WAG Grace McCallum?…… (US Olympic Team Discussion)

[JBS]

In the history of time, no one has ever had their opinion changed on a message board.

Well... I've changed my mind based on replies and comments here.

When people start bolding and CAPITALIZING things... I like to chime in.

he should have explained it and owned it.

From the following article...

USA Gymnastics names a 2021 Olympic team that could out-medal 2016's 'Final Five'

The U.S. women's gymnastics team won nine of a possible 11 medals in Rio 2016. The 2021 squad, named Sunday night, could win as many — or more.

sports.yahoo.com

"It seemed appropriate to go in rank order," said USA Gymnastics high-performance coordinator Tom Forster, who headed the committee. "So that’s what we did.”

I may be simple... and this is just my opinion... but that is fully explained in my mind from that one sentence.

 

[JBS]

@gym_dad32608 & @Ken1978 Don't let me stop the conversation though... I'm loving it.

It is so great to have an actually heated discussion thread about elite gymnastics right here at ChalkBucket!

 

[JBS]

I never listened to them before, but checked out their latest. Almost every single thing they said was correct, in my view. Glad to see even relative kids can see how poor this choice was, and how bad Tom is at his job.

I have not listened before either... listening right now.

They are in their 30's and 40's though.

 

[gym_dad32608]

I may be simple... and this is just my opinion... but that is fully explained in my mind from that one sentence.

I respectfully disagree if you find that a complete explanation of why they selected who they did. Maybe if we were in old East Germany or communist Russia. If he genuinely had a strategy he could have spent another sentence or two and said, "we went with Grace because she had a stronger all-around that we felt would be more useful for the team in case issues arose with any other team members."

Just listened about halfway with Gymcastic and I don't know how you don't change your mind after listening. They have his interview where he said he was going with the best scoring team NOT rank order after championships. Whats worse which I didn't realize is that they didn't even select the complete number of alternates! Now what kind of strategy is that. Based upon the selection they went straight down the list 1-9. Why did he not take Shilese for the 5th alternate who was 10 in rank order?! Now if the team and individuals gets wiped out with Covid, we are down one athlete. Explain the brilliance there please.

 

[GYM0M]

@gym_dad32608 I think TF chose his words carefully. He said best scoring, not highest scoring. While we assume he meant highest when he said best, we really don’t know. I do personally feel that the team spot should have gone to Mykayla, and I don’t necessarily understand his reasoning, but I do respect his choices.

 

[JBS]

Just listened about halfway with Gymcastic and I don't know how you don't change your mind after listening.

Change my mind about that he didn't explain well enough... or change my mind about the team selection?

 

[gym_dad32608]

Change my mind about that he didn't explain well enough... or change my mind about the team selection?

Didnt explain well enough. Especially given the lack of full team of alternates

 

[Deleted member 26718]

Just listened about halfway with Gymcastic and I don't know how you don't change your mind after listening. They have his interview where he said he was going with the best scoring team NOT rank order after championships. Whats worse which I didn't realize is that they didn't even select the complete number of alternates! Now what kind of strategy is that. Based upon the selection they went straight down the list 1-9. Why did he not take Shilese for the 5th alternate who was 10 in rank order?! Now if the team and individuals gets wiped out with Covid, we are down one athlete. Explain the brilliance there please.

Astounding, isn't it? That podcast was so good I listened to it twice.

We have Tom on record, on audio, all but declaring they would be going with the computer's results for best team - or at the very least using that to direct their choices. Then, mysteriously, he did the complete opposite of what he said, going entirely with rank order 1-9, including all alternates.

I've thought more about how or why this could have happened. Perhaps he really is just totally incompetent. But the more I think about it, the more I believe he was pressured by people above his pay grade, to go with rank order and try to avoid any more scandals or lawsuits. To me, the biggest clue is his strange wording, referring to this AA rank order representing "the integrity of the process." It's absurd, and Gymcastic explains very clearly why AA ranking should not automatically translate to an Olympic team. BUT, if you're making a choice which is actually designed to convince everyone just how fair and above reproach you are, it makes sense you'd virtue signal with this kind of out-of-place language.

As for Riley not even being an alternate, combined with the conspicuous empty alternate spot, it smells. It smells of an organization punishing an athlete who dared to speak out.

 

[JBS]

Didnt explain well enough. Especially given the lack of full team of alternates

I guess maybe I am just used to these types of explanations in gymnastics.

On any given day... there is a very high probability of subjectivity (or even backtracking) in all parts of gymnastics. It's just the norm in all gymnastics: Elite... NCAA... even in club.

Would it have been nice to get a full and detailed explanation for this... yes.

However... while the athletes that were selected and the procedure to select are public knowledge... what actually happened and why they came to the decision are not required to be.

What I'm saying is that in my experience... that is considered a full and complete explanation in gymnastics.

There are certain things in the list below that they will never go over publicly...

2.2. List the discretionary criteria and explain how they will be used (if any):

a. In addition to any athlete(s) who may qualify to the team per 1.3.1.a. and 1.3.3. (by name), the Athlete Selection Committee will consider the following factors (in no particular order) when selecting the remaining 2020 U.S. Olympic Team members and potential replacement athletes [at least one (1) and up to five (5)]:

i. Final Results: The Final Results will be determined using combined results from both the 2021 2020 U.S. Women’s Gymnastics Championships (2 days of competition) and the 2020 U.S. Olympic Team Trials – Women’s Gymnastics (2 days of competition).

ii. Team needs and medal potential, any domestic and international performance and experience from 2016-20210 including type, frequency, routine hit percentage and caliber of the event(s).

iii. Composite strength of all the 2020 U.S. Olympic Team Members.

iv. Start values (D Score) on each apparatus of all potential team members achieved at any official international assignment or national event during the competitive season and/or qualification events listed in 1.2.1 and 1.2.2.

v. Execution (E Score) on each apparatus of all potential team members achieved at any official international assignment or national event during the competitive season and/or qualification events listed in 1.2.1 and 1.2.2.

vi. Consistency (percentage of hit routines) shown by the gymnast in 2021 2020 at any official international assignment or national event during the competitive season and/or qualification events listed in 1.2.1 and 1.2.2. • A hit routine is defined as a routine that does not include a large deduction or greater (as defined in the FIG Code of Points) on any single skill within the routine.

vii. World Class presentation – the strength, endurance, technical execution standard and artistic components commensurate with World and Olympic presentation.

viii. Physical capability to fulfill the training plan as directed by the High Performance Coordinator.

ix. Demonstrated professional attitude and ability to positively contribute to the team dynamic.

x. Any physical, training or performance factor, which might inhibit peak performance at the 2020 Olympic Games.

Did something in that list above change something and then rank order gave them the team they wanted... not sure? Did they truly just go with rank order because the team is so deep... not sure? Did they only pick 4 alternates because the actual team is only 4... not sure? Was there another reason... not sure?

One thing is for sure in this sport. I don't expect to ever really find out.

I am a huge fan of gymnastics and all the athletes... but I am also Region 4... so I love the team that was selected.

One more thing... while I don't know exactly what I would have done if it was my choice... I probably would not have selected this way.

 

[&bs]

I may be giving him too much credit, but maybe discretion is the better part of valour. Sure he could have come out and said ‘We chose Grace because we trust that she can perform a routine in team finals on every apparatus if necessary that will not loose us the team final. We could have chosen Mykayla who has technique that could potentially get absolutely hammered by International judges on everything other than vault and score in 11’s or 12’s even with relatively hit routines or Leanne (who I love by the way) or Kayla who have shown that they could potentially crumble under the pressure if put in that situation thus loosing us the gold for the benefit of a couple of tenths that will make no difference when we are winning by 4 marks.’ It may have been a truer explanation of the situation but at this point unnecessarily hurtful to the gymnasts when it is too late to change anything. Probably a conversation that should have been had with the coaches 12 months ago.

Disclaimer: This is coming from an Australian with no dog in the fight. I think Grace was the right choice. Being judged by Australia FIG judges Mykayla would have 0.5 body position deduction on most of her skills and many of her skills and almost all of her connections would not be credited. I have always loved the quality of Leanne’s gymnastics and would have loved to see her show the consistency to be named in the team.

 

[carolw53641]

Simone seemed off to me. She did not seem like an athlete who is peaking like Sunisa or Jordan. A couple times I even wondered if she was in a fair amount of pain (she winced both days when getting her ankles taped and she looked like she was in pain before floor yesterday, she struggled more than usual to contain her power - JMHO). Sunisa looked like a peaking gymnast but the commentators talked a lot about her ankle injury. Seems like Tom played it safe and chose the best AA'er instead of shoring up specific events...maybe this was the best decision for this quad.

I agree with your thought that Simone seemed off. When she started her beam routine she seemed very "mechanical" and did not appear happy. My concern is the enormous pressure as the "G.O.A.T" and the difficulty in all of her events is going to cause an injury.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

I agree with your thought that Simone seemed off. When she started her beam routine she seemed very "mechanical" and did not appear happy. My concern is the enormous pressure as the "G.O.A.T" and the difficulty in all of her events is going to cause an injury.

It was mentioned somewhere (perhaps in a fluff transition piece during the broadcast) that coming back to the Olympic trials was bringing back bad memories from Marta, and the abuse from the doctor whose name doesn't deserve to be mentioned.

Anyway she blew half the events and still won. I really have no concerns about her. Only thing that will knock Simone off of #1 would be an unexpected injury.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Why do people edit my posts without at least asking/telling me?

 

[skschlag]

Why do people edit my posts without at least asking/telling me?

I have PMed you as this is something that does not need to be a part of the thread.

 

[rjb123]

I have been mulling this over in my head for a while. I wonder if when TF said he was going to choose the "best scoring team" he really meant "at trials"- top four scored the "best" at that meet. I get the impression that TF chose his words very carefully and that he has had a good deal of oversight from the top at USAG. I personally suspect given all that USAG is facing that he was told to run down the list unless told otherwise. I get the sense that all of USAG has hitched their horse to Simone and are counting on her to bring it for the gold. I have little doubt she can and will do just that, but she is still human and I personally worry about her (God forbid) getting COVID or injured. (of course that is just the mom in me- I worry too much!) As long as she is there team USA has little to worry about and it makes it easy to run down the list. Now to just put her in a protective bubble until it is time to compete...

 

[Deleted member 26718]

I have been mulling this over in my head for a while. I wonder if when TF said he was going to choose the "best scoring team" he really meant "at trials"- top four scored the "best" at that meet.

Again, speculation as to what he said is not required.

Aired by Gymcastic podcast Jun 30 2021, time index 22:20 (entire segment starting 21:10)

Gymcastic: "Can you give any more insight into how the 2nd two positions for the (Olympic) team will be selected? Is it going to be closer to a 3-up 3-count scoring potential, or just the top 4 all-around?"

Forster: "Mmm... Well, no. It will be. Uh you know. Our... the job is to put forth the strongest team that we believe can hit 3-up 3-count. And so, by rule, the top two all-arounders will be automatically on the team. And then Pro Score has a whole query system that shows us every possible scenario of, uh, team formation to get the highest score. So we'll look at that to try to determine how to complete the team."

 

[TumbleTimes4]

Again, speculation as to what he said is not required.

Aired by Gymcastic podcast Jun 30 2021, time index 22:20 (entire segment starting 21:10)

Gymcastic: "Can you give any more insight into how the 2nd two positions for the (Olympic) team will be selected? Is it going to be closer to a 3-up 3-count scoring potential, or just the top 4 all-around?"

Forster: "Mmm... Well, no. It will be. Uh you know. Our... the job is to put forth the strongest team that we believe can hit 3-up 3-count. And so, by rule, the top two all-arounders will be automatically on the team. And then Pro Score has a whole query system that shows us every possible scenario of, uh, team formation to get the highest score. So we'll look at that to try to determine how to complete the team."

His answer leaves a lot of room for speculation. He mentioned that Proscore will show them the highest score, but he said they would look at it, not that they would absolutely use it. This is far from a smoking gun that Gymcastic wants it to be. Lots of different ways to interpret his words here.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

His answer leaves a lot of room for speculation. He mentioned that Proscore will show them the highest score, but he said they would look at it, not that they would absolutely use it. This is far from a smoking gun that Gymcastic wants it to be. Lots of different ways to interpret his words here.

Not when you pair it with his other statement.

"Between Grace and MyKayla, there were tenths of a point between them at championships, and this weekend over the two-day period Grace ended up in 4th and so that's how we decided. Even though the computer tells us MyKayla on the team would be a couple of tenths higher..." "we're so so fortunate that our athletes are so strong that I don't think it's going to come down to tenths of a point in Tokyo. We didn't feel like it was worth changing the integrity of the process simply for a couple of tenths." –Tom Forster

At the end of the day it's his decision, but why would he even bother looking at Proscore if using its results would "change the integrity of the process." Why would he even say he would look at it. He misled the athletes. You just can't spin it away.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

As soon as use the word discretionary criteria, they are letting you know they are going to do what they are going to do. And they don’t have to share the why’.

This is not new to the selection process for Elite level/Olympic sports. Especially gymnastic.

In fact it happens right down to little kids at the preteam level.

There are posts here on a continuing basi. My kid didn’t get asked to team, didn’t move up, was sent to xyz……

There will never be a completely transparent process in gymnastics

 

[Deleted member 26718]

Excuses, obfuscations and deflections.

Tom said one thing, then did another.

Sick of this. Believe whatever makes you happy. I'm tired of even dealing with humans in any way.