WAG Grace McCallum?…… (US Olympic Team Discussion)

[GYM0M]

@Ken1978 I look at it like this…I’m offered two positions. Position A pays $10,000 more per year, but with Position B I get more PTO, better insurance benefits, and more schedule flexibility. Even though Position A pays me more money, Position B is a better fit, even if I said I was going to take whichever position pays the highest.

 

[CLgym]

@GYM0M Not to put words in anyone’s mouth, but I don’t think the complaint is the selection of Grace per se (I *think* everyone can see there are benefits to selecting Grace — the “employee benefits” in your analogy above); I think the issue is more with communication. At least from my perspective. I mean, imagine USAG having poor communication and PR problems

 

[GYM0M]

@CLgym There will always be room to improve communication, but the formal selection process will always supersede anything spoken, IMO. The formal selection process gives the selection committee discretionary and subjective outs. My personal opinion is that selecting Mykayla over Grace, or naming Riley as an alternate over Shilese, or vice versa, could have been an even larger PR nightmare. I do think the selection committee took the easy out. I do feel for Mykayla as she would have been an Olympian if this was the procedure last time and hate that she’s dang’d by one and darn’d by the next.

 

[txgymfan]

@CLgym There will always be room to improve communication, but the formal selection process will always supersede anything spoken, IMO. The formal selection process gives the selection committee discretionary and subjective outs. My personal opinion is that selecting Mykayla over Grace, or naming Riley as an alternate over Shilese, or vice versa, could have been an even larger PR nightmare. I do think the selection committee took the easy out. I do feel for Mykayla as she would have been an Olympian if this was the procedure last time and hate that she’s dang’d by one and darn’d by the next.

There are hundreds or thousands of “would have been Olympians if….” If someone did‘t fall on one routine out of twelve for the male gymnasts, if a swimmer swam .03 of a second faster, if someone didn’t get hurt at training camp.

 

[GYM0M]

There are hundreds or thousands of “would have been Olympians if….” If someone did‘t fall on one routine out of twelve for the male gymnasts, if a swimmer swam .03 of a second faster, if someone didn’t get hurt at training camp.

Touché

 

[chalkbowl]

FYI for those interested: Link Removed

 

[JBS]

I am adding this to the site as an attachment as well.

 

[ewdot2480]

That Selection Report is pretty fascinating!

So the Women's 4-person team came down to McCallum and Skinner. They gave the individual spot to Skinner because of her medal potential on Vault. And I'm kind of surprised that Leann Wong - with a great Vault and FX - was not in the conversation for the 4-person team.

Most interesting to me is that the Men's 4-person team did not come down to 4th place finisher Sam Mikulak (more solid that we thought) and someone else ....... but Shane Wiskus and - not 5th place finisher Brandon Briones - but Cameron Bock, who finished quite a ways down the results placement. That is because Bock is so solid and needed, really, on PH, SR and HB (weaknesses for the USA). Bock was soooo close.

 

[IreneKa]

It's nice that finally got an explanation, I guess it makes sense too.
What I don't understand is, Riley is in 5 out of 6 best scoring Replacement Athletes teams. Why wasn't she named a 5th alternate?

 

[GymnastMomX2]

I heard a rumor Riley turned down an alternate spot, but who knows.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

I heard a rumor Riley turned down an alternate spot, but who knows.

I would really like substantiation of that, because as it stands it looks suspiciously like USAG is punishing Riley for speaking out against coaching abuse. Which would be just abysmal and quite frankly legally actionable. But I don't want to run with that if it can be disproven.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

@GYM0M Not to put words in anyone’s mouth, but I don’t think the complaint is the selection of Grace per se (I *think* everyone can see there are benefits to selecting Grace — the “employee benefits” in your analogy above); I think the issue is more with communication. At least from my perspective. I mean, imagine USAG having poor communication and PR problems

That's exactly the problem. I'm not some kind of MyKayla zealot. I haven't even followed any current gymnast's career all that long. I do find it cosmically unfair that MyKayla would have been on the 2021 team under 2016 rules, and on the 2016 team under 2021 rules, or barring that, she'd still have ostensibly been on the 2021 team if we'd simply had the 5 spots we had before and will have again.

But yes, the biggest problem is Tom's statements about his reasons -- they're total crap. There's no defending the nonsense "iNtEgRiTy" reasons he stated, or his saying one thing then doing another. But people defend it anyway. I just need to stop caring.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

That's exactly the problem. I'm not some kind of MyKayla zealot. I haven't even followed any current gymnast's career all that long. I do find it cosmically unfair that MyKayla would have been on the 2021 team under 2016 rules, and on the 2016 team under 2021 rules, or barring that, she'd still have ostensibly been on the 2021 team if we'd simply had the 5 spots we had before and will have again.

But yes, the biggest problem is Tom's statements about his reasons -- they're total crap. There's no defending the nonsense "iNtEgRiTy" reasons he stated, or his saying one thing then doing another. But people defend it anyway. I just need to stop caring.

You really don’t know that. It is my understanding only the first place finisher at trials is a guaranteed a spot. The rest while there have been guidelines and choices that typically happen is at the discretion of the selection committe.

 

[Ginger]

That's exactly the problem. I'm not some kind of MyKayla zealot. I haven't even followed any current gymnast's career all that long. I do find it cosmically unfair that MyKayla would have been on the 2021 team under 2016 rules, and on the 2016 team under 2021 rules, or barring that, she'd still have ostensibly been on the 2021 team if we'd simply had the 5 spots we had before and will have again.

But yes, the biggest problem is Tom's statements about his reasons -- they're total crap. There's no defending the nonsense "iNtEgRiTy" reasons he stated, or his saying one thing then doing another. But people defend it anyway. I just need to stop caring.

What 2021 rules? They were posted here already so I won't post them again. Just because they decided to go by order in the end doesn't mean these were 'rules'.
You asked before for, quote, 'complete lists of each of their individual event scores from both nights of trials, nationals and other competitions from this year'. Here you go:
US Classic Link Removed
Championship Link Removed
Trials Link Removed
Note that MyKayla execution score is always under 8 on everything but vault. She has high difficulty but will the international judges give her all credits? Here is a thread about what can happen to a gymnast D score in front of international judges
Link Removed

Again, MyKayla can only contribute on vault. It's tempting but if one of the gymnasts gets injured during team finals and they would end up using her on UB, BB and FX - well, not so tempting anymore.

The committee followed their written rules/selection process when chosing Grace IMO. Even Leanne or Kayla would have made much more sense than MyKayla for the team.

 

[Deleted member 26718]

What 2021 rules?

Why do I have to keep posting this. Tom is on record saying it would have "changed the integrity of the process" to pick anything other than the AA ranking for a few tenths difference. MyKayla came in 4th AA in 2016, so it looks pretty clear if Tom had been selecting in 2016 she'd have been on a 4-person team. Or if we'd had a 5 person team this year she'd have been on that. What team Marta would have chosen in 2021 is speculative though. Again, so tired of this. People don't listen, and argue just to argue.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Why do I have to keep posting this. Tom is on record saying it would have "changed the integrity of the process" to pick anything other than the AA ranking for a few tenths difference. MyKayla came in 4th AA in 2016, so it looks pretty clear if Tom had been selecting in 2016 she'd have been on a 4-person team. Or if we'd had a 5 person team this year she'd have been on that. What team Marta would have chosen in 2021 is speculative though. Again, so tired of this. People don't listen, and argue just to argue.

Again you don’t know what Tom would of done in 2016. Because they aren’t obligated to go rank order. He might of made a different decision because there were different gymnasts

 

[Ginger]

Why do I have to keep posting this. Tom is on record saying it would have "changed the integrity of the process" to pick anything other than the AA ranking for a few tenths difference. MyKayla came in 4th AA in 2016, so it looks pretty clear if Tom had been selecting in 2016 she'd have been on a 4-person team. Or if we'd had a 5 person team this year she'd have been on that. What team Marta would have chosen in 2021 is speculative though. Again, so tired of this. People don't listen, and argue just to argue.

No one argues. People share their opinions. Just because someone's opinion is different than yours doesn't mean people 'argue'.

But let's agree on one thing: Tom Forster is a horrible communicator. His 'a few tenths here, a few tenths there' comment opened an ugly big can of worms and caused an unnecessary drama.

But other than that, they obviously decided this team needed a solid all-arounder with strong vault and floor. Grace, Kayla and Leanne are these types of gymnasts, and I believe whoever ended 4th at trials would be named. However, Emma Malabuyo was 4th at Championship and if she came in 4th at trials too, I don't think she would be named because she doesn't check the 'strong vault and floor' box, just like MyKayla is an excellent vaulter but not so strong on floor and certainly not a solid all-arounder.

I actually start thinking that Tom's comment about 'integrity and going by the AA ranking' was about MyKayla, not about Grace. Especially if it's true that, in case an alternate is needed during the competition, they have to use the +1 gymnast first (I wasn't able to find anything official that would confirm it - if anyone knows where to find it please share), then another strong all arounder would make more sense for the +1 spot than MyKayla. But, just imagine the uproar if they passed MyKayla again (and I am glad they didn't, she made a phenomenal comeback and deserves every inch of her individual spot).

 

[Deleted member 26718]

Well there's more evidence I didn't bring up until this moment - ignoring Jade, since he had zero choice on that, didn't Tom not only use the trials AA ranking for the top 5 but also all of the alternates? And also Gymcastic said he has done this complete prioritization of AA ranking thing the whole time he's been in charge? Simply making the latest AA ranking into the world team? I didn't personally go and verify all of this, so that's why I didn't mention it before. If someone could either verify or debunk this I'd like to know. But if it's true then I don't know how you could give him a pass. Just seems like making up reasons to try to ignore a pattern of behavior.

AA ranking should be important, but there's supposed to be actual reasoning. Again I actually have no problem with the team, but with his stated "reasoning."

 

[Flippin'A]

The problem with all of this is that, much as we like to pretend there's an "objective" way to select a team, there isn't. What the best team is varies based on what you're prioritizing. Total medal count? Highest possible team score? Most versatile team who can step up in case of injury? In many situations those three teams are not going to be identical and any one of them can be justified as being the best. That's putting aside the issues like domestic overscoring and consistency issues.

I like Grace, I was rooting for Grace, and I was thrilled she got on the team. I also believe there's a definite argument where she makes complete sense as being the best gymnast for the job. My problem is you can argue for almost anyone retroactively. If USAG was really committed to transparency (which we know they're not) then they would outline in advance what qualities they're prioritizing in the team and after naming it, explain why the people they selected match their stated criteria.

I don't think Tom's an evil villain twirling his mustache, but I do think he's come across as a poor strategist, a poor communicator and dismissive toward fans. There have also been multiple gymnasts speaking out about feeling as though he didn't give them any attention or guidance in the run up to trials when we know he gave those things to others. Just because he's better than the previous administration doesn't mean we're obligated to keep calling him out on issues and he's going to find himself in a much worse position once Simone retires and a few tenths really might make a difference.

 

[Ginger]

Well there's more evidence I didn't bring up until this moment - ignoring Jade, since he had zero choice on that, didn't Tom not only use the trials AA ranking for the top 5 but also all of the alternates? And also Gymcastic said he has done this complete prioritization of AA ranking thing the whole time he's been in charge? Simply making the latest AA ranking into the world team? I didn't personally go and verify all of this, so that's why I didn't mention it before. If someone could either verify or debunk this I'd like to know. But if it's true then I don't know how you could give him a pass. Just seems like making up reasons to try to ignore a pattern of behavior.

AA ranking should be important, but there's supposed to be actual reasoning. Again I actually have no problem with the team, but with his stated "reasoning."

I honestly don't understand why you make such a big deal out of it.
The trials ended up certain way, and the results basically confirmed the current best US female gymnasts.
If the trials ended up different way - as I mentioned above and used Emma Malabuyo as an example (and I love Emma by the way - she, Suni and Kara are my favorites) - I believe they wouldn't have gone by the AA ranking.

I guess every international gymnastic competition is different and has different rules, but in most cases, the top AA gymnasts are chosen, especially if those top AA gymnasts performed well all season long. Unless there is a special need to be met - that was the case in 2016 when the team needed a solid AA gymnast with strong bars (Gabby Douglas, who then finished 3rd AA in the Olympic qualification and qualified for UB finals), or if there is a specialist with a very strong, world-class difficulty and execution (but then again, taking a specialist would depend of that particular competition rules, and sometimes it's too risky).