WAG Geddert charged with human trafficking

[kendo348]

So hypothetically, had this gone to court. What sort of sentence would he be looking at?

If this happened here, it would not constitute a life sentence, not even close. Hence, his suicide seems disproportionate.

IF he were convicted on all counts - which from some comments here it seems may have been improbable? - and if I did the math right, a life sentence plus 369 years. Someone wiser about the law will have to speak to what the realistic hypothetical might have been, but I will say that I read the charges document linked above and felt that with so little mention of the role he also played in Nassar’s abuse, the charges weren’t even sufficient to encapsulate his wrongs. How would this not constitute at least a life sentence??

 

[Aussie_coach]

Life sentences are incredibly rare in my country for anything other than murder. And the “life” sentence fit murder is usually only 20 years or so. Just wondering if he felt he was staring down a barrel or not.

 

[profmom]

So the answer is . . . it's complicated. Here is the actual charging document, which lists the maximum sentence on each count. Link Removed

Had this gone forward, most likely what would have happened is the usual process in the American system. Geddert's lawyer (I am sure he has one) would have been in touch with the prosecutor to discuss the possibility of a plea bargain. Very few defendants in the American system go to trial. Almost all cases are pleaded out -- the defendant pleads guilty to a subset of the crimes charged, or to lesser offenses, and prosecutor and defense attorney work out the sentence. A judge then approves the plea. In Geddert's case, I presume the conversation would have been over whether the sentences would run concurrently or consecutively, and when/whether he might be eligible for parole. Part of the deal would certainly have been an agreement that he not be charged with additional crimes, should evidence come to light, but also in light of the Nassar experience, I have to imagine the AG would have insisted on a hearing offering survivors the opportunity to testify publicly as to the impact of his behavior.

He could, of course, have opted to go to trial. I did a quick search, and it does appear that this use of the trafficking statute was novel in Michigan. A small number of cases have produced opinions, all focused on sex trafficking. If convicted, he could have appealed, arguing that this use of the statute went beyond its purpose. I'd not have liked to be the appellate judge trying to sort that one out. The sexual abuse charges and lying to the police, however, are clear applications of the statute and carry significant sentences as well, so convictions on those counts would certainly have survived review.

Charges are state, not federal, so no RICO concerns, but if it could be shown that he abused a different athlete at an out-of-state met, for instance, it would possibly open up the use of the same novel human trafficking argument under federal law. And if it's a different athlete, it would be a different crime, so no double jeopardy.

{Hopefully someone whose primary expertise is criminal law will chime in -- I emphasize that this is a stretch for me.)

 

[MuggleMom]

I believe I read somewhere that the team contract he had people sign stated if they made it to Elite level that they would pay him a percentage of their endorsements etc. much like an agent would be paid...this gives him financial incentive to drive them to that level at any cost. I thought I read somewhere that as their coach he does get some sort of paid fee or prize money if they are competing and winning at a certain level (dont the kids get money if they make national team and doesnt some of that go to pay training etc)? But I am not 100% sure that these are "facts"

I think they are stating that he pushed them to continue to compete so the parents would keep paying tuition fees. That essentially that forcing them to compete to improve the gyms profile was part of his business model so he was therefore profiting off forcing them to compete. I do not think the trafficking angle is about Nassar (though arguably it could be) I think proving he was sending them to Nassar for the purpose of being abused is much more difficult that proving he lied to the police. He could still claim he didn't know (with certainty) what Nassar was doing but he did lie to the police about being aware there had been complaints about him etc. He could claim all he did was fail to report hearsay and that he didn't know anything for certain. (Just for the record I believe he knew what was going on I am just trying to state it would be difficult to prove he absolutely knew and didn't just suspect or had heard something was going on) I mean short of emails between the two of them that detail and arrangement of sorts or Nassar coming out and saying "oh yeah we talked about it over dinner all the time" proving knowledge here will be very difficult which is why I think they focused on other avenues for their investigation.

I was on a Federal Grand Jury once (just for indictments not to convict etc) and the US legal system is crazy. The hoops you jump through and the amount time it takes to bring a case before a judge just to bring forth charges is NUTS. I studied law some in college and I will say I had no idea just how convoluted our system was until I was on that jury. It was more than a bit disillusioning.

 

[profmom]

The only charge bearing any relation to Nassar is lying to the police. Everything else is solely about Geddert's behavior.

The reason gym owners (and really any sports clubs purporting to conduct "elite" training) should be watching this is that many have clauses in coaches' contracts providing financial incentives if their individual athletes or teams do well (i.e., win state championships, qualify to regionals/nationals, etc.). I don't imagine trafficking is going to work in every state, but a few might jump on board with the theory that abusive coaching in pursuit of such incentives fulfills the elements of trafficking.

(Again, not a criminal law expert, just my seat of the pants read.)

 

[Flippin'A]

Life sentences are incredibly rare in my country for anything other than murder. And the “life” sentence fit murder is usually only 20 years or so. Just wondering if he felt he was staring down a barrel or not.

The US has some of the harshest prison sentences in the world. That being said, I don't think it was a foregone conclusion that he would never have seen the outside of a jail. There are so many different ways this could have gone between now and a potential trial (as others have outlined better than I could.)

Obviously it's impossible to know what was going on inside his head, but I strongly suspect that his choice had more to do with knowing that he was almost certainly facing an experience similar to what Nassar had during the sentencing hearing. Whatever his actual sentence turned out to be, he was publicly disgraced, lost his legacy, and was facing years or decades of trials and imprisonment. This was a man who was constantly shoving himself into the limelight and seemed to eat up the public's attention. I think he just couldn't handle the thought of people knowing who he truly was.

 

[flippin out]

Obviously it's impossible to know what was going on inside his head, but I strongly suspect that his choice had more to do with knowing that he was almost certainly facing an experience similar to what Nassar had during the sentencing hearing. Whatever his actual sentence turned out to be, he was publicly disgraced, lost his legacy, and was facing years or decades of trials and imprisonment. This was a man who was constantly shoving himself into the limelight and seemed to eat up the public's attention. I think he just couldn't handle the thought of people knowing who he truly was.

I agree, I think the main factor in his decision to end his life had a lot to do with the fear of 100s of former gymnasts showing up to air their feelings and confront him at a sentencing hearing......or to testify if it went to trial. For a man driven by his massive ego, that would have been intolerable. He saw how that went for Larry's hearing and was extremely fearful of that, IMO anyway.

 

[meganicka]

I read these documents from beginning to end. I felt physically ill reading about this. But, in the back of my mind, was thinking ‘Where are the parents?!’ There is a 100% chance that the victims were minors and the parents were paying for training. Did the parents think that these types of training methods and injuries were to be expected, par for the course of high level or elite gymnastics and turn a blind eye? Were these girls so scared to talk that they couldn’t even tell their parents what was going on? Maybe a combination of both.
Sounds like there were reports made with USAG at least as early as 2014 that went either without investigation or were ‘investigated’ and swept under the rug.
And, still radio silence from USAG except the 2 sentence statement that stated with sorry and ended with but let’s focus on Winter Cup because these athletes worked hard to get here. Ugh makes me want to boycott paying membership for my kids next year or find another organization to support.
And, unfortunately, I know of some gyms in my area who have coaches/owners who exhibit the same behaviors- underreported head injuries, stepping on shoulders when the kids are in their splits, eating disorders ,etc. I hope this serves as a wake up call for everyone- coaches who may need to rethink their ways, gymnasts for knowing it is NOT okay for adults to treat them like this and they need to tell someone they trust right away and it may not be the parent because they may be just as complicit as the coaches in everything that is going on (hopefully unknowingly), and parents to realize that this is not ‘normal’ ways of coaching gymnasts.

I saw this tweet the other day, and I think it's a really good encapsulation of what happens for a lot of parents in these situations. I'm not excusing it, but I do think it helps make it clearer how things wind up that way. Also, some parents are also abusive and don't have a problem with this, but I don't think that's the vast majority.

 

[MuggleMom]

This is the kind of thing that terrifies me. How much is just humans making mistakes and how much is a pattern. I try to be vigilent but I see how easily it can all happen.

 

[cogymmom2dd]

I saw this tweet the other day, and I think it's a really good encapsulation of what happens for a lot of parents in these situations. I'm not excusing it, but I do think it helps make it clearer how things wind up that way. Also, some parents are also abusive and don't have a problem with this, but I don't think that's the vast majority.

Thanks for sharing this. I too get that sometimes the parents can be just a as groomed and brainwashed as their kids, but dang I don’t know. I feel like broken necks and backs would warrant more investigation as a parent and if a doctor (specialist) told me or my kid that they couldn’t train for X amount of time, I would listen to the expert and not my kid’s coach, especially if the coach is getting kickbacks and profiting off of my kid, I feel like that is where I would draw the line but I have never been in that position nor has my gymnastics experience been like the one described by this lady with the exception of being approached at age 5 to join team because they saw some talent in rec class.

 

[gymgal]

Thanks for sharing this. I too get that sometimes the parents can be just a as groomed and brainwashed as their kids, but dang I don’t know. I feel like broken necks and backs would warrant more investigation as a parent and if a doctor (specialist) told me or my kid that they couldn’t train for X amount of time, I would listen to the expert and not my kid’s coach, especially if the coach is getting kickbacks and profiting off of my kid, I feel like that is where I would draw the line but I have never been in that position nor has my gymnastics experience been like the one described by this lady with the exception of being approached at age 5 to join team because they saw some talent in rec class.

I'm with you as I would never put my child in this position but I could see how it could happen especially when you are in the middle of it and the coach is telling you that they are only conditioning while injured and the coach is threatening the child not to tell the parent that they are in fact training (this has been discussed through the years with various gyms here on CB). But also, coaches can be very convincing. "Bars is fine - a coach will be right there to catch her so she doesn't land on her feet if she falls." She will be fine on beam with a broken wrist. She can do her walks and work on her aerials." Happens all the time and the parent trusts the coach. And a coach like G, with all his success? Do you question it? Not unless there is something glaring. Add to this that gymnastics IS a dangerous sport. Anything can happen. Gymnasts fall all the time and yes, sometimes it is serious. I also question the preciseness of some of the injuries noted - a broken body part. Well, was it full fractures or was it stress fractures? Make a big difference in how much/what a gymnast can train.

 

[MuggleMom]

It all seems black and white to you start thing of exceptions and then the exceptions add up. I agree I would probably still send my kid to gym even with an injury to do what conditioning she could and you are relying on the coach to follow the Dr prescriped protocols and your gymnast to tell you if they are making you do anything you shouldnt. But thats the issue isnt it what if the gymnast is scared to tell you. Same with the injuries. A Scary bar fall with a bad injury can happen if the gymnast didnt tell you he pushed her into the bar where is the red flag? There is so much that depends on the child being clear in their communication and how often does that really happen? How many times have you as a parent had to piece together a story of what happened from your kid because they dont explain things well....and thats on unimportant matters like who made a mess or why the siblings are fighting, it can be even more complicated in these situations.

I'd like to think I am immune to these problems, that I would "see" it and act but I think we all need to think and act as though it could happen to us to try and stay vigilant.

 

[bookworm]

I'm with you as I would never put my child in this position but I could see how it could happen especially when you are in the middle of it and the coach is telling you that they are only conditioning while injured and the coach is threatening the child not to tell the parent that they are in fact training (this has been discussed through the years with various gyms here on CB). But also, coaches can be very convincing. "Bars is fine - a coach will be right there to catch her so she doesn't land on her feet if she falls." She will be fine on beam with a broken wrist. She can do her walks and work on her aerials." Happens all the time and the parent trusts the coach. And a coach like G, with all his success? Do you question it? Not unless there is something glaring. Add to this that gymnastics IS a dangerous sport. Anything can happen. Gymnasts fall all the time and yes, sometimes it is serious. I also question the preciseness of some of the injuries noted - a broken body part. Well, was it full fractures or was it stress fractures? Make a big difference in how much/what a gymnast can train.

This is where the parent has to step up to the plate and defend their child. We were at a gym similarly described by Gymgal where the coach thought he knew more than the doctors and HE would give you a post op "plan" for your kid..... my oldest had a back fracture in September one year and was to be in a hard brace 24/7 , except to shower ...this coach said "well we can have her condition until she's ready to train" ...first week went fine , only conditioning...second week, a parent pulls me aside to tell me that my daughter was doing dance throughs on the beam and then he had her doing bars (with "no dismounts") and her bar routine included a Tkachev . I asked my daughter if this was all true and she said "yes, coach said i'd rested enough and it was time to get working again"...and that's when I told her, you are done with ANY type of practicing for the next 10 1/2 weeks, period . I gave him a chance and he failed .

So I went to the next practice with steam coming out of my ears and I asked to speak to the coach...and he wasn't happy about it but he came over and I said "did you have my daughter practicing on the beam and bars yesterday versus the conditioning only that her doctor agreed to and so did you?" And he stammered a bit and I said "that's a yes or no answer"... to which he said "yes but.." ... I stopped him right there and said " you blew it and she won't be back for 11 weeks... and I'm not paying the tuition for those months either" ...fast forward to 4 months , she had rested , worn her brace 24/7 and upon her MD recheck visit, it had healed and she could return to practice, and she did . She ended up going to regionals and JO Nationals and she won that year ....the 4 months off didn't doom her and she healed, and knock on wood, never had another back issue. There were several back fractures in that gym and she was the only one who stayed out of the gym as directed by her doctor, and she's the only one who didn't have ongoing back pain years down the road. .

So many parents are afraid to stand up to a coach but you have to, especially in these times..

 

[gymgal]

This is where the parent has to step up to the plate and defend their child. We were at a gym similarly described by Gymgal where the coach thought he knew more than the doctors and HE would give you a post op "plan" for your kid..... my oldest had a back fracture in September one year and was to be in a hard brace 24/7 , except to shower ...this coach said "well we can have her condition until she's ready to train" ...first week went fine , only conditioning...second week, a parent pulls me aside to tell me that my daughter was doing dance throughs on the beam and then he had her doing bars (with "no dismounts") and her bar routine included a Tkachev . I asked my daughter if this was all true and she said "yes, coach said i'd rested enough and it was time to get working again"...and that's when I told her, you are done with ANY type of practicing for the next 10 1/2 weeks, period . I gave him a chance and he failed .

So I went to the next practice with steam coming out of my ears and I asked to speak to the coach...and he wasn't happy about it but he came over and I said "did you have my daughter practicing on the beam and bars yesterday versus the conditioning only that her doctor agreed to and so did you?" And he stammered a bit and I said "that's a yes or no answer"... to which he said "yes but.." ... I stopped him right there and said " you blew it and she won't be back for 11 weeks... and I'm not paying the tuition for those months either" ...fast forward to 4 months , she had rested , worn her brace 24/7 and upon her MD recheck visit, it had healed and she could return to practice, and she did . She ended up going to regionals and JO Nationals and she won that year ....the 4 months off didn't doom her and she healed, and knock on wood, never had another back issue. There were several back fractures in that gym and she was the only one who stayed out of the gym as directed by her doctor, and she's the only one who didn't have ongoing back pain years down the road. .

So many parents are afraid to stand up to a coach but you have to, especially in these times..

A Lot of gyms would have kicked the gymnast off team for not showing up to practice and especially not paying tuition, which is yet another reason why parents get so scared not to rock the boat. But there comes a time when you have to stand up for your child and what you know is right.

 

[bookworm]

A Lot of gyms would have kicked the gymnast off team for not showing up to practice and especially not paying tuition, which is yet another reason why parents get so scared not to rock the boat. But there comes a time when you have to stand up for your child and what you know is right.

Well the coach went against doctor's orders that he agreed to follow so I wasn't worried about her getting kicked out...my other one was still there practicing so he would've lost 2 tuitions . I warned him if she had a setback in her healing, he was to blame and that he could look into the mirror and see who caused it. So there was no blowback from him...

My youngest ended up with elbow surgery a couple years later and when I went in to tell him she's having the surgery , because of an overuse injury, he said "so I guess she won't be back in the gym until she's healed and you won't be paying the tuition for those months? " ...so he knew exactly where I stood on injuries. And her doctor was the one who sent a note to the coach that she'd be out because the doctor said "I've heard that he tries to get them to practice when they shouldn't" ...

I wasn't concerned about rocking the boat, and other parents shouldn't either, as it was my job as a parent to advocate for her health and not saying yes just because the coach says so.

 

[gymjunkie]

I read these documents from beginning to end. I felt physically ill reading about this. But, in the back of my mind, was thinking ‘Where are the parents?!’ There is a 100% chance that the victims were minors and the parents were paying for training. Did the parents think that these types of training methods and injuries were to be expected, par for the course of high level or elite gymnastics and turn a blind eye? Were these girls so scared to talk that they couldn’t even tell their parents what was going on? Maybe a combination of both.
Sounds like there were reports made with USAG at least as early as 2014 that went either without investigation or were ‘investigated’ and swept under the rug.
And, still radio silence from USAG except the 2 sentence statement that stated with sorry and ended with but let’s focus on Winter Cup because these athletes worked hard to get here. Ugh makes me want to boycott paying membership for my kids next year or find another organization to support.
And, unfortunately, I know of some gyms in my area who have coaches/owners who exhibit the same behaviors- underreported head injuries, stepping on shoulders when the kids are in their splits, eating disorders ,etc. I hope this serves as a wake up call for everyone- coaches who may need to rethink their ways, gymnasts for knowing it is NOT okay for adults to treat them like this and they need to tell someone they trust right away and it may not be the parent because they may be just as complicit as the coaches in everything that is going on (hopefully unknowingly), and parents to realize that this is not ‘normal’ ways of coaching gymnasts.

Gymnasts don't tell their parents about abuse, because when parents intervene, the gymnast gets treated worse.

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

Gymnasts don't tell their parents about abuse, because when parents intervene, the gymnast gets treated worse.

Correct. Any time a parent complained about the coach, their child would be singled out and ridiculed until they quit (having all the kids sit down and watch them condition alone while being ridiculed about how badly they’re doing it, and everyone needs to see how badly they’re doing it... making them go back to like level 1 routines when they’re winning 1st place on that event because they’re “uncoachable” and doing it terribly apparently).

The kid who complained quits and the other kids learn not to complain because if their parents come and complain - the same thing happens to them. I sat at every practice, and I pulled the coach, the head coach and the owner aside numerous times - she treated my kid like crap but my daughter said “hey this is her personality and has nothing to do with me, I prefer it when she refuses to talk to me” and didn’t want to leave. A year and a half of trying to get through to the owner on what a liability this woman is, and we left. They actually fired her when we were in the process of leaving and parents where furious because how would their kids score high without someone being tough on them?
So they rehired her. AGAIN. Not the first or second time. With multiple pending usag complaints.

Parents are definetly a big part of the problem - the parents who rationalize that it’s not that bad, they only have x number of events with this person, there’s always difficult people in life (that’s what my husband did and I listened to him when I should have gone with my gut), parents who think you need someone tough who makes kids cry because those high scores are worth it and complain more if their kids score below a 9 than if their kid says their coach called them stupid.

 

[gymbeam]

USAG needs to crack down on the practice of nominal transfers of gym ownership between spouses when one is sanctioned.

Yes, yes, yes. My daughters former coach was just arrested 3 weeks ago and he has done the same. Although this article says he is no longer the “administrator” so I’m not sure about actual ownership.

Durham coach, facing criminal charges, suspended from contact by USA Gymnastics

USA Gymnastics on Monday told WRAL News that the owner of a Durham gymnastics center facing sex charges has been suspended from contact with USA Gymnastics-affiliated athletes and events while his criminal case plays out.

www.google.com

 

[gymbeam]

Gymnasts don't tell their parents about abuse, because when parents intervene, the gymnast gets treated worse.

Yep. This and so many other reasons, too.

 

[cogymmom2dd]

Gymnasts don't tell their parents about abuse, because when parents intervene, the gymnast gets treated worse.

It’s kind of hard to hide a broken neck and injuries of the same severity from parents... if my kid went to practice a normal kid and left with a broken neck, I would be questioning things. I would be questioning even more if I found out that she continued to practice with said injury. At our gym, if our kids get the slightest bit hurt, we get a call right away, along with a incident report sheet. I got one after my kid and her friend bumped heads while goofing around at summer team camp. No one was hurt, but I still got a call and it got reported. If they told me she ‘fell’, I would continue to question them and the reason why they allowed her to fall.
Now, I maybe get why these girls were not telling their parents about the verbal abuse or maybe even the physical abuse such as spitting in their faces and stomping on feet in fear of retaliation, but those major, potentially life altering injuries would not be blown off by me—— but I have worked in emergency medicine for 20 years and know that broken necks typically just don’t ‘happen’ from a fall off of the bars without some other force behind the fall. I also would be helluva pissed if I found out my kid was forced to finish practice with said injuries without being properly immobilized. I may be a bit biased because I am looking at things through the lens of someone with a medical background and also from someone who is at a gym where this culture doesn’t exist. That’s where the ‘where are the parents’ comes into play from my perspective. It’s disgusting that they trusted a gym owner/coach over everyone else. I get that there may have been titles/medals/scholarships/endorsements on the line, but at what cost? The parents need to be the advocate always even at the cost of all of the above each mentioned.