WAG Giving bad news

[gymisforeveryone]

I really appreciate your points. I do believe that gymnastics is for everyone, but competitive gymnastics isn't. These girls have experienced failure way too much at practices and it breaks my heart. They have improved just a little bit when the others have picked up several skills and gain much more strength and flexibility. I hate it when I see that these kids understand they are the worst in almost everything. It's not nice for children and my and my club's goal is to offer every gymnast a group where they can practice skills that are current considering their level.

The goal of the club is to pick just very potential and successful 5 and 6 year olds to pre-team because we don't like dropping kids off. When these girls were chosen the club did see their potential for sure. But now they have all met their limitations. One of them is very unflexible. She can't do handstands or cartwheels properly because of her tight muscles. And the bridge isn't going to happen. One of the girls has normal flexibility but no strength enough. The last one can't pay attention and has loose muscles. The last girl's mother was spoken by the club during the Christmas break. We suggested them rec classes because we couldn't see the girl enjoying intensive pre-team training. She didn't smile and didn't want to make the corrections. The mother said she doesn't want to move her yet but if the situation doesn't change it's ok for them after spring season.

Two of the first girls are cousins. Their mothers are lovely and it's easy to cooperative with them. Yesterday I send a message for both of them. I told that I would like to know if the kids have talked anything about practices. Are they happy? These cousins are well-behaving and well-mannered but very quiet. They don't show emotions. That's because I asked the parents. The mother of the girl A answered my email already and said she really appreciated my concerns. She said many things about her daughters feelings (they had a conversation before) and said that her daughter had said she would not like more intensive training. The girl A had said she would not like to practice in the summer at all.

That made it a lot easier. I then told about our goal to move the pre-team gymnast up and make them practice time double during summer and fall. That fits for most of my girls (and other girls same age who come from other groups) but it doesn't fit for these three girls. I don't see the point of making them practice 7 hours a week if they don't have the passion and everything else what it takes.

I also told I would love to keep coaching their daughter. I hope we can make a developmental rec group for these girls and some other girls from rec and I could coach them once a week. Then they can also participate a silver mark practices which are open for all the girls who want to practice more than once a week. Mastering bronze and silver marks is the first competitive level and kids are usually chosen for pre-teams or team groups from those mark practices. I do think that if they will stick with gymnastics this way they may be given another change to do competitive gymnastics later on.

As I said I don't like dropping children off. We didn't do that at a different club in my hometown. But in there we didn't have that many successful and potential kids. Now we have "too" many very very good girls. There is no place and no coaches for more than 10 intensive training competitive groups and to secure future we have to take some new girls born 2007-2006 in. I have no power to change this policy.

 

[txgymfan]

You talked to the parents in exactly the right way. Take a moment and be proud that you communicated with honesty and compassion.

 

[beamer]

I apologize for my snarky reply of last night. I maybe had one too many sips of the scorpion bowl my husband and I shared while out to dinner. We talked about the issues of participation vs. selectiveness in youth sports and came to the conclusion delineated in my first post.

Gymisforeveryone: I appreciate your dilemma. I really do. But my kid is your dilemma..the not very flexible one with loose muscles? And when I think what she would have missed had her pre-team coach made the hard decision five years ago? Great friends. Lifelong mentors in some amazing (and, in her case, patient) coaches. Travel to places as far flung as Trinidad! A beautiful healthy, strong body and mind. There are very few trophies; for the most part, she doesn't care.

After all, we are talking about 3 kids here, not 20. I am sure your coaching staff can incorporate these three. If there is no passion for the sport and they become discouraged at their lack of progress or always being last at competitions, they will weed themselves out! If they don't want to practice in the summer, they will weed themselves out!

I am not suggesting these 3 get tracked with your elites. I am suggesting they be allowed to go with the sport for as long as they feel like working at it. And not in recreational. We all know that rec gymnastics does not compare in any way, shape or form to a team-track gymnastics program.

It's great that you have 50 age/body appropriate, talented kids for your team. But coaching is kinda like teaching, isn't it? Any old teacher can have success with the naturally uber-smart, competitive, hard-working superstar. It is the teacher who finds success with the struggling student who stands out.

My kid might be out of the sport in six weeks or she might be in it for six more years (potentially scrabbling by the skin of her leotard to level 8 or 9). Either way, JO team-track has been an amazing experience for her. Had she not wanted it, she would have weeded herself out.

 

[JBS]

I guess I don't understand why gymnastics is not like many other sports in which you have to "try-out" each year to find out what team you have made. Sure...I agree that it would be great if "everyone that tries out makes a team"...but the gym has to be ready to handle that...and I'm not sure if every country/culture in the world believes in that concept.

 

[shelovestoflip]

I am sorry, but this is exactly what is wrong with the sport. What is wrong with Rec. gymnastics?- nothing on the surface, but no one signs up for rec soccer or rec volleyball. After all, I have never seen a gym tout its rec program; it is always so and so made it into so and so college or our team got 1st at so and so meet. They want to join a team. It is one thing to do it once a week for fun, but to be put into the preteam stream and the knocked out is poor planning.This is sometimes called the reverse pyramid method or funnel method and does miss some kids who are late starters or kids who are outside the box.Better to funnel kids into different streams like AAU, X-Cel or lower level JO.
To quote J.O.-The Junior Olympic program was developed with the belief that all athletes, regardless of their potential, must have a solid foundation of basic skills in order to advance safely. The program allows the gymnast to advance at her own pace, competing at more than one level in a year, if she so chooses.

I do think there are many good gyms out there that 'tout their rec programs' in addition to their team program....my daughter's gym being one of them.

Her gym has a solid JO team with girls making it to Easterns/Nationals almost every year. However their Prep Opt program is just a strong as their JO program because many girls are strong gymnasts but realize they want to commit to other things as they get older. The gym built up their PrepOpt program specifically due to customer need! Additionally, their rec program is huge with a successful summer camp and weekend birthday party program as well. Frankly, I know this is really where they make their money! Not off team!

So to assume that gyms don't tout their rec programs isn't a good assumption unless you have compared many gyms out there. Maybe it depends on your location. We are in a large city with many great gyms to choose from both large and small, gyms who have trained Olympians and gyms that do mommy and me....you can find what you want out there.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

I guess I don't understand why gymnastics is not like many other sports in which you have to "try-out" each year to find out what team you have made. Sure...I agree that it would be great if "everyone that tries out makes a team"...but the gym has to be ready to handle that...and I'm not sure if every country/culture in the world believes in that concept.

Hmmm, it is odd that in the US its not like that as you seem to very much have that culture in other sports ( like athletics - win the trial or don't go)

My experiences over here are a bit different - mind you your levels system is very regimented - our gymnasts have different level competitions they can enter, rec, novice, intermediate, county, regional, national with minium skill requirements for each level ( pink and fluffy is moving from Novice to intermediate and has her first 2 Piece Intermediate next month).

I know at her last club the guys had skills and conditioning testing twice a year and they were grouped for training according to those results - you were moved up or down dependent on that.

I think your levels dictate training groups - "we are all level 4s so we are working on these skills this year".

JMHO

'Margo

 

[beamer]

This is a very interesting topic that inspires passions on both sides of the debate (selectiveness vs. inclusion). It is especially timely here in the U.S. (maybe not so much in Finland ), given that USAG is --as we all know too well at this point! -- revamping its JO program in order to keep more kids participating in the JO program. Someone correct me if that is not the ultimate aim of the level changes for next year.

So, this is my question. Why do we need to tell 6- to 10-year-old kids, "You are not good enough", whether that sport is soccer, gymnastics or competitive Quidditch?

There is plenty of time -- high school, college...adulthood -- for the reality check.

In any case, I am not making an argument for higher-level gymnastics with no tryouts. I am making a case for, once a kid has been identified for a higher stream (which is the case here), giving that kid a chance to prove his/her mettle.

In the seven years I have been observing this sport, I can say that without exception the weeding out process has worked exactly as it should. Those who don't want to work, can't keep up or learn the necessary skills move on.

I love going to meets and seeing gymnastics programs whose athletes demonstrate a wide variety of skills, talents, body sizes, ages. That is so cool. And this should be what team gymnastics is about -- participation over victory for those who love the sport and are willing to work for it.

Gymisforeveryone is in Finland and, conceivably, works at a gym that does not have an Xcel-type program toward which he can direct 3 kids. So rather than go through the agony of breaking the bad news to three nice families (he described the moms as "lovely" -- no CGMs there!), why not let them stay if they are committed to the work, cash and time involved?

 

[Flossyduck]

I don't know about Finland, but here in the UK the emphasis isn't really on 'team' gymnastics. There are relatively few competitions where there is any kind of team prize and the girls enter as individuals at whatever level/grade they are ready for. So the whole 'being on team' thing is not such an issue.

 

[cbifoja]

So, this is my question. Why do we need to tell 6- to 10-year-old kids, "You are not good enough", whether that sport is soccer, gymnastics or competitive Quidditch?

There is plenty of time -- high school, college...adulthood -- for the reality check.

I am an advocate of healthy competition. It teaches kids life skills, important ones. Very few people accidentally become experts in their fields or successes in their businesses. Most of us have to work to achieve and this is a lesson that should be instilled early rather than later. These lessons won't just take when someone turns a magical age. "Well, I just turned 18 so now I have to ignore all of the lessons presented to me in my life and realize that I now have to earn my rewards."

I disagree with participation medals/ribbons/trophies. In my opinion, it creates an atmosphere of entitlement...."I showed up, now where is my reward?" We are already seeing this by the time kids get to high school. They will say "well, I tried to do the assignment, so I should get credit." And they are deadly serious. They honestly already believe that attempt is the same as success. And unfortunately, it is just as maddening to talk to their parents who have raised them with this attitude and also buy into the idea that their child attempted 40 math problems so they should get 40 points worth of credit. Reality be damned that they only answered 5 correctly, the fact is that "they tried."

My child trains two sports. Obviously gymnastics is one. The other one is one of those sports that gives trophies to everyone! Showed up to a couple of practices and a game? TROPHY! Fell down more than you touched the ball? YOU WERE A SUCCESS! Ummm....no. And these kids aren't stupid. The participation trophy awarded at the end of every season gets tossed in the back seat and then quickly donated to a recycling center. The only trophies she values are the ones she earned. Those have meaning behind them because they don't give them out to everyone. So those she displays.

There is nothing "wrong" with being a rec gymnast. Gymnastics shouldn't have to mean that everyone get to compete. Participate, sure. But there are rewards with being a competitive gymnast that should be limited to those who have the skills to get to whatever level they can. And again, it's okay to be a compulsory gymnast or an Xcel gymnast or a JO optional. But there is a certain level of respect that those upper optional and elite gymnasts get because they have the skill and work ethic to reach those heights.

I don't think we are doing our kids any favors by creating these false environments surrounding competition. Let our kids lose. I swear my gymnast has learned so much more from the year she wasn't top 3 every meet than she ever did when she was. Losing is a valuable lesson. Not making a cut off is a valuable lesson. Not having everything handed to you is a LIFE lesson.

ETA: OP, I am also one who would appreciate your honestly and being so forthright about the situation. I agree that you handled it well and should be proud that you didn't lead anyone on or deceive anyone about what was going to happen.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

I don't know about Finland, but here in the UK the emphasis isn't really on 'team' gymnastics. There are relatively few competitions where there is any kind of team prize and the girls enter as individuals at whatever level/grade they are ready for. So the whole 'being on team' thing is not such an issue.

I think we do most of the things like you in UK. At the end gymnastics world is quite different here in Europe. We don't have "teams" either. Girls go to competitions as individuals. And there may be girls from different levels in one training group. The aim is that we practice gymnastics. We don't practice to win trophies and medals, we practice to become succesful gymnasts one day.

And I have to disagree with those who think rec is nothing. I coach four rec classes. Some of my 12 yo gymnasts have done rec since they were 6. Before that they did preschool classes. And actually last week we invited a 13 yo girl from rec to join my levels D-E (could be compared to levels 5-7 in US) training group. So I don't say that these three girls have to do rec forever. No. If they progress well and gain more skills in a few years I think they might get chosen back to competitive groups at age 9/10 (we usually do have one "less hours, less intensive training, less competitions" group for girls age 9-12 but they are all in levels B or C).

The thing is that if they were moved up, they would have to train 7 hours a week and all the other gymnast would compete level B or maybe even C during fall season. It would seem like setting them to failure if we made them compete too. They are not ready and they don't have the skills or strength and flexibility to do the skills. And if they won't compete at all, why to put them in a group that trains 7 hours a week and practices routines? And the mother of girl A said me that her daughter doesn't want more hours.

 

[jmanmommmy]

I am an advocate of healthy competition. It teaches kids life skills, important ones. Very few people accidentally become experts in their fields or successes in their businesses. Most of us have to work to achieve and this is a lesson that should be instilled early rather than later. These lessons won't just take when someone turns a magical age. "Well, I just turned 18 so now I have to ignore all of the lessons presented to me in my life and realize that I now have to earn my rewards."

I disagree with participation medals/ribbons/trophies. In my opinion, it creates an atmosphere of entitlement...."I showed up, now where is my reward?" We are already seeing this by the time kids get to high school. They will say "well, I tried to do the assignment, so I should get credit." And they are deadly serious. They honestly already believe that attempt is the same as success. And unfortunately, it is just as maddening to talk to their parents who have raised them with this attitude and also buy into the idea that their child attempted 40 math problems so they should get 40 points worth of credit. Reality be damned that they only answered 5 correctly, the fact is that "they tried."

My child trains two sports. Obviously gymnastics is one. The other one is one of those sports that gives trophies to everyone! Showed up to a couple of practices and a game? TROPHY! Fell down more than you touched the ball? YOU WERE A SUCCESS! Ummm....no. And these kids aren't stupid. The participation trophy awarded at the end of every season gets tossed in the back seat and then quickly donated to a recycling center. The only trophies she values are the ones she earned. Those have meaning behind them because they don't give them out to everyone. So those she displays.

There is nothing "wrong" with being a rec gymnast. Gymnastics shouldn't have to mean that everyone get to compete. Participate, sure. But there are rewards with being a competitive gymnast that should be limited to those who have the skills to get to whatever level they can. And again, it's okay to be a compulsory gymnast or an Xcel gymnast or a JO optional. But there is a certain level of respect that those upper optional and elite gymnasts get because they have the skill and work ethic to reach those heights.

I don't think we are doing our kids any favors by creating these false environments surrounding competition. Let our kids lose. I swear my gymnast has learned so much more from the year she wasn't top 3 every meet than she ever did when she was. Losing is a valuable lesson. Not making a cut off is a valuable lesson. Not having everything handed to you is a LIFE lesson.

ETA: OP, I am also one who would appreciate your honestly and being so forthright about the situation. I agree that you handled it well and should be proud that you didn't lead anyone on or deceive anyone about what was going to happen.

I would advocate for more participation and MORE competition to get into JO. No more handing preteam spots on a platter to itty bitties just because they are the daughter of a coach's friend or relative, or sister of another gymnast, or because someone who has never coached level 10s thinks they have a gymnast body type at age 4 or 5. No more handpicking of girls who have done nothing to earn their spot, and then making it super tough for anyone else over the age of 6 to break into JO.

How about this? Anyone age 5 to 9 who wants to try team and whose parents are willing to pay for it, can get on a training team with tough conditioning and good coaching with attention to good form. NO gymnast at that point can assume they have been preordained for JO track (versus 95% of them now).

Evaluate these girls in 6 months intervals (or whatever makes sense to the gym). Keep them there or move them to Excel Bronze, JO 4/5, or a "rec training group" or if they want, back to just rec classes. Younger girls could stay in this group for up to 2 years, older kids maybe only 1 year.

For the kids who move to either Excel or even rec training group, continue to give them good conditioning and coaching. Be open minded to kids who do great in one of those groups and be open to moving Excel kids to JO or rec training to Excel if they really do well. For girls over 10, perhaps they could go into a rec training group or right to Excel bronze or gold if they have the skills. And a few who do awesome may be able to go over to level 5.

THAT is competition, not handpicking a few and not giving anyone else a realistic chance get enough conditioning and coaching to ever try to get onto JO.

And it also offers lots of routes to participation and accomplishment and progression in the sport. I think our high school team quality would go way up, as would JO. And it would be a little more fair.

 

[dmytv]

I know the OP is from Finland and I do not know how sports are viewed there, but here in the US, competitive sports are part of the American culture. We love our football, basketball, golf, etc. Every Friday Highschools fill stadiums watching kids compete. TV programs on college and professional sports fill the air waves; Stadiums fit 50-60 thousand people- Every week. In all those other sports, no one told a 6-8 year old he/she was not good enough to compete at even a basic level. As far as I know USAG does not make any real money on rec programs. If I run a rec only program I don't have to go through them. No rec kids are usag registered members. They enter no competitions. USAG wants these kids included because it expands particpation in the sport. Just like ymca or city soccer, inclusion is important. Now I don't think everyone should be given a medal, but offered that chance to compete, and win or loose the kids learn alot.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

I don't know how to explain our sports culture in English the way you will get the point, but I'll try

So, we love sports too. Mostly winter sports like ice-hockey, skiing, ice-skating and ski-jumping. All the cities and even little towns and villages have their own sports clubs that are OLD. The club I coach was set up in 1904. We have longtime traditions of volunteering in here. Sports clubs NEVER EVER make money. We don't have private clubs or private gyms or private anything (no private schools either). Schools don't have their own teams like you have in US. And kids don't do sports at school expect once or twice a week P.E (mostly skiing, skating, trying soccer, volleyball, floorball etc)

Every child can join a sports club. Our club does gymnastics, athletics, wrestling and weight lifting... The idea is that children, teens and adults can do anything recreationally. We don't use that kind of word and I think you don't have better word than that in English so it's hard to explain. If you want to play soccer in a smaller town you will be in a team automatically but in bigger cities they have many teams. One might practice more hours and play in different division to other low key team of the same club. The best players are given a chance to be in the prime team. The same thing can be seen in individual sports. Most of the kids will never be invited to competitive groups. It's not the default value. Only the best are chosen and that's a huge honor for them. When they accept the invite they pretty much engage for the sport and for the club they represent. In here the kids don't jump from gym to gym.

So I don't think everyone should be given a chance to do competitive gymnastics. I think it's different to those team sports like soccer. They have a team with them and it's not the end of the world if one kid is not very good player when there is 10 others who are good. And sports like soccer doesn't ask that much from a child. Anyone can run and kick a ball. But in gymnastics even the lowest level requires SO MUCH strength and flexibility and motor functions that I think these two sports should not be compared.

 

[leotardmakermum]

Oh, how I love the fact that there is more than one way to do things, and there is no one RIGHT way. No one culture is better than than another, no matter how much we may all think our own culture may be the best, or at least has the most sensible way to do things.

I'm celebrating the differences here!

 

[cbifoja]

If I could double like Leo mum's post I would.

Sent from my LGL55C using ChalkBucket mobile app

 

[JBS]

Every Friday Highschools fill stadiums watching kids compete.

Remember...there is also a student section at high school games...many of these students tried out for the team and did not make the cut.

TV programs on college and professional sports fill the air waves; Stadiums fit 50-60 thousand people- Every week. In all those other sports, no one told a 6-8 year old he/she was not good enough to compete at even a basic level.

No...but you find it out when your kid only plays two plays...in outfield...when no one can hit the ball past second base. The child competed in baseball...even though the child cannot throw or catch a ball.

If a 6 years old is unable to do a forward roll, backward roll, cartwheel, or handstand...what would they compete? It's harder to "hide" that in the middle of the spring floor with everyone watching.

As far as I know USAG does not make any real money on rec programs. If I run a rec only program I don't have to go through them. No rec kids are usag registered members. They enter no competitions. USAG wants these kids included because it expands particpation in the sport. Just like ymca or city soccer, inclusion is important. Now I don't think everyone should be given a medal, but offered that chance to compete, and win or loose the kids learn alot.

What if a club said..."We offer everyone a chance to compete...but first you must have these skills".

 

[JBS]

Don't get me wrong...I'm all about inclusion...we have an Xcel team with 40 gymnasts. However...a gymnast must still get invited to be on our Xcel team.

 

[mommyof1]

How about this? Anyone age 5 to 9 who wants to try team and whose parents are willing to pay for it, can get on a training team with tough conditioning and good coaching with attention to good form. NO gymnast at that point can assume they have been preordained for JO track (versus 95% of them now).

This is the perfect solution for the issues I see with our gym's program. The initial screening for preteam is done by the rec coaches, and most of the girls who are sent for an evaluation come up through the advanced preschool class. Many of the kids who get on preteam don't really want to do the work that's required, and the attrition rate is very high. At the same time, other kids who do want to work hard get stuck in the rec classes, where they do virtually no conditioning and little work on flexibility and have little chance to improve.

In every other sport and activity I know of, all kids have access to quality instruction at the beginner levels so they can try it out and see if they have what it takes. Nobody screens kids for "talent" before they sign up for ballet or piano lessons. Sure, there are auditions for youth orchestras and pre-professional dance programs, but only after the kids have had several years to develop their skills.

 

[jmanmommmy]

I agree. I have a family member who is an elite athlete in a different sport. She has had many many tryouts, competitions, etc. through the years. Intense competition to get to her current level. But in the beginning.....way back when..... No one lined them up at 4 to 7 years old and decided only a few kids with certain body types (or those who are friends or relatives of the "choosers") could get the first levels of competitive training and conditioning, and everyone else was shut out. Thousands and thousands of kids were at her level, and she was eventually given more opportunities through hard work, talent, and what she achieved. If only really short, muscular girls can be good level 10 gymnasts, then that is what will happen through true competition. They don't need to be handed the opportunity tied up neatly with a bow when they are 5. And the "one in a million" that have super star potential, those girls will skyrocket through the system just like they do now.

 

[Ex member]

This is an interesting discussion, I can see where a lot if you are coming from. At the gym my dd goes to they started a new development group with 7-8 girls aged 5-7, one if the girls used to be in a development group straight from pre school but went to rec as she didn't like it, some of the others have older sisters in team and a couple that they liked the look of from rec classes, at my dd's gym there doesn't seem to be a cut of point a to when they start development classes as they have taken girls over 9 years old.I cannot see the advantage to being in a pre team group or development group from the age of 4 as nearly all of them have quit gym within a year in my experience. It would be better to gave opertunities to children who have done rec for at least a year before asking them to train for longer hours and also give the opertunities to anyone that has a strong interest with a 4 week trial class.