Parents Gym owner also a judge at meet

[flippingtogether]

We moved a couple of years ago to a part of the US where it is very common for coaches to judge their own kids, and parents to judge both their own kids and their kids' teammates. It has to be this way since there are lots of meets and not enough judges.

It was so,SO weird to me at first....but I am getting used to it now. There are two judges every event so that definitely makes people feel ok about it. And time and time again it all seems to everyone like the judging g is very fair. There are truly never any issues. Sometimes I feel like our own coaches and parents might be a bit tougher on our gym's kids, but usually the scoring seems right on the money.

I also love the fact that many of our coaches are judges simply for the additional knowledge they gather by being out and about. These coaches get out to other meets and see other gymnasts and get good ideas for everything from routine construction to leo designs (not copying, mind you, but inspiration).

It all is good in my mind, but took me a while to figure this all out.

 

[Muffinsmom]

Dd and her team have had the owner/HC of the club, (but not their coach) judge them at meets a couple of times, but not at our home meet. They hate it, lol. It makes them nervous and they feel she is a harsh scorer.

I am curious about the difference in scores between judges, though. Until this year, dd's scores between the 2 judges have been very similar, 0.1 or less apart, but this year, she has had one event at every meet where the scores have been quite different, like 0.5 difference. It's not always the same event either - one time it was floor, one time it was vault. I didn't realize until this year that you could have that much of a difference between judges.

Depending on the score the judges must be within a certain range of each other. For average scores 9.5 and higher the judges have to be within .2 of each other. For scores 9.0-9.475 the judges must be within .5. For scores 8-8.975 the judges must be within .7. For scores 7.975 and below the judges must be within 1.00.

 

[rosiekat]

We have some smaller local (boys) meets that are informal and not formally sanctioned meets. The last one we went to, our gym provided 2 judges - 1 coach and 1 senior level team member. (And it was funny, the senior team member was really tough on all the guys, not just ours.) The other judges were from other participating gyms. DS has only been in one USAG meet so far, and that had judges hired and provided for the occasion.

 

[gymbeam]

Depending on the score the judges must be within a certain range of each other. For average scores 9.5 and higher the judges have to be within .2 of each other. For scores 9.0-9.475 the judges must be within .5. For scores 8-8.975 the judges must be within .7. For scores 7.975 and below the judges must be within 1.00.

this is interesting! i never knew that. i thought it was .5 across the board. cool tidbit!

 

[Deleted member 18037]

this is interesting! i never knew that. i thought it was .5 across the board. cool tidbit!

yep
That actually makes me feel better

 

[3rd_time_around]

Just curious if this is normal for gymnastics. At a recent meet, the owner of the hosting gym was also a judge for the meet. This seems, in my humble opinion, to be a conflict of interest, but in gymnastics is this just common and normal?
All of the top 3 (sometimes 4) spots in all results were gymnasts from the hosting gym. coincidence or not?
Thank you.

Completely and totally normal.

 

[3rd_time_around]

It can be done. I don't like it. I understand it if judges are limited. But I think an effort should be made to judges that have no association with competitors at the meet.

This is nearly impossible. Most judges are also coaches, gym owners, parents, or grandparents of a competing gymnast.

 

[3rd_time_around]

We've seen it. Don't like it at all. Everyone talks and complains amongst themselves when they see it (coach/owner from gym X, judging gym X's gymnast at a meet where they are up against other gyms). I can't understand why any meet director would risk tarnishing the integrity of their meet like that - if I were up to me I'd go to great lengths to avoid it, but maybe it's impossible in some situations.

If there's a shortage of judges, maybe judges should start charging more for meets, thus making more people want to become judges, etc.

USAG sets the pay scale.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I agree that it is NOT a good thing! They know the kids' weaknesses and will score them accordingly!

No, they won't. They judge what they see in the moment. There sure are a lot of judging myths out there!

 

[Committed]

No, they won't. They judge what they see in the moment. There sure are a lot of judging myths out there!

I'm not saying they score what they see in practice.

 

[wandrewsjr]

I'm sorry, it was a rhetorical question... I do think there was some favoritism to the hosting gym. I would not say the winners didn't deserve it, but some amount of favoritism, yes.

Where the scores that the gymnasts from this gym owner/judges gym different (i.e. considerbly Higher) than what they received at previous meets? Should be fairly easy to quantify and document this favortism.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Well it did not help Alicia Sacramone in 2006 when the gym owner/coach judged floor at nationals and did not see that she was missing a core requirements that the prelim judges at worlds picked her up on. No event finals. Situations like this make me think that you are better to suffer through tough and perhaps unfriendly judging during the season because it forces you to refine and be critical about what you are doing. You can complain about bias or you can work hard to make sure there is nothing for them to take.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

This is nearly impossible. Most judges are also coaches, gym owners, parents, or grandparents of a competing gymnast.

Yes but they shouldn't necessarily be judging the meets their kid or gyms are at.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Situations like this make me think that you are better to suffer through tough and perhaps unfriendly judging during the season because it forces you to refine and be critical about what you are doing. You can complain about bias or you can work hard to make sure there is nothing for them to take.

If there is "tough unfriendly judging " vs not then there is harder judging vs not.

Again real or perceived bias, this is why it should be avoided when possible.

What Alicia Sacramone routine did or did not have is not relevant. Her coach shouldn't of been judging.

 

[Taxidriver]

For us it's completely normal for every competition we attend we normally have to supply at least one judge, so that's either one of my dd coaches, owner or team parent who have the necessary judging qualifications.
But then every team has to supply a judge so it's the same for everyone.
No favouritism goes on if anything the coaches know where my dd is likely to make mistakes and will tell them I'm going to be judging you make sure you focus on ......
If there was favouritism going on the coaches would see it and I'm sure wouldn't be happy and would do something about it one way or another

 

[Mommyo2az]

As a parent and judge in a state where very few judges are not coaches, owners, and/or parents of athletes - I can tell you that very likely for the situation to occur. I have judged a few meets this season that my daughters team attended. Not my daughter, not her level, but hear compulsory team mates.

Every judge must state their "affiliation" and when they are staffing meets they will try to avoid having you judge your team, child etc - but it is very difficult!

I judge what I see in the moment regardless of what team leotard the girl has on! Some times it goes so fast, I don't even realize that I knew the girl that I was judging. If you do a perfect routine and are on my daughters team - good for you! If you do a perfect routine and are not on my daughters team - good for you too!

 

[gymmomtotwo]

People who judge gymnastics are doing so because they have a passion for gymnastics. It is complicated as heck, and you have to constantly upgrade your knowledge with all of the rule changes etc. Though they do get paid it is not a career. The most likely people willing to go through the trouble and effort of going through the process are those people who love it. Owners, coaches, former gymnasts, parents. In the end, gymnastics is just a sport for children at most of the meets our kids go to. As in all youth sports, there are countless people who are needed to make this sport work for the kids. There are only so many judges to go around, and in many parts of the country, judges without connections to athletes on the floor are hard to come by. After sitting with judges at many a meet entering scores into the scoring system, they love to see good gymnastics and they reward the gymnasts that do so happily regardless of the gym they are from.

 

[mommyof1]

My daughter claims that her gym's owner was judging at one meet and swapped events with another judge mid-session to avoid judging her own team. As in, say the gym owner was judging floor, switched with one of the vault judges when her own team was up on floor, and then switched back. I am skeptical that this actually happened because it would mean that not all the gymnasts in the session were judged by exactly the same panels on the same events, which would mean that the scores wouldn't be 100% comparable. Is it possible that this really happened?

 

[GymDad9.9]

My daughter claims that her gym's owner was judging at one meet and swapped events with another judge mid-session to avoid judging her own team. As in, say the gym owner was judging floor, switched with one of the vault judges when her own team was up on floor, and then switched back. I am skeptical that this actually happened because it would mean that not all the gymnasts in the session were judged by exactly the same panels on the same events, which would mean that the scores wouldn't be 100% comparable. Is it possible that this really happened?

I guess in the mind of that particular judge/owner and the other judges, that might have been the lesser of two evils.

 

[MILgymFAM]

In t&t it is excessively common for the judges to be associated with the competing gyms- coaches, parents, even athletes. For the most part I've come to be ok with it even though it made me uncomfortable at first. There have been a few times when there was either favoritism or flat out mistakes that occurred, once in my DDs favor and couple of times not. The only time I ever brought it up was when it was in my DDs favor, and I was told to let it go and not worry about it. Judges are human, they make mistakes, and there is no instant recall.. but.. they are human, and I guarantee that some bring their biases to the table.