Off Topic "Gifted" Gymnasts

[CoachGoofy]

What on earth is a twice exceptional child?

A kid who will grow up to hear "you understand quantum physics. Why can't you cook anything more complicated than macaroni and cheese?"
/tongue in cheek

I know I was tested when I was quite small, but I was showing pretty obvious weaknesses and pretty obvious strengths at a young age. But routine testing isn't really a Thing AFAIK--just if a kid is struggling or selected for possible GT programs.

 

[gymgal]

Sorry my first post was so vague, I just have a hard time wording things sometimes!

These are all great responses. Alot is what I expected to hear.

Was asking because my daughter just did a series of academic 'tests' that was recommended for her and we are pretty sure she is 'gifted', but I think of it more like a personality type really. She is very serious with her gymnastics so far, like she is with everything else. Of course, she still has alot of fun!

this sheds more light on your question -

Yes, I would agree that kids who are gifted tend to be more intense in all aspects of their life. Even my youngest who has ADHD type personality is still very intense when he is focused. My dd has always taken gymnastics very seriously. She has fun but she is there to work. She will talk with her friends but if they are goofing around, not paying attention to where they are in line, she will step ahead and take her turn. She stays late to work on her skill "just one more time" She hates showing up "on time" she has to be there early. Again - she is not the best in her group but she does well in gymnastics.

 

[gymgal]

A kid who will grow up to hear "you understand quantum physics. Why can't you cook anything more complicated than macaroni and cheese?"
/tongue in cheek

LOL so true!

 

[bogwoppit]

A kid who will grow up to hear "you understand quantum physics. Why can't you cook anything more complicated than macaroni and cheese?"

Hmm well that would describe my son, who everyone called "the rocket scientist", but keeping to schedules, being organised or finishing up on things is not his forte. Never tested or labelled, he seemed to do okay in school, though was bored crapless 90% of the time. But based on the industry he works in, video games, those characteristics would be common. 50% of the people he works with, and are very successful, flunked out of college. An inside joke is that gamers all have ADD.

I do wonder about all this testing though, not really sure if it is a good thing. As to kids in the gym, as long as they do not have a medical diagnosis I think any label is irrelevant. Being gifted is not a medical diagnosis, but it might make parents be overly focussed on their child's needs.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Kiwi]

Hmm well that would describe my son, who everyone called "the rocket scientist", but keeping to schedules, being organised or finishing up on things is not his forte. Never tested or labelled, he seemed to do okay in school, though was bored crapless 90% of the time. But based on the industry he works in, video games, those characteristics would be common.

LOL, this sounds like my older DD (the non-gymnast), she is like a walking dictionary and encyclopedia, but can't organise herself at all. She is ten and acts like a four year old a lot of the time! And guess what, she loves video games and says would like to be a games designer when she grows up.

 

[mumoftwogymnasts]

Was asking because my daughter just did a series of academic 'tests' that was recommended for her and we are pretty sure she is 'gifted', but I think of it more like a personality type really. She is very serious with her gymnastics so far, like she is with everything else. Of course, she still has alot of fun!

DD was "tested" at 4 years old as a part of a still continuing follow up to skull/brain surgery she had as an infant. My first thought was "how the heck do you test a 4 year old?" She was showing no signs of being anywhere near be ready to read, could just recognise the letters of the alphabet and could write her name and maybe a few other words. To be honest we were crossing our fingers and hoping she "passed". Her IQ results as a four year old put her in the top 95-97 percentile, she is considered either "extremely bright" or "mildly gifted" depending on which of several different scoring systems are used.

I totally agree that there is a personality type that goes hand in hand with this. She is used to almost everything she attempts academically being very easy to her. She is often bored at school. It is a struggle to keep her engaged in the normal classroom tasks. If she is interested and motivated she can produce well researched, articulate, beautifully presented projects. If she isn't interested or she considers the task too easy she can hand in sloppy, messy, half finished work.

She is extremely reluctant to attempt any skill or task that she is not confident that she can immediately master. She definitely has a fear of failure, is a perfectionist and can be her own worst enemy.

I wouldn't really consider her the most naturally talented gymnast on her team. She had to work hard on flexibility and has to work hard to achieve skills. Gym has been a huge learning curve for her, for the first time in her life something didn't come easily to her. I don't think being "gifted" has helped with her gymnastics, I think gymnastics has helped her with learning the value of a work ethic and perserverance.

 

[gymnut1]

Slightly "gifted" kids might arrive at this realization around 10-12yrs but kids with upper levels of intelligence (the top 5%) arrive at this realization much earlier - often by age 5-6. My three are at this level and all have shown this awareness by 5yr. Even my twice exceptional child showed it, though he still doesn't act upon it at 8yr due to impulse issues. And it's not an case of parents teaching their children. these kids intuitively figure out the world on their own, just as older kids do - just at much younger ages.

One other thought - while my dd arrived at the fear realization earlier, she was also able to rationalize at much earlier ages - "my coach is here to help me over this fear - they are not going to let me get hurt when they are spotting me." Now unfortunately, that doesn't always translate to acting on that trust

And I just have to point out there are many many 'average' kids who are just plain timid and have fear! Nothing to do with anything mentioned above. LOL

 

[monkeysmom]

My daughter is in the gifted cluster at school. From what I can see in the 8 or 10 students in her school group, there is zero correlation between being a gifted learner and an outstanding athlete. I suppose the only correlation I see is that most of them are involved in activities outside of school, but I think most kids are.

One common trait of many gifted learners is that they are highly self-critical. As a parent I try to keep this in mind, since I want her to enjoy and relish life's experiences, not beat herself up when she's not perfect. My daughter has her first "real" meet coming up in December (prep op), and was commenting about how awful it will be if she doesn't do well. I asked her to look at the meet as a celebration of all the team's hard work, however it comes out. The only requirements is that she goes out there and does her best. She liked that twist on it, the girl loves a party![TABLE="align: center"]
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[Faith]

There's too many variables to say.

You could look at it as children likely to be involved in a sport, like gymnastics, are more likely to be from well off families. Those families are more likely to be higher earners, so are more likely to be clever/educated to degree level plus. Which means they are more likely to be teaching, or helping their children with school work.

Again, we're back to what is talented or gifted, and what is learning, or hours worked. Is the 5 year old talented because she's naturally gifted, or because she's trained 12 hours a week from her 3rd birthday.

My DD is good at sport, but it's something we've encouraged. Even as a toddler it's been trips to the park on a bike rather than watching a DVD. She's also far ahead of her peers in science, but I'm a scientist. I don't teach at home, but if she asks me a particular question she'll get a degree/PhD level answer . So is her level of knowledge because she's gifted, as you might think if you didn't know her background, or because she has a ready source of information to explain it at home.

I just think there are many types of normal, and some are at one end of a spectra, others at the other. They'll develop at their own pace.

 

[jen1957]

I think I agree with you Monkeysmom. DD's best friend is gifted, but really struggles with athletics. Her mom has told me that her daughter is really stressing about having to do the President's Physical Fitness test this year and has had to explain to her that just because she is gifted it doesn't mean that she is good at everything. Personally, I think that some kids are naturally athletically inclined and some are not. My husband was, my daughter seems to be, but I was not.

I'm guessing that there are certain aspects of being gifted that may carryover to gymnastics, just as there are certain aspects to being a gymnast that carryover to academics.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

There's too many variables to say.

You could look at it as children likely to be involved in a sport, like gymnastics, are more likely to be from well off families. Those families are more likely to be higher earners, so are more likely to be clever/educated to degree level plus. Which means they are more likely to be teaching, or helping their children with school work.

Again, we're back to what is talented or gifted, and what is learning, or hours worked. Is the 5 year old talented because she's naturally gifted, or because she's trained 12 hours a week from her 3rd birthday.

My DD is good at sport, but it's something we've encouraged. Even as a toddler it's been trips to the park on a bike rather than watching a DVD. She's also far ahead of her peers in science, but I'm a scientist. I don't teach at home, but if she asks me a particular question she'll get a degree/PhD level answer . So is her level of knowledge because she's gifted, as you might think if you didn't know her background, or because she has a ready source of information to explain it at home.

I just think there are many types of normal, and some are at one end of a spectra, others at the other. They'll develop at their own pace.

Scary Faith - are we separated at birth ! lol

I too did science, my dad was a reasearch chemist, and my children are given full answers to questions - plus we watch stuff like University Challange on the telly !

I agree with you that Gymnastics does seem to be a rather "middle class" sport for want of a better word, which would mean participants tend to be form a more educated family background.

'margo

 

[monkeysmom]

Here is some parent information we got regarding the gifted learner program, this helped me understand it a little more. My daughter's school focuses on differentiated learning for all levels of learners, so that all students have the best possible opportunity to learn and be challenged on a daily basis.

"High-ability and gifted students learn at an accelerated pace and master new content with little or no need for repetition. Because the average student needs 8 to 15 repetitions to master concepts, differentiation supports the range of learners in the classroom."

This description was given regarding the continuum from bright learner to gifted learner:

Bright Child:
Learns with ease
Easily learns the answers
Grasps the meaning
Is in the top group
Is pleased with own learning

Gifted Learner:
Already knows
Learns the answer and asks more questions
Goes beyond the group
Draws inferences
Is highly self critical

 

[gymnut1]

Now that is an interesting list. You can see where the differences can lie.

 

[gymgal]

Again, we're back to what is talented or gifted, and what is learning, or hours worked. Is the 5 year old talented because she's naturally gifted, or because she's trained 12 hours a week from her 3rd birthday......She's also far ahead of her peers in science, but I'm a scientist. I don't teach at home, but if she asks me a particular question she'll get a degree/PhD level answer .

Well, this is why schools don't like to test young students - "trained" young ones will look gifted on testing because they know more than expected at a certain age but this only lasts through the early elementary grades.

However, there is a distinct difference between bright and gifted (as another poster listed the qualities). "gifted" kids learn very differently than average kids - not just faster. They understand concepts at a much deeper level. And the *more* gifted a child is, the bigger the difference. A mildly gifted child learns very differently from a profoundly gifted child.

In the example above with the science question: an "trained" child will only understand the superficial layers of the answer and will be satisfied. She may be able to spit it back out if she is asked whether she understands it. But a gifted child will continued to ask more in depth questions about the subject (either aloud or through self examination) and when asked if she understands, she will be able to analyze the information obtained and re synthesize it in her own words.

 

[thefellowsmom]

Background: The Fellows just started the highly capable program in our district. They screen every first grader and those that pass the screening (a couple hundred it seemed) complete two days of extensive testing. They not only test academics, but reasoning and analytic skills as well. It is pretty apparent that they get beyond that "trained" and/or early reader child as I know many of these kids that didn't even make it past the screening process. There were also many kids I thought for sure would make it that didn't. The program is segregated, but within a mainstream school and the kid must test above the 96th percentile on a combination of tests (this or that AND this or that AND this or that etc).

We didn't choose to put her in the program because she is so academically advanced or needed more work. We chose to do this because she will have access to teachers who understand her as a learner and will provide her with the tools she needs to overcome her weaknesses as well as excel as a student.

I do feel that gymnastics helped her transition to this program a lot. She had to to go a new school and the consistency of being at the gym was very settling for her. Also, she has never even had to think about school work, it just came to her. But gymnastics is all about failing and getting up and trying again. It is hard and you have to really work at it. Her new program is quite challenging for her and I really feel that her gymnastics foundation has really helped her to accept these challenges and not give up when things seem out of reach.

Although I have been told that my daughter has a great body, amazing feet (I would love it if somebody would explain to me what that means , and the potential to go far in this sport, I think her "giftedness" (god, I hate that word) has slowed her down a bit. She has a great passion for the sport, works very hard and always wants more, but she is hardly flying through the levels like some kids.

She has always understood the fact that she could get very hurt doing this, from the very beginning. This hasn't created fear, so to speak, but I think it contributes to how deliberate she is about things. She's always been very cautious, one of the reasons we started little gym classes when she was 15 months old.

She also refuses to "cheat" on her form. When the coach says that it should be done with her toes pointed and legs straight, she tries to do it that way every time. They have been working on their kips and she was frustrated that she hadn't quite made it yet. She was upset because some of the other girls were "cheating" to get their kips. I asked her what she meant by that and she says they bend their arms and push themselves up and that isn't how it is supposed to be done. This is a tough one to address. I just always tell her just to go in there and do her best every day and listen to her coach and she will get it when she is ready and not to worry about what the other girls are doing.

Luckily, her coaches seem to know her well and see her individual needs and have adjusted her program accordingly. They are holding her back a bit and letting her develop at her own pace while she is young so that she builds confidence and can really take off when she is ready. I feel very lucky that she has coaches that understand her as an individual and don't see her as someone difficult to work with, but someone who just needs a different approach.

She seems much more settled now that she is officially in the team environment and things are more structured and serious. She would get very frustrated with the girls that were goofing off and distracting. They have recently placed her in a group with older girls (most are 9) and she is thriving there.

Anyway, my overall opinion on this is that natural academic ability and natural gymnastics ability really have little, if nothing to do with each other. I do believe that the personality traits caused by being gifted or any other reason have a great influence on how far you can go in this sport, whether naturally talented or not. Passion, dedication and focused hard work can take you very far, but being too cautious, too critical or too rigid can hold you back just as easily.

My other child is a free spirit with no fear. I can see how certain traits he has could work the same way. He just goes for things and puts his heart into it and that can take you far, but untamed energy and distraction can hold you back.

Every kid is an individual. I think the best we can do is try to provide the best possible environment for every child to succeed.

 

[SkiBumGymMom]

I run what essentially is the special education program for our school district. And "Gifted and Talented" is indeed under the umbrella of special education, something some parents are unaware of. I am highly opposed, like bog, to any superfluous testing of children. When I started as a special education teacher back in '95, there was very little talk of gifted children or any other jargon mentioned here. It grew through the decade but in the past five or so years I would say it has exploded. There is a group of mostly upper middle class mothers, that have been pressing the school principals for more gifted testing, which in turn, has come to us. Each child learns differently. If we wanted to test them all multiple times in 1st grade and put them into groups, we'd have 30 different groups in a 30 child classroom.

I agree we really should try to teach each child to their specific needs, but keep in mind, there's only one teacher in a classroom. Once we start pulling out the "gifted" kids, they fight the special education kids for resources (a sad fact, at least in the districts in Colorado) and it kind of continues the trend. I really do believe there are highly intelligent children who benefit from the GTesque programs.

My nephew is one of those kids, he was middle school level books alone in kindergarten, was in college math classes in high school and after getting a undergrad in computer science and biochem, he went to a joint PhD/MD program at USC and CalTech in medicine and some sort of biochemistry. He's doing his medical residency at Johns Hopkins right now. My sister-in-law really pushed him and her other two children into these GT programs (I love my other niece and nephew but they're less GT and more star jock and cheer diva in the most stereotypical form). My nephew benefited from it academically but I did watch him struggle socially for many years. It might me hard to use him as a case study since he graduated from Columbine in 2001 and was there during the shootings. But even before then he had many problems fitting in at school.

School classrooms are about more than just learning facts and figures. They're about teaching children to navigate a new world, one outside their home. To interact with children who are different, learn things mom might not teach them, monitor their own playtime at recess, and also learn to go through things they might not like. Some kids wish they were in gym all day and are excellent at it... should they be pulled into a special gifted athletes program at age 7 and just do gym? I see it all the time with kids who went to Montessori schools for early elementary and are in 4th and 5th grade classrooms, excelling in reading but lacking in math because "we wanted to read and math is dumb so we read." I know not all Montessori schools are like this, many are well rounded and excellent, unfortunately not the one that's in our area.

I have a hard enough time applying special needs labels to young children for their IEPs even though it's for their best interest. I know down the line we'll all be labeled in some way and I don't live in a fantasy land where children are immune to this. I just don't believe in extraneous labels. Kids are subjected to FAR too many standardized tests these days, to the point school curriculum in my state teaches only to the test and many districts have gotten rid of social studies and other subjects not covered by CSAPs, tests that determine all district funding. I've seen so many children break down in tears or have severe panic attacks or stress outbreaks (like hair pulling or scratching) because they're afraid they won't do well on these tests, and these aren't just my special needs children. I don't think children need more tests.

We should try to help every child the best we can. But if a teacher sees a student who is really excelling at reading, I don't see why that teacher shouldn't just give that child harder reading material. Same with students who excel at math. That way they are able to be challenged more where they need to be while remaining in a regular classroom where they can learn the other things taught like social skills and overcoming dislikes, differences and challenges. It also avoids the over-politicized nature of GT testing that occurs, especially in affluent suburban districts, where parents push their kids into testing as if its some sort of status symbol. I truly believe all the children mentioned in this post are indeed very intelligent, pleases don't think I'm saying you're the parents who do this, I don't think you are. But it comes down to, if every child is suddenly "gifted", what the point? Wouldn't that make gifted average? Some kids are going to do poorly in some skill areas, some will exceed. Grade inflation is rampant these days and it's not just universities forced to use grade curves to combat this. And having an academically average child is OK! As long as they're loved, given proper attention at home and in school, try hard at everything they do, find something they love and ARE HAPPY it's okay!

 

[DND]

I think the answer is simple; every one is gifted; we all just have different gifts!

 

[gymgal]

I run what essentially is the special education program for our school district. And "Gifted and Talented" is indeed under the umbrella of special education, something some parents are unaware of.

You make some excellent points. Many states place children in the GT category under the special needs umbrella. I wish more states would follow their lead because this is where they belong. These kiddos (top 5%) are at the outer edges of the curve and need the special attention provided by the special needs umbrella. Frankly, most kids at the 90% and lower should be able to be handled in a traditional classroom with slightly more challenging work. Unfortunately, the nature of mixed grouping is that the teacher needs to target the middle 75%. As a result, the bottom and top 25% are consistently left out (bottom struggles and the top gets so bored they tune out). That's one reason why the GT programs have become so popular with parents. It's the only way to challenge the higher level children.

Interesting note about your nephew not fitting in... but you attribute it to maybe being separated from the rest of the group and labeled. More likely it is his high potential that caused the awkwardness. Studies consistently show that mild to moderately gifted students fit in well with their peers but as you get to the highly and profound levels (98-99%ile and above), there is increased difficulty. They just can't relate because they are at such a different intellectual level and often have trouble finding common topics. That is why extra curricular activities are so important for them. This is the same thing that happens with the lower performing children: the ones just below the average range can still often hang on to their peer groups but as you go further out, the children just don't have the same developmental viewpoint and can't relate as well.

One thing that I think people overlook when thinking about GT is that these kids (the top 5-10%) are our future scientists, doctors, philosophers, writers etc. These are the ones who have the potential to change the world in a big way. but in order to do that, they need to be in for the long haul in the academic world. If they are bored silly by 2nd grade, they become underachievers and never reach their full potential. Of course, if they are pushed too hard or in the wrong way they will burn out. It's finding the right balance. We are always complaining about how other countries have a leg-up on us in terms of education and top performing professionals, etc. If we took care of our brightest students properly from an early age and allowed them to soar at their own rate, I think you would see a large change in this discrepancy. You would also have more students as role models for the "average" students.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

Warning... stepping up on my soapbox now....

Coterpandagirl, I LOVE LOVE LOVE your response. I also have been in the SPED field for the last 8 years and couldn't agree more you on EVERYTHING you said!!!!!

One thing that I think people overlook when thinking about GT is that these kids (the top 5-10%) are our future scientists, doctors, philosophers, writers etc. These are the ones who have the potential to change the world in a big way. but in order to do that, they need to be in for the long haul in the academic world. If they are bored silly by 2nd grade, they become underachievers and never reach their full potential. Of course, if they are pushed too hard or in the wrong way they will burn out. It's finding the right balance. We are always complaining about how other countries have a leg-up on us in terms of education and top performing professionals, etc. If we took care of our brightest students properly from an early age and allowed them to soar at their own rate, I think you would see a large change in this discrepancy. You would also have more students as role models for the "average" students.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement!!! Our current crop of doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc., for the most part, were never identified as "gifted and talented." Now, whether or not you want to argue the point that maybe they were GT, but never identified, is a moot point. Many, many "average" students in the elementary and middle school years will find a passion within themselves once they get into high school, or possibly even college. Now as for myself, I was much more interested in "social" things than academics in middle and high school, but once I got into college, I pursued my studies with a passion and was on the Dean's list every single semester.

I really have a problem with the whole GT education system, at least in my county. It's a pull out program 1 day per week, where the kids are sent to a different school to work on things that have nothing to do w/the curriculum. Now it's a great program, don't get me wrong, but why can't these "special" programs be offered to all of the kids? We don't want to leave any child behind, we want to practice total inclusion, but by the very nature of these programs we are excluding kids who may (or , may not) benefit from exposure to higher level thinking skills. I have a few LD kids who are severely dyslexic, but are very, very intelligent and would really love this exposure.

In addition, I've seen many kids drop out of GT programs for one reason or another. It's also a fact that certain "high maintenance" parents can get their kids admitted to these programs through their insistence, throwing money at independent testing facilities, politics, etc. And you know what? In our population of 5th graders, with probably 1/3 of them identified as GT, I honestly don't see a lot of that advanced thinking going on in the classroom on a daily basis with the exception of TWO, yes, TWO of the kids in the entire 5th grade.

Margg... I agree... everyone is gifted, everyone's gifts are different!!!

... stepping down from my soapbox now.

 

[sally]

I have to agree not all dr's, scientist etc are in the so called gifted and talented. I know for a fact my friend who is about to become a dr was never gifted actually she was the complete opposite, she struggled through school and worked very hard. Most of these kids that become something has nothing to do with how smart a person is but about how hard a person works with the study. Bit like gymnastics your child will be good if they put the hrs in and try hard.