WAG Giving bad news

[JBS]

How about this? Anyone age 5 to 9 who wants to try team and whose parents are willing to pay for it, can get on a training team with tough conditioning and good coaching with attention to good form. NO gymnast at that point can assume they have been preordained for JO track (versus 95% of them now).

How about........No.

A seven year old without a cartwheel???...weird system.



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[tooootsie]

I just wanted to add a little... And I am new to this whole thing, but... I know at DD's gym the head coaches look for kids from the rec classes for developmental team and pre-team. Yes I am sure sometimes it has to do with "so and so's sister" etc. But maybe that is because "so and so's family" is dedicated to the sport. And maybe her little sister is a fantastic gymnast because she has been watching her sister practice since she was a baby. Our gym has Excel and JO paths. I know kids on developmental team have a better chance of competing starting at level four, and the pre-team kids have less of a chance. It is a different path, and it appears that they have less practice hours and a larger team. Developmental teams have maybe 6 kids per group, and only 3 groups in the gym at A. B. or C. level. Personally I knew nothing about there being anything different between rec or anything else till my children moved onto those teams. I was content with my girls going to have fun and learn cartwheels. Now it's a different more $$$$ more time consuming game that they love very much.

BUT that being said, if one day my kids start not doing as well and are dropped from developmental team (could happen next eval next spring) Then I would be sad, and I would try to do what i could to keep them on team. But if I noticed them starting to not catch on skills as quickly as friends, I would be inclined to private lessons to help them catch up... or ask them if they still want to continue gymnastics?

Wow I totally rambled. Anyways, I hope I got my point across... not sure what my point was.

 

[emorymom]

How about........No.

A seven year old without a cartwheel???...weird system.



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JBS -- I would like to know why. There are certainly going to be kids who have some quirky difficulties cleaning up a cartwheel at 7, who would be capable of being a, say, L7 by age 16 and have a great time doing it. I would like to see the kids who get to L7 or 8 before they finish high school and then quit, be given some of the same value in gyms as the kids who get to L6 by age 10 and then quit. I think the sport needs to acknowledge that the main holdback to gymnastics achievement is quitting and injury, not struggling at the lower levels. Most gyms around here seem to deal with a chronic shortage of quality coaches. I suggest that one important factor in producing more L10s and Elites in the US is encouraging greater levels of gymnastics training and skill achievement among children PERIOD, including among gymnasts who probably aren't capable of getting to L10 by college.

 

[aerialriver]

I just do not understand. Certainly everyone has to know that not all kids are cut out for all activities. There were a lot of activities my parents stopped me from doing after short periods of trial like playing the flute and singing I am not musical at all and after a while it becomes a waste of time and money.

I am not saying that if a kid really wants to do gym they should not have the chance to, but why is there this attitude that all of them should be entitled to compete? There is nothing wrong with doing something recreationally. Just because I like to shoot hoops with the neighbor does not entitle me to join the WNBA. Lots of sports have tryouts even kids school sports and some kids don't make the cut.

Everyone has talents and apparently for these girls it just isn't gymnastics. I would hope most parents would respect this and find it a good time to try other things.

Luckily I guess anyways our gym does not turn people away, they do have to stat at level 1 and a few don't make it to the level 2 "team" they are invited if they are ready to compete and if the parent is in full agreement time wise and money wise. And the kids at these low levels weed themselves out quickly. You can tell the ones that are not going to have much success and even more important not have much fun. They are often drawn to other similar sports, trampoline, cheer and dance and the parents seem happy to be able to close their wallets to meets, fees, leos, travel etc. before it gets insane expensive.

 

[chalkbowl]

I think the sport needs to acknowledge that the main holdback to gymnastics achievement is quitting and injury, not struggling at the lower levels. .

But I know many kids who have quit BECAUSE they struggled in the lower levels. While their teammates were up on the awards stand winning 4 medals and trophy, the child that ended up quitting is sitting on the floor with nothing around her neck...

 

[Jenny]

But I know many kids who have quit BECAUSE they struggled in the lower levels. While their teammates were up on the awards stand winning 4 medals and trophy, the child that ended up quitting is sitting on the floor with nothing around her neck...

Only in the USA though. Most other countries only medal the top 3. The other 40 kids get nothing. They don't all quit.

 

[bogwoppit]

Only in the USA though. Most other countries only medal the top 3. The other 40 kids get nothing. They don't all quit.

A big yes to this. In the meets my girls have done it is the lucky few who get medals. Top 3 on each apparatus and top 3 AA. SO most kids go home with nothing, and groups can be as big as 60/70 kids. They competed because they loved it, not because they got anything. Though I have to say in the USA kids sports are huge money, with gymnastics teams often competing 10+ times a season and having medals to 50% deep with trophies and team prizes. We just do not have those kinds of meets at all. Not sure parents would tolerate it here.

 

[leotardmakermum]

"Everyone gets a prize" (or "most people get a prize") devalues effort and hard work. What point is there in working hard and doing your best if you're going to get a prize regardless of whether you came 1st or 25th?

 

[gymdog]

I definitely agree with expanding developmental programs to a point. However, they have to be physically strong enough (able to do pull ups) before they come. And mature enough to do the class. If they don't have the strength and maturity they will not be happy and will hold the class back. Parent recommendation is not reliable at all.

Many people won't be able to do high levels of gymnastics because of the discomfort/pain associated with higher levels. People have different sensitivities. It doesn't make them a bad/weak person, it's a physiological process happening. Actually there are many neurological things happening that are going to affect gymnastics ability. And people here are saying well if they just get the hard coaching they can do it. That is not true. Only to a point. At some point we cannot alter people's neurological, physiological, psychological traits. We just can't. Add to that unhealthy parent/child dynamics in certain cases. There are a lot of things going on.

For example I'm not perfect for gymnastics, not extremely coordinated. Many people are more coordinated than me. But I'm very strong and have fast twitch muscles, and generally insensitive to pain. What many people perceive as painful feels like mild discomfort to me, maybe like an itch. These traits allowed me to go pretty far in gymnastics. But I am actually pretty hopeless at other sports, like basketball or softball, because I have average to mediocre hand eye coordination and depth perception. Even with a lot of coaching, I would never be as good as people who are gifted in this area. I HAVE had a ton of visual-motor training through gymnastics and it has only altered this so far. So it's just doubtful.

But to an extent I think a child who shows potential should get an opportunity. Many children in our "Excel" track are there for maturity reasons. Parents don't want to hear that so they make up their own excuses. But we have a very tough conditioning/high standards program for the level system and generally won't take a kid who whines constantly and talks back to the coaches about how they should do this instead.

 

[aerialriver]

"Everyone gets a prize" (or "most people get a prize") devalues effort and hard work. What point is there in working hard and doing your best if you're going to get a prize regardless of whether you came 1st or 25th?

Because this is America and everyone is entitled to a prize!

T&T is the worst, all local meet EVERYONE gets a medal worse yet everyone gets the same exact usually ugly bronzy colored medal with no place on it. I have to write on them to keep it straight. And awards take forever! Even at Regional's last year they only went out 50% but they broke the age groups down into group A, group B etc. to ensure everyone got something. Ridicolous!

If you are that caught up in making sure Suzy gets a prize enter her in pagents Toddlers and Tiaras style, she might not be grand supreme but surely she will make princess court and still get a tiara

 

[JBS]

JBS -- I would like to know why.

Gymnastics is a business in the US. That would double our current team...which would take training time away from our top athletes...which would make our team worse. Doubling our team coaching staff would cost over $200,000 per year. Now lets say we brought in 3 or 4 more TOP coaches...they are going to want to develop kids that can't do a cartwheel towards L10? We would also have an initial investment to expand our gym...as a team of well over 200 athletes would not fit.

Sure...you could say that 100 gymnasts x $3000/year = $300,000/year...and that would cover it...which it would...it would produce a profit...

...but if you took this business plan to anyone in the industry...they would laugh...it's like your building a giant machine to mass produce "failure"...people don't pay very much for that.

The real problem is that 50% of the talented kids that we invite to team each year deny the offer.

 

[Jenny]

The real problem is that 50% of the talented kids that we invite to team each year deny the offer.

And another 25% drop out within 2 years.

 

[JBS]

This is really a great thread...believe me...this is what many clubs are trying to figure out. The amount of money that is able to be made from putting everyone on team is extraordinary. Most clubs that try this concept get a little bit into the journey and figure out that they must slow down before they bite off more than they can chew. Putting everyone on team can snowball out of control in a really bad way.

Fighting soccer is a discussion that I have had hundreds of times...and it always ends up the same...gymnastics and soccer cannot be compared...they are just too different. Anyone can start playing a sport such as soccer with a $10 ball. We used to play games such as soccer in my neighborhood growing up. It would be organized by the older kids in the neighborhood...we would divide into teams and play. You really don't see neighborhood gymnastics competitions...sure...you see little girls doing cartwheels through the grass...but not organizing full competitions in at the park. Maybe there used to be a time when this happened...before my time...

[video=youtube;w4VGkgtLnao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4VGkgtLnao[/video]

...but I'm sure neighborhood soccer was still bigger.

Here's another thing...of the kids that could be a L7/8 and no higher...but not until they are 15 or 16 years old...most of them quit before this can happen. You have to have a group of them to get them to stick around...this is not a target age group for L7/8 for most clubs.

 

[cbifoja]

This is really a great thread...believe me...this is what many clubs are trying to figure out. The amount of money that is able to be made from putting everyone on team is extraordinary. Most clubs that try this concept get a little bit into the journey and figure out that they must slow down before they bite off more than they can chew. Putting everyone on team can snowball out of control in a really bad way.

Fighting soccer is a discussion that I have had hundreds of times...and it always ends up the same...gymnastics and soccer cannot be compared...they are just too different. Anyone can start playing a sport such as soccer with a $10 ball. We used to play games such as soccer in my neighborhood growing up. It would be organized by the older kids in the neighborhood...we would divide into teams and play. You really don't see neighborhood gymnastics competitions...sure...you see little girls doing cartwheels through the grass...but not organizing full competitions in at the park. Maybe there used to be a time when this happened...before my time...

[video=youtube;w4VGkgtLnao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4VGkgtLnao[/video]

...but I'm sure neighborhood soccer was still bigger.

Here's another thing...of the kids that could be a L7/8 and no higher...but not until they are 15 or 16 years old...most of them quit before this can happen. You have to have a group of them to get them to stick around...this is not a target age group for L7/8 for most clubs.

Is that Dunno in those tight short shorts?

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[Hanada]

To be honest, Gymnastics IS for everyone... Competitive gymnastics is NOT. I would just tell the parents that the kids need xyz to move on, and they can work on xyz in rec and try out again next year.

 

[ALgymMom]

Our small gym turns no one away, no matter your body type or skill progression! I will say, however, that I can not figure out why any family would pay $$$$$$$ for this sport if your child doesn't have some natural talent! You can get these same life lessons from cheaper sports: T-Ball, school soccer, church basketball etc... I have been there. My middle daughter cared nothing about gymnastics and it showed in her practices and meets!! Off to jazz class she went!

 

[emorymom]

Problem Hanada is that you cannot work on XYZ in rec in the vast majority of gyms.

Geeze, just the path to preteam in a lot of gyms in my city is littered with nonsense. At one gym, my friend was told her daughter could not join pre-team until she had a pullover. Her mom dutifully took her to 2 classes a week of rec, and in the next 8 weeks no coach ever took the group to bars. Meanwhile selection for preteam came and went. This child is no longer in gymnastics.

A child CAPABLE of gymnastics (like my daughter and many children) but not naturally gifted, CANNOT learn the L2 skills in a rec class. They need a 2x a week, 3-4 hour a week preteam group with high expectations.

 

[txgymfan]

I think there are some ( lots and lots) of generalizations going on in this thread. 1. Someone said that gyms don't have criteria for preteam but JBS clearly outlined the criteria for his gym's preteam ( see post #11). He is not the only gym in the US to have criteria for preteam. 2. There are also complaints that the best coaches are not coahing rec or pre team. In what sports do the highest level coaches coach the first levels? At a kids soccer game you have parents that are willing to put in the time ( maybe enough, maybe not) but many have never coached or even played before. 3. In rec classes you cant get the skills needed for preteam. I'm guessing you can in some gyms. 4. People say gym is expensive but to get a high level coach for lots of preteam classes would be even more expensive. Every gym is different, every kid is different. In every gym every kid will not progresss in the same way. The challenge as parents is to find the best match possible in your situation and that involves some work and a lot of luck.

 

[Natasha]

Well stated txgymfan. Our gym's rec program is the USAG developmental program, using levels 1-5. The skills for each level are the same skills that kids compete at those levels, but they do not learn the routines or compete. Kids must demonstrate that they can do each skill to pass the skill and then pass all the skills in each level to move to the next level. Classes are grouped by ages and level for level 1-3, and then mixed ages for level 4-5. The preschool levels are also 1-4. Kids can and do learn the skills in the rec classes. Yes, there is less focus on strength and conditioning and there is not an expectation to do the skills with excellent form (As the majority of 1,000 rec kids per year at our gym are not interested in the details of great form- they just want to learn the skills because it is fun.) For those kids who show a desire to do skills with great form and a desire for strength and conditioning can try out for team at open try outs in the spring starting as early as age 5 and up to any age (although I think 13 is the oldest we have had try out). Usually the majority of kids who try out are placed either on pre-team, or on the Xcel Bronze (or Silver team for older girls) or they may start at L4 team if they already have the skills. My dd did 2 years of rec starting at age 6, and then joined the L4 team at age 8. For the gymnasts that compete Xcel their first year, they may continue to advance in the Xcel levels, compete L4 or L5, or decide that team is not for them. For the girls who try out and do not have either the minimum skills required, maturity, or demonstrated desire, they are recommended to continue rec classes or occasionally are given a "trial" over the summer.

 

[txgymfan]

Thank you gymtigermom. It really makes me feel bad that so many parents feel that their child or children they know are not being given a chance to succeed.