Women Geddert charged with human trafficking

[gymgal]

but I have worked in emergency medicine for 20 years and know that broken necks typically just don’t ‘happen’ from a fall off of the bars without some other force behind the fall. I also would be helluva pissed if I found out my kid was forced to finish practice with said injuries without being properly immobilized. I may be a bit biased because I am looking at things through the lens of someone with a medical background and also from someone who is at a gym where this culture doesn’t exist. That’s where the ‘where are the parents’ comes into play from my perspective. It’s disgusting that they trusted a gym owner/coach over everyone else. I get that there may have been titles/medals/scholarships/endorsements on the line, but at what cost? The parents need to be the advocate always even at the cost of all of the above each mentioned.

The "broken" back and neck usage in the documents is what let me to believe we were likely dealing with stress fractures. These would be much more likely to have the girls get back on the equipment. Gymnasts train and compete all the time with hairline/stress fractures, knowing something is wrong but not the severity of it. As for neck/back fractures just from falling from bars (or onto a bar)? It does happen and depending on the level and the gym, if the gymnasts rests a little and feels ok, they are likely to get right back to training.

 

[cogymmom2dd]

The "broken" back and neck usage in the documents is what let me to believe we were likely dealing with stress fractures. These would be much more likely to have the girls get back on the equipment. Gymnasts train and compete all the time with hairline/stress fractures, knowing something is wrong but not the severity of it. As for neck/back fractures just from falling from bars (or onto a bar)? It does happen and depending on the level and the gym, if the gymnasts rests a little and feels ok, they are likely to get right back to training.

Ok, so if your kid went into the gym a normal, healthy kid and after practice said man, my neck really hurts, I fell into and/or off of the bar today. (In Geddert’s case, it was pushed off, failed to spot purposefully), you wouldn’t question why they let your kid continue to practice with a head and neck injury? And, why you are hearing about it from your kid and not the coach? Those would be my first questions. Also, I get that kids might blow off pain not knowing that there are stress fractures, etc. but if there are known injuries, treatment plan should be coming from a medical specialist- at that, it should be from a 3rd party medical specialist that isn’t contracted with the gym— not the owner/ head coach.

 

[gymgal]

Ok, so if your kid went into the gym a normal, healthy kid and after practice said man, my neck really hurts, I fell into and/or off of the bar today. (In Geddert’s case, it was pushed off, failed to spot purposefully), you wouldn’t question why they let your kid continue to practice with a head and neck injury? And, why you are hearing about it from your kid and not the coach? Those would be my first questions. Also, I get that kids might blow off pain not knowing that there are stress fractures, etc. but if there are known injuries, treatment plan should be coming from a medical specialist- at that, it should be from a 3rd party medical specialist that isn’t contracted with the gym— not the owner/ head coach.

I don't disagree with you on what SHOULD happen. Just explaining on how it can happen. Yes, I have seen parents push off pretty serious injuries for a few days/weeks, thinking it's not that bad and often on the begging of their gymnasts not to seek medical help because they know it will mean a few weeks out of training. And realistically almost always, it ends up being "not that bad" a simple sprain - rest it for a couple of weeks and ease back into training as you feel less pain. When you hear that several time, you naturally think it yourself. Probably not a big deal. Why waste the time/money on the appt when I know what they will say. This isn't always the coach's doing. It is often coming from the gymnasts knowing what a couple weeks of ordered rest will do to their consistency in the training. As mine got older, I am sure that she hid a few injuries or how much she was hurting just so she would not have to stop/rest. It is the nature of a gymnast and the sport. Thankfully, she had coaches who would adjust training based on how the girls were feeling.

 

[bookworm]

and the sad part in all this, if you look at the "Tribute Wall" on the obit page , there are still people, in 2021, lauding Geddert's "techniques" and calling him a master and that "he'll be missed ... he knew the balance between pushing and coaching"... I feel sad for the kids who have parents like this that excuse such blatant abuse

 

[HoldThePhone]

Abusers are very good manipulators. If everyone experienced the abuse, the abuser wouldn't still be in power. It makes the abused feel crazy, and like they can't say anything, or that they're weak if they do, etc. Yes parents should have some responsibility, but things like not being able to watch practices and smooth talking abusers, year long contracts, "great relationships" between an abuser and other parents are all reasons things can become so easily muddled. It's very sad, and this sport is in need overall of a major culture change.

 

[profmom]

And upper-level gymnastics is very tough on the body. Over time, a lot of gymnasts who succeed learn what kind of pain they can work through and what kind of pain requires medical intervention or just time off. Incentives will favor those who draw that line perfectly and thus maximize effective training, but it is not an easy line to draw. And working through pain requires compensation that can cause additional injuries.

We have been through many, many episodes of "well, I believe that it hurts, but the Xrays and MRI do not show any emergent injuries, so I'm giving you a yellow light to proceed with caution." We spent more than 2 years figuring out and resolving my daughter's back pain. If she'd been a top athlete at a gym that pushes athletes hard, that likely would have ended in serious injury. The hunt for monsters obscures the risks that are deeply woven into the dynamics and incentives of the sport itself.

 

[B&M's mom]

But culture change doesn't come just from USAG or any other organization. Parents have to be willing to challenge the coaches. I understand how hard it is. My DD was in an elite program at her gym so we were very invested. At the state meet one year, she finished her bar routine and started crying. Not usual behavior for her. She was also holding one arm strangely. None of the coaches said a word to her. I was there and knew something was off but couldn't do anything. She then competed the rest of the meet, crying (or trying not to). It was clear that something was wrong. After the meet, I had to help her take off her leo as she couldn't bend the arm. We ended up in the emergency room. It turned out that she had fractured the radial head of her elbow. After getting the diagnosis, I called the head coach/owner. To say I was upset was an understatement. He tried to justify their failure to check on her after bars as thinking she was frustrated. I made it very clear that was unacceptable and that someone should have asked her what was wrong. Note, when we transferred to the gym, I was told by other parents that the coach didn't take parental "interference" well. He admitted that they should have checked on her and promised to talk to the other coaches and be better in the future. She stayed at the gym and the coaches were much better about making sure that the girls were ok when things looked off. Not to say that they were perfect but I never saw another girl be ignored when clearly something was wrong.

Making that call was hard. My DD begged me not to as she didn't want to get kicked out of the gym. But I didn't speak up who would? I wanted the coaches and my daughter to understand that I had her interests at heart Filing a complaint with USAG and waiting for them to investigate would have taken months if not years and realistically should not have been the first step. The call could have gone badly and we may have been looking for a new gym but really if your child is hurting and they aren't willing to do anything about it, do you want your child there?

 

[Deleted member 26368]

Making that call was hard. My DD begged me not to as she didn't want to get kicked out of the gym. But I didn't speak up who would?

This is the heartbreaking part - your DD was worried that your (very valid!) concerns would lead to retribution. You are 100% correct that parents - in ALL youth sports, not just gymnastics - have to know when to raise issues with the coaches, and not be afraid of the "experts". Bottom line, we know our kids better than another adult. However, this is probably one of the hardest things for many parents to do, especially those of us who lean away from "confrontation".

 

[profmom]

And honestly, given the level of crazy I have seen from parents, I can completely understand why many coaches bristle at heavy parental involvement. The toxic dynamics can make it very difficult for well meaning coaches and parents to develop the kind of positive relationship that will benefit everyone. If CGD spends 20 minutes bending the coach's ear about his Deep Thoughts about his athlete's training, conditioning, skill progression, and trajectory, it's hard for me to stand by and watch and wait for my turn to say, "hey, my kid has a big test coming up this week and is extra stressed out about it, so can they come in Thursday instead of Wednesday?" and it's hard for the coach to maintain the patience to wait to engage with me.

 

[MuggleMom]

Coaches are people too and sometimes they misread what motivates your child. I had a coach tell my kid she needed to do her BHS on beam or go home (she was capable but had just learned it and was still scared) my kid left in tears and called me to pick her up. Needless to say I was PISSED! I tried to get the coaches attention while she was in the gym to have a chat but she was in practice still. So I went home and sent her a text about it. I wasnt rude but I told her it was NOT OKAY to do that to my kid. She sent me a heartfelt appology and said she honestly thought she would just get up and do the BHS cause she is able to. I had to explain my kid is very sensitive (you cant tell in gym she just does what she needs to then goes home and is upset about things so they had no idea) They have a better understanding now of what motivates her and what shuts her down and that has helped a TON with her training. The first part of the story sounds abusive but when you realize its a human who tried something and failed its not that simple. But you also have coaches that can manipulate that kind of situation to make sound like it was an honest mistake when it wasn't.

 

[gymgal]

Coaches are people too and sometimes they misread what motivates your child. I had a coach tell my kid she needed to do her BHS on beam or go home (she was capable but had just learned it and was still scared) my kid left in tears and called me to pick her up. Needless to say I was PISSED! I tried to get the coaches attention while she was in the gym to have a chat but she was in practice still. So I went home and sent her a text about it. I wasnt rude but I told her it was NOT OKAY to do that to my kid. She sent me a heartfelt appology and said she honestly thought she would just get up and do the BHS cause she is able to. I had to explain my kid is very sensitive (you cant tell in gym she just does what she needs to then goes home and is upset about things so they had no idea) They have a better understanding now of what motivates her and what shuts her down and that has helped a TON with her training. The first part of the story sounds abusive but when you realize its a human who tried something and failed its not that simple. But you also have coaches that can manipulate that kind of situation to make sound like it was an honest mistake when it wasn't.

Not that I think this was what was going on with Geddert or any of the other recent coaches in the news but I do agree that sometimes coaches misread what will motivate an athlete and if it worked for a few others, they think it will work for others too so they get into a pattern. I do think the "do it or else" tactic does work for some athletes - they just need that push - but just because it works doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Consequences are necessary but they should be natural ones. If you don't do your school work, you fail the class; if you procrastinate doing your chores, there's not more time for video games. The consequence of not training a skill or being able to perform it consistently should not be to get sent home - it is that the gymnast will not be ready to compete at the next level. Not specifically relaying this to Mugglemom. Just expanding on the experience discussed. My dd was very similar. Those "do or else" tactics did not work for her. The coaches quickly learned she would go for the skills on her own time/terms and no coaxing, bribing, punishing would change that.

 

[mommyof1]

Coaches are people too and sometimes they misread what motivates your child. I had a coach tell my kid she needed to do her BHS on beam or go home (she was capable but had just learned it and was still scared) my kid left in tears and called me to pick her up. Needless to say I was PISSED! I tried to get the coaches attention while she was in the gym to have a chat but she was in practice still. So I went home and sent her a text about it. I wasnt rude but I told her it was NOT OKAY to do that to my kid. She sent me a heartfelt appology and said she honestly thought she would just get up and do the BHS cause she is able to. I had to explain my kid is very sensitive (you cant tell in gym she just does what she needs to then goes home and is upset about things so they had no idea) They have a better understanding now of what motivates her and what shuts her down and that has helped a TON with her training. The first part of the story sounds abusive but when you realize its a human who tried something and failed its not that simple. But you also have coaches that can manipulate that kind of situation to make sound like it was an honest mistake when it wasn't.

Not to get too far afield, but what I really dislike about this approach is that it assumes the problem is lack of motivation. It invariably backfires with my daughter because her problem is often the opposite: she puts so much pressure on herself that she paralyzes herself. I am willing to bet that many other gymnasts are the same.

 

[Gymsanity]

For the millionth time, if you don't like it leave. I don't want that to come across mean or snarky, just real. I've heard and read hundreds of stories like these and just wonder why do kids and parents keep coming back?? When I say 'leave' I mean the gym, but if that doesn't work leave the sport. Your children are incredibly talented and will excel in any other sport they undertake, so go and be happy. Childhood and life are both too short to put up with some jerk coach.
As for John, anyone that has spent more than five minutes with him quickly realizes that he is rather 'intense' to put it nicely and everyone knows that. Sadly he is far from being the last one. The truth of the matter is that there are as many bad doctors, lawyers, garbage collectors, and gym coaches as good ones. That's life. So either find a good one or do something else, but whatever you do don't tolerate anything less than the best for your children.

 

[gymjunkie]

and the sad part in all this, if you look at the "Tribute Wall" on the obit page , there are still people, in 2021, lauding Geddert's "techniques" and calling him a master and that "he'll be missed ... he knew the balance between pushing and coaching"... I feel sad for the kids who have parents like this that excuse such blatant abuse

Same thing recently went on/going on with Dan Witenstein/Arizona Sunrays. He's not dead, but the parents of his former gym have publicly stated that he is a victim and it's so unfair "what happened to him" after he was placed on the permanently ineligible list for sexual misconduct with a minor. Interestingly enough, one of the first people who offered public sympathy to the Witensteins on social media was Kathryn Geddert. Like the Twistars situation, ownership of Arizona Sunrays was transferred to his wife, who has no background in gymnastics.

 

[gymjunkie]

It’s kind of hard to hide a broken neck and injuries of the same severity from parents... if my kid went to practice a normal kid and left with a broken neck, I would be questioning things. I would be questioning even more if I found out that she continued to practice with said injury. At our gym, if our kids get the slightest bit hurt, we get a call right away, along with a incident report sheet. I got one after my kid and her friend bumped heads while goofing around at summer team camp. No one was hurt, but I still got a call and it got reported. If they told me she ‘fell’, I would continue to question them and the reason why they allowed her to fall.
Now, I maybe get why these girls were not telling their parents about the verbal abuse or maybe even the physical abuse such as spitting in their faces and stomping on feet in fear of retaliation, but those major, potentially life altering injuries would not be blown off by me—— but I have worked in emergency medicine for 20 years and know that broken necks typically just don’t ‘happen’ from a fall off of the bars without some other force behind the fall. I also would be helluva pissed if I found out my kid was forced to finish practice with said injuries without being properly immobilized. I may be a bit biased because I am looking at things through the lens of someone with a medical background and also from someone who is at a gym where this culture doesn’t exist. That’s where the ‘where are the parents’ comes into play from my perspective. It’s disgusting that they trusted a gym owner/coach over everyone else. I get that there may have been titles/medals/scholarships/endorsements on the line, but at what cost? The parents need to be the advocate always even at the cost of all of the above each mentioned.

A couple of points:

The conditioning "not to tell" hardly starts with a broken neck. That might be the end result of years of not telling.

Many kids who are abused by gymnastics coaches (physically, emotionally, sexually) never have a severe injury like a broken neck.

Many gymnasts who are NOT in an abusive program suffer severe injuries due to the nature of the sport or being injury prone due to physical variations and limitations (and sometimes just luck).

 

[gymjunkie]

Like the Twistars situation, ownership of Arizona Sunrays was transferred to his wife, who has no background in gymnastics.

The part that was like the Gedderts was that ownership was transferred, not the part about having no background in gymnastics. That part only refers to the Witensteins.

 

[gymjunkie]

For the millionth time, if you don't like it leave. I don't want that to come across mean or snarky, just real. I've heard and read hundreds of stories like these and just wonder why do kids and parents keep coming back?? When I say 'leave' I mean the gym, but if that doesn't work leave the sport. Your children are incredibly talented and will excel in any other sport they undertake, so go and be happy. Childhood and life are both too short to put up with some jerk coach.
As for John, anyone that has spent more than five minutes with him quickly realizes that he is rather 'intense' to put it nicely and everyone knows that. Sadly he is far from being the last one. The truth of the matter is that there are as many bad doctors, lawyers, garbage collectors, and gym coaches as good ones. That's life. So either find a good one or do something else, but whatever you do don't tolerate anything less than the best for your children.

It sounds logical, but it's just not the same as finding a new dentist.

When you take your kid out of a team program you are most likely taking them from their best friends and some coaches they love (often against their will). To leave a bad coach, they will have to adjust to new coaches (with no guarantee they are not bad coaches) and make all new friends. While a parent would not hesitate to do this if they for sure knew how bad the program truly was (or if they had a crystal ball to know what lay ahead), that is not often the case. Kids don't tell everything and parents stop watching practice at some point. Also, some of the worst coaches are pathological narcissists who are highly skilled at manipulation and deception.

 

[CuriousCate]

Also, some of the worst coaches are pathological narcissists who are highly skilled at manipulation and deception.

This is the word that keeps running through my head when I think of Geddert and those cut from the same cloth. And it is really terrifying how much a true narcissist can wreak havoc on your confidence and self-worth.

 

[gymjunkie]

This is the word that keeps running through my head when I think of Geddert and those cut from the same cloth. And it is really terrifying how much a true narcissist can wreak havoc on your confidence and self-worth.

And some of the worst ones are not ones to yell and scream like Geddert. They will abuse a child with a smile on their face and a soft gentle voice.

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

And some of the worst ones are not ones to yell and scream like Geddert. They will abuse a child with a smile on their face and a soft gentle voice.

As our old head coach would say “you can leave, but here you know what you get, how do you know it won’t be worst somewhere else?”