising me with how fast she can run. Seems something triggered in her brain to go full throttle rather than planting daisies down the vault runway..... Or maybe it's something she is eating. Or hormones. I'm not really sure....

 

[wallinbl]

With some kids (like mine) there is also the issue of learning/getting comfortable with putting the "pedal to the metal." My daughter has recently been surprising me with how fast she can run. Seems something triggered in her brain to go full throttle rather than planting daisies down the vault runway..... Or maybe it's something she is eating. Or hormones. I'm not really sure....

That's a hard thing to figure out. Getting chased in tag makes a lot of kids run faster. Trying to be the first one to a ball does the same. Getting the kid to find that mental state without the chase/race can be hard. I always run faster if I give the other person a small headstart.

 

[curlymop]

That's a hard thing to figure out. Getting chased in tag makes a lot of kids run faster. Trying to be the first one to a ball does the same. Getting the kid to find that mental state without the chase/race can be hard. I always run faster if I give the other person a small headstart.

Our little L4 boys were having trouble sprinting during the vault, so the coach had them chasing each other down the vault runway. The second kid would take off right after the first, try to catch up, then peel off before the springboard. It's amazing how much faster they run when someone is chasing them.

 

[BlairBob]

^^^ also works well if you have a dog in the gym that will chase on command. As a coach, I've been that "dog." Nevertheless, gymnastics vaulting is not about pure speed like a 100 and it's more like a polevault speed-up trying to hit top/high acceleration at the point of the hurdle.